So with the WBjr we now have battery SOC in % available. boB has the battery meter well under way. Anyone with a WBjr here is the Beta code http://www.midnitesolar.com/firmwareReport.php?firmware_ID=3&firmwareProduct_ID=1&act=edit (http://www.midnitesolar.com/firmwareReport.php?firmware_ID=3&firmwareProduct_ID=1&act=edit)
Anyone without a WBjr and wants to participate please Email me ryan@midnitesolar.com
I will ask boB to come on and explain how to set up the battery meter. Also the new Local App has SOC% showing on it/
Ryan
When will the update for the local app come out that can display this new information?
Should be available now? I will check with Andrew
Sweet!
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 24, 2014, 12:00:08 PM
Should be available now? I will check with Andrew
From within the Local App it says no updates available?
Tom
Here is the new Local App http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.34.air (http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.34.air)
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 24, 2014, 06:04:47 PM
Here is the new Local App http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.34.air (http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.34.air)
the file is named 0.3.34 but the install dialog it says it is 0.3.33?
I let it install so see what happens.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on January 24, 2014, 06:20:38 PM
the file is named 0.3.34 but the install dialog it says it is 0.3.33?
I let it install so see what happens.
Tom
Well, the version that file installs is definitely 0.3.33.
FYI
Tom
I think Andrew forgot to increment the version number. Look under the status screen in the Status window and see if you see SOC. It may be blank until you install the newest firmware though
I just downloaded the new local app (as mentioned) I see no difference or mention of SOC in the status window though I havnt installed the new beta firmware but will tomorrow. Will report how I get on .
Isn't SOC almost imposable to predict with any accuracy especially on lead acid cells.?
Kurt
Here is a screen shot of that same app on my laptop
Quote from: offgridQLD on January 25