Hey All...back again for advise.
I was down doing my monthly on the batteries, and found one cell on one battery that was still full from last month and had SG that is in the toilet (VERY low).
This was first thing this morning and the SOC was about 85%, sun was just barely on the panels. One string (the interconnects between each battery) was getting about 8 DCA and the string with the jacked cell were all getting about 2 DCA. So there is imbalance...The voltage on all batteries was about 6.4 VDC and the one with the bad cell was 6.2 VDC (again this was early before any charging).
So, it looks like I have a bad battery. It's a 2 year old system and still seems to hold up well, but is the system going to take a beating if (when) I replace the battery?
What a PITA...what do you think, opinions??
Paul
You need to do a corrective equalization. And most important: equalize just the one string with the bad cell. If you want to equalize the other string(s) do them one at a time.
Of course, you need to charge the string before you equalize it. I recommend that you charge that string in isolation also. While in bulk charging (maximum current) check the voltages across each battery in the string.
Be sure to check that all of your battery interconnections are low resistance.
--vtMaps
You are suggesting all this EQ after the new battery is installed???
i think he meant on your present system.so you can get optimum performance and life out of your present system.guess thats what he meant when he said to use corrective equalization.
Hi Paul,
Sorry to hear of the low cell. BUT, just what is the SG of that cell, and what are the SGs of the other cells, in general?
You might want to separate the strings, and EQ the string with the low cell.
These things are all relative. Thanks Vic
Well, Surrette says I have a bad cell (based on my info submitted to Steve) and they are going to replace it under warranty. Crap, that's gonna take probably two months soup to nuts...with all the data and forms, yada,yada. In the mean time, I have a cell draining the system...
What a fugg-dup deal.
Surette says they will honor the bad battery but it will take about a month. SO...I bite it and go buy a new battery, I need one either way, and get here to do the install. I planned on doing it right, regardless of how much work. This is how it went.
Arrive, take the system down and start documenting all the SG in all cells.
String 1 (that had the bad cell/battery all the SG were about the same, 1.255 with the bad cell in the toilet.
String 2, (that was my good string) WTF!!!! IT"S frigg'n dead! SG on all cells won't even raise the bulb. Two weeks ago it was all 1.250-1.260!
WTF happened? What would kill the whole string? I about crapped myself. TOTALLY unexpected.
SO, I move on, strip off all interconnects and inspect. Two years in service and hardly any corrosion, but I clean and reassemble with never-sieze on the bolts and lots of red anti- corrosion on the lugs.
I did a charge/EQ on string 1 for about 4 hours and they all came up to 1.255-1.260 and stopped when they quit rasing... I unhooked...
Right now, I'm doing a charge then an EQ on the bastard string 2. I hope to hell it comes up...If not, I'm on a single string 400ah bank until I figure WTF is going on.
SO what do you guys think? COULD string 1 with the bad cell kill string 2?
Is it more likely string 2 has a bad battery and it killed itself?
My next step if string 2 does not come up is test each individual battery to see if there is a bad apple.
ANY SUGGESTIONS??
THANKS, Paul...
edited for language rs
Paul
I see no way one bad cell in an opposing string could completely kill the good string. I mean by nature the good string will likely get less charge current but completely dead? My findings generally on multi string battery banks when a cell goes bad the other cells in that string pick up the slack and raise up to match the good string. I would call Steve and see what he thinks. I think anyway you slice it it seems like a bum deal with the warranty. Makes me glad I use Trojan batteries. When there is a warranty issue I get a new battery the same day!!
Ryan
Hi Paul,
Sorry to read about your battery problems. Battery issues is the one area of RE that makes me very nervous. They nearly always end up costing a fortune, takes lots of time to resolve and raise stress and blood pressure levels.
The one month replacement delay just looks not right. Even if you pay the shipping it should be only a day or few days. They should send the replacement before you have to return the dud. Commercial users would never accept this sort of delay - meaning they would not consider buying them in the first place. Your supplier needs to get their act together >:(
I hope it doesn't come to it but if you end up needing a new battery bank then definitely go single string
dgd
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 25, 2013, 06:27:56 PM
I see no way one bad cell in an opposing string could completely kill the good string.
I think that if a bad string has a shorted cell, the good string can discharge itself into the bad string.
I don't have enough details to hazard a guess that this is Paul's situation.
--vtMaps
Shameless plug.
This has been discussed at some length in IRC off and on for years. A month ago I had a "bright idea" for an extensible way to accurately monitor an arbitary number of cells. I've designed the beast, layed the board and sent it off to be fabricated. Expecting it back soon. The basic idea is each board is a stand-alone subsystem that will monitor three cells. Differential amplifiers allow the on-board processor to do Analog conversion for each cell to about 5mV. Each board will talk to the next (and listen to the previous) so they all know what the entire string is doing. They will be able to give you a warning when one cell is outside your chosen limits from the others. It has a serial interface to send cell voltages to a monitoring/logging system. I also added temperature sensors for each cell.
Designed for lead-acid (2V cells), it'll take 2 boards to monitor a 12V system, 4 for a 24V and 8 for a 48V system. I've designed it so it should work for cells as low as 1.2V/cell, and as high as 3.6V/cell. Should work for NiMh, NiCd, lead/acid, lithium etc.
Haven't written the code for it yet, or even tested that the concept will actually work, but I'm aiming for under $10/cell, which I think makes it pretty cheap.
Well, after everything was back together yesterday, I charged and EQ'd string 1 and got it up to an acceptable level. Then charged and EQ'd the crap out'a string 2. got it up to ALMOST equal to S-1. Hooked them together and EQ'd them as a bank.
This morning S-2 (the problem string) held the charge and the bank, although not super equal in SG was up and appears to running. We're going to have a good sun day today which will be nice for a change. I still need to EQ some more, but I'm hoping this thing will level out.
Crap, I ran that big %@* genset for like 12 hours yesterday...sure glad diesel is cheap...""COUGH""
I still am worried about the charge imbalance I see between the cross-over cables between the two strings. I don't have a hard number right now but it is several amps. What's with that???
Paul
edited for language rs
Quote from: plongson on November 26, 2013, 09:54:01 AM
I still am worried about the charge imbalance I see between the cross-over cables between the two strings. I don't have a hard number right now but it is several amps. What's with that???
That's the inevitable outcome when you configure batteries in parallel. It is the reason why parallel battery configuration is not as optimal as single string configuration.
No two batteries are ever identical in their electrochemical characteristics, but they usually start out close enough to be used in a parallel configuration. When a cell inevitably goes bad (much too soon, in your case), it is NOT suitable for use in a parallel configuration... too much imbalance during charging, and (when not being charged) possibly one string discharging into another.
Some folks use a battery selector switch to deal with issues like yours. It would be easier to limp along on one string (while waiting for replacement) if you had a selector switch.
'Reconfiguration' is often touted as a good reason to have parallel batteries... the ability to reconfigure to a workable system if a battery goes bad.
My advice: limp along on one string for now.
--vtMaps
Quote from: plongson on November 26, 2013, 09:54:01 AM
Crap, I ran that big @^# genset for like 12 hours yesterday...sure glad diesel is cheap...""COUGH""
I still am worried about the charge imbalance I see between the cross-over cables between the two strings. I don't have a hard number right now but it is several amps. What's with that???
If you disconnect the batteries from charge sources, inverters etc so the two strings are just connected in parallel is there still current flowing from one string to the other?
Dgd
Hmmm, That's a good thought! I'll need to check that.
What I do is to at least try charging the individual battery with its own charger. In this case, you'd probably
have to just treat it as a 6 volt battery unless you have access to the individual 2 volt cells, then it could
possibly work much better for that one bad 2V cell.
Vtmaps suggested that while charging the batteries, check the voltage across the 6V batteries and see if
that one bad one is at a low or a higher voltage than the good batteries. This is what I was going
to say. Also, under charge, is the bad battery warmer than the others. If the bad battery is
hot and lower than 2V, then it may be shorted and make that string draw down your good string.
BUT, I wouldn't think that would drop your entire string down to 2V below normal charge so shouldn't
harm the entire bank at least.
What is your nominal bank voltage ? If it is 48V, you ~could~ remove the bad 6V battery from the
one string and remove a good battery from the good string and just operate at 6 volts less than
nominal for a while and adjust your charge voltage accordingly.
boB
PS Good ! I see...
"Battery Bank Surrette 800aH @ 48VDC 38,400 watt hrs."
The Magnum should work at the lower voltage. ( I think. )
String 2 is holding steady so far. It's only a few points in SG below S1 but still needs some EQ I'm thinking. At least with Thanksgiving here, we'll be running the genset more and I'll get some good charge time.
This stuff always happens when you need it most...like Thanksgiving.
The bad battery I replaced was naturally in the back and the hardest to get to. I installed a Unistrut trolley to pick it out with a come-along and I'll use it to hang a outdoor shower bag for watering duties (seen ready to hang in the background).
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa471/plongson/junk/IMG_10592_zps64df1a86.jpg) (http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/plongson/media/junk/IMG_10592_zps64df1a86.jpg.html)
Quote from: RossW on November 26, 2013, 05:58:19 AM
A month ago I had a "bright idea" for an extensible way to accurately monitor an arbitary number of cells. I've designed the beast, layed the board and sent it off to be fabricated. Expecting it back soon. The basic idea is each board is a stand-alone subsystem that will monitor three cells. Differential amplifiers allow the on-board processor to do Analog conversion for each cell to about 5mV. Each board will talk to the next (and listen to the previous) so they all know what the entire string is doing. They will be able to give you a warning when one cell is outside your chosen limits from the others. It has a serial interface to send cell voltages to a monitoring/logging system. I also added temperature sensors for each cell.
Designed for lead-acid (2V cells), it'll take 2 boards to monitor a 12V system, 4 for a 24V and 8 for a 48V system. I've designed it so it should work for cells as low as 1.2V/cell, and as high as 3.6V/cell. Should work for NiMh, NiCd, lead/acid, lithium etc.
Ross,
This looks interesting - early detection of a suspicious or failing cell. I assume its main function is to protect the remaining good cells and especially in parallel string configurations where we don't want a failing cell in one string flattening the other string (as may be the case with plongson's system).
Please add me to the customer list
dgd
Quote from: dgd on November 30, 2013, 07:46:42 PM
This looks interesting - early detection of a suspicious or failing cell. I assume its main function is to protect the remaining good cells and especially in parallel string configurations where we don't want a failing cell in one string flattening the other string (as may be the case with plongson's system).
Well, a long list of friends who've suffered a loss of a cell, or "found" a cell way out of whack. (myself included).
Majorly expensive 24-bit ADC and many-channel multiplexors and all the grunt to process it wasn't appealing.
The boards turned up a couple of days ago (caught me off guard), so I ordered the rest of the bits I needed on thursday.
Friday the resnets and processors turned up (only).
I've assembled what I can of two boards: one (the small one) is just a 3-cell board. The larger one is the same 3-cell board PLUS the isolated RS232 interface for the logging machine (if used). Two pics, one of either side. Hopefully the rest of the bits will turn up in the next few days and I can start writing some code...
(http://house.albury.net.au/28nov2013/100_6104.JPG)
(http://house.albury.net.au/28nov2013/100_6105.JPG)
The longer connector is 0/2/4/6V (3 cells), and the optional 3 temperature sensors. (one per cell)
The two 2-pin connectors on the short end are for the daisychain in and out connections to next/previous board.
RossW, looks like you might also be waiting for a 9 pin D-sub connector.
Hope when you get all your "bits" that they are in the right order.
What make of resistor networks did you use ? I wish there were res networks
that were cost effective against lots of individual resistors.
boB
Quote from: boB on December 01, 2013, 08:52:41 PM
RossW, looks like you might also be waiting for a 9 pin D-sub connector.
Yes. And that thing is bigger than the rest of the board together!
Quote
Hope when you get all your "bits" that they are in the right order.
Me too :) I only used the 1N914 diodes because I have a few thousand left from my old prototyping days.
Quote
What make of resistor networks did you use ? I wish there were res networks
that were cost effective against lots of individual resistors.
I have built this to use 0.5% Vishay resnets for the opamp feedback and dividers, but at $1.40 each or something stupid it was hard to justify. So I used ordinary Bournes resnets, even in my low quantity prototyping application they came out at about 2.6 cents each - and are quite frugal with how little board space they need!
I layed the board so each opamp uses 4 resistors in the one resnet - hoping that they would all drift equally together with time and temperature. I measured several of them, and while nominally 10K, they were all within 100R of each other (so basically, about 1%) - I figure I can always swap them out if need be, but at this stage, 1% is perfectly fine! (and certainly for prototyping!)
In the back of my mind is being able to store calibration constants in FLASH (I have 256 bytes of NV storage), so each of the 3 A-D channels could be calibrated after manufacture, if required. (I already did this on my tracker controller. Saved a bunch of trimpots to set gain and offset!)
Surrette isn't impressing me in the support and warranty department. I sent off all the required paperwork to Steve last week and still no feedback. I purchased and installed a new battery on my own just because I thought this might happen. Can you imagine sitting around in an off grid system in the winter waiting for a warranty battery?
What a bunch of hooey. Lack of service like this, mostly the lack of any feed back will not make me a return customer.
Someone hast's be proud of me, I didn't even use any expletives this time to describe Surrette...LOL
Good Boy... now sit and behave ::)
Quote from: plongson on December 02, 2013, 08:26:42 PM
What a bunch of hooey. Lack of service like this, mostly the lack of any feed back will not make me a return customer.
Everyone I know that has had a failed battery
always never bought the same batteries again.
For most people it just too risky as confidence in them is reduced
dgd
Quote from: plongson on December 02, 2013, 08:26:42 PM
Surrette isn't impressing me in the support and warranty department. I sent off all the required paperwork to Steve last week and still no feedback. I purchased and installed a new battery on my own just because I thought this might happen. Can you imagine sitting around in an off grid system in the winter waiting for a warranty battery?
What a bunch of hooey. Lack of service like this, mostly the lack of any feed back will not make me a return customer.
Someone hast's be proud of me, I didn't even use any expletives this time to describe Surrette...LOL
Well all I can say is I have learned from your lesson and will "NEVER" use a Surrette battery again in my life time. I need a manufacturer that is behind me when the lights go out. My local battery distributor stocks the Trojan brand and will "Give" ma a new one same day no questions asked (Well as long as it should be warrantied) then argues with Trojan for me. Not that I think Trojan is the best battery but I sure do think my distributor is one of the best and that's important.
I say stand on the mountain top and holler how bad Surrette sucks! I think at this point they owe you a refund as you have already bought the replacement!
Ryan
I have been using Interstate for years due to their excellent dealer network support. They have always supported their product even when far away from home. Interstate started as a local California firm but has been bought by Johnson controls and now are nationwide. Their L-16 are manufactured by U.S. Battery Co (another unit of Johnson controls) but have the Interstate label and dealer support network. They have stock on the shelf and deliver the next day. Interstate warehouse in Salinas, CA has 6 L-16's on shelf at all times for user support. The same for Trojan , great support, and I believe that they are still an independent company totally focused on the premium battery market. RE and traction battery is there base.
Hey Paul,
Very sorry to hear of the bad cell, and the disappointing response from Surrette.
If you bought the original Surrettes from a dealer, then would hope that the dealer would handle the warranty details for you.
Have been very happy with the Surrette batteries here, and when noticed early on that one cell had been damaged in shipping, Surrette sent a replacement cell (dry) to me immediately. They even offered to split the freight costs 50-50 with me (usually, warranty batteries are FOB, NS, where the customer pays freight).
Do not know what to say, but seems that you have been very conscientious about care and maintenance of your batteries.
Good Luck, Vic
I emailed Steve at Surrette this morning and got a pretty quick reply that all my forms and email went into his trash bin. I needed to resend everything for him to evaluate. At least I got a reply, that's a good sign. If they honor the bad battery will even be better...
Ya, it's just my luck, I baby those batteries and even tuck them in at night with a little teddy bear, and what do they do...go caus'n trouble...HaHa.
What's got me lay'n awake at night now is the charge imbalance between strings. There is actually a couple of amps difference from the interconnect on string 1 and string 2. Add them together and you get the amperage on the big feed line to the inverter.
All the interconnects and crossovers were meticulously removed, cleaned and gooped up with that wazoo anti-corrosion stuff in a can. There is no connection problem there, it just has to be the resistance in the batteries (I'm out on a limb here and guessing).
When I left on Saturday everything looked great, it snowed yesterday and the panels were slabbed with snow all day today (watching from IP cams on my phone). Hope the snow slides off and the sun gets it going tomorrow. Got the Kubota dialed in just in case...it was in the teens' all day.
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa471/plongson/junk/North_Solar_Cam_2083474621_zps5b2ebe12.jpg) (http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/plongson/media/junk/North_Solar_Cam_2083474621_zps5b2ebe12.jpg.html)
Hi Paul Good News!?!
Well anyway, I thought I would share a pic of our recent, all time 24 hr record snowfall here in Williams Lake.
click on the paper clip to get a good view.. don't know how to insert a bigger pic like you did...?
(//)
HOLY CRAP! Now that's some snow! It looks like it would be tough to even get out and going in that stuff.
I'm in Las Vegas right now where it's a bitterly cold 40*f. I have to go to Ft.Dodge Iowa next week and that's not going to be any fun but cold is one thing, that white stuff is just plain miserable.
I've posted this link before, but if you have nothing better to do and want to waste some time, click on http://barkingdoglodge.com (http://barkingdoglodge.com)
There are some IP cams and a link to the Magnum MagWeb inverter page. It's a lot more interesting during the day. This is one way I keep an eye on things when I'm on the road.
We went to bed at ~ 9 pm and woke up at 7 am to what you see... and it kept coming for the rest of the day albeit at a bit slower rate. It was freezing rain when it started so a bear to get the vehicle doors open... not much overnight and then another 2 inches of sloppy wet stuff! took 3 days of scooping to clear it all away so I could get tot the quad, and attach the snow blade...
cold? it's ~Zero F right now and clear skies, so it will drop a bit lower (15 below) overnight. Nice part is when the temp drops this low or down to 30 below, we get clear skies, with no wind, and it counteracts the cold, in the daytime that is..., snow just sublimates and the ice slowly just disappears, no slush etc.
My dog (Chow/Collie) keeps the deer away so would do well on sheep, no barking till he is at the heels, he'll get those Big Horns off your 'lawn'.
Quote from: plongson on December 04, 2013, 07:55:17 PM
What's got me lay'n awake at night now is the charge imbalance between strings. There is actually a couple of amps difference from the interconnect on string 1 and string 2. Add them together and you get the amperage on the big feed line to the inverter.
All the interconnects and crossovers were meticulously removed, cleaned and gooped up with that wazoo anti-corrosion stuff in a can. There is no connection problem there, it just has to be the resistance in the batteries (I'm out on a limb here and guessing).
Good guess. The internal resistance of the batteries is greater than that of the cables. You can make your cables perfect but the VARIATION in the resistance of the individual batteries will steer the current.
At first there is normal variation, but over time the small imbalance in charging caused by the small variation will cause uneven use of the parallel strings, which will cause further variation in the resistance of the batteries which causes further imbalance of the current flow... Positive Feedback! Go back and reread Reply #12 in this thread. Sooner or later... it happens.
The battery string with the higher current flow warms up more than the other string. This lowers its internal resistance which causes it to receive even more of the current flow, which makes it warmer which lowers its resistance which makes it receive more current... Positive Feedback!
Its amazing that parallel batteries can work as well as they do. Here's how its done: with some high energy density batteries (lithium, for example) a battery management system (BMS) is used... each cell has its own battery charger. That solves the problem of charge imbalance. These cells must have a BMS because they will explode if overcharged.
Flooded Lead Acid batteries are remarkably tolerant of abuse and rarely have a BMS. No two cells are identical, and the manufacturer calls for a charging protocol that will charge more than 99.9% of their cells, even though that means
most of their cells are being overcharged. These flooded batteries take a lot of abuse!
If you're lucky you will find that you can reduce the absorb time or voltage, and keep all your cells charged, and you will have a longer than average lifespan for the battery. The presence of a weak cell will determine the life of the battery, so a battery manufacturer must know what percent of their cells are on the 'weak' tail of the production curve. Note that if a cell has a 0.02% chance of failing before the warranty period, a battery with 3 cells has almost 3 time the chance of failing before the warranty period.
The more cells you have, the greater the chance you have a weak cell that will result in a shorter life for the whole bank. Therefore, the fewer cells you have, the better. Of course, reducing system voltage to 2 volts is not practical. What is practical is reducing the number of cells to the minimum: one string, at whatever voltage.
--vtMaps
Arggggh...
Nothing like learning from experience :( You can read about this stuff forever but you really start to understand it when you live it. What a pain, and the worst of it is, it seems no matter what you do or how obsessed you are you're still at the mercy of the batteries. So what happens now? You just live with these things until they won't charge or discharge? Within reason, is there anything that can be done to extend the life? With just two years on the set, I'll bet I'm lucky to make five years, man that's pretty pricey power.
I have a neighbor that hasn't a clue about batteries, runs them down to the inverter cutoff nearly everyday and thinks it's normal. They just keep plugging away on the same set. I guess ignorance is bliss, and what you don't know won't hurt you.
It's like we're on the Titanic and she's leaking and going down. It's gonn'a sink and there is nothing that can be done but hope you get a lifeboat.
Paul
Paul, this thread is right on topic for you, ....and a bunch of the rest of us.
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1528.msg12874;topicseen#new
Here's a follow-up...It looks like Surette is going to warranty the bad S-530 battery based on the info I produced. I don't have the money yet...but the emails have been flowing and it was apparently approved. Fortunately for me, I was able to get a replacement in Las Vegas. It shipped from California and I hauled it to Utah but at least it's in...Just keeping my fingers crossed now. Its taking about two weeks.
I'm off to read the link right now WestBranch...
THANKS!
Quote from: plongson on December 05, 2013, 09:51:34 AM
Arggggh...
Nothing like learning from experience :( You can read about this stuff forever but you really start to understand it when you live it.
It might be a good time to
reread this: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?14674
--vtMaps
FWIW...I'm still waiting on a warranty check from Surrette for the battery they deemed junk in early November. I can't believe this is the way they do business.
Talked to Steve and he said he is in the tech side of things and Mary in the money side handles these things...
Ya, I know...Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, Hanukkah, Quanza throw in a birthday somewhere and you have dozens of excuses to not cut a warranty check for $400.
Grumble, Grumble, Gumbel...
Does anyone here see an advantage to taking a gamble with these guys? Usually a company that cannot pay its bills is on the rocks, maybe there is more to this than I think...
Hi Paul, how is that bank doing with the new cell?
HNY too!
So far...Fingers double crossed...the system is back to performing great. It will support my setup just fine in these short winter days and long nights. Getting the gravity to 1.265 (as listed on the battery tag) is all but impossible but I do come close. I do have some cells that are always a few points lower, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. No amount of charging or EQ'ing will drag them up to the desired mark...
We just keep trucking along in this imperfect world of off-grid solar...LOL :) :) BUT GUESS WHAT, the days are getting longer...HaHA
Paul
Another little followup on this thread.
The replacement battery seems to have fit in just fine. As you may know, it was right at two years old when it failed and lost a cell. So far all is well...but
It failed the first week of November, I contacted Surrette and after filling out the required forms, they honored the warranty claim. Because I needed a battery NOW for the system. I purchased, from an authorized Surrette dealer, a replacement S-530 battery. Then came the fun part...getting reimbursed.
Long story short, it took 5 long months to get my $400 back. First it was Surrette dragging their feet for 4 months then the authorized dealer stringing me along for another month.
Actually I was very pleasant and understanding through the whole ordeal, full well knowing they all had me at a disadvantage until I got my cash. A gentle reminders every few weeks doesn't seem unreasonable.
If it had not been for my tenacity with calls and email every couple of weeks, I'd never seen the $$. I also feel I was being taken for a ride and both parties had no intention of coughing up the money and hoped I'd just go away. I personally think there is no excuse for this kind of service, no matter how busy you think you are.
Guess what, my next battery won't be a Surrette and I wont purchase a Trojan from this YaHoo locally either.
Paul
Quote from: plongson on February 28, 2014, 11:16:30 AM
I personally think there is no excuse for this kind of service, no matter how busy you think you are.
Guess what, my next battery won't be a Surrette and I wont purchase a Trojan from this YaHoo locally either.
Paul
Paul;
Agreed this is unacceptible behavior from a supplier or manufacturer but seems to be the norm these days.
I agree to vote with your $$. Locally we have a few companies (non RE) that drag their feet or simply refuse to provide customer service. We simply do not buy from them unless there is absolutely no other option.
Got WildBlue sat internet a few months back and the installer / order taker messed up and got us on the Obama net economic recovery plan which I specifically said I was NOT interested in. They had to cancel the subscription and redo the order and WildBlue charged us for unreturned equipment that we never had because the installer reused the same gear for the correct subscription.
Upshot was I had to open a case with my card company and it took almost 4 months to get reimbursed. Letters from us, the installer explaining the issue. Many promises from WildBlue to reimburse us all just a tactic to get you to give up. $400 was just too much to walk away from for us. Even at minimum wage it took more than $400 worth of time to sort it out. Absolutely none of it my fault.
Luckily, I learned my lesson another time and immediately filed a claim on the charge otherwise my window of opportunity would have vanished to force them to give us our money back. I think that is their method of operations, put you off until you have no way to force the issue and you never communicate with the same person twice (or one that can do anything). Luckily the access is pretty good / fast and reliable. Locked in on a contract so glad it works as advertised.
Glad you got it sorted out.
Tom
That is very true all of it no wonder big brand names keep crumbling because dishonesty = failure in the long term -Karma will catch up with you eventually.
I am also a musician or would like to think i am. The quality of the products i have seen for the past 10 years or so is of very poor quality and next to useless customer support,next to useless warranties (which the charge ridiculous sums for additional years) and poor repair feedback,assistance and service. all useless.I don't buy certain brands anymore even if they are better than the cheaper less better ones because at the end of the day i need a product that will do the job,of decent durability and one that is of a good price.I would say that's pretty unprofessional of Surrette given the price for their batteries.I was anticipating to getting some surrettes based on the features but now i am sure i wouldnt.It would be nice if midnite solar go in the battery business too. ::) ::). I know i am over the edge here a little , but Midnite solar is one of the best where quality and customer service i have ever came across.
+10 A+++ x10 for Midnite staff and products. I totally agree!!!
I've got response from email and thread post ON A MAJOR HOLIDAY when I needed help!!!
Unbelievable service...
Paul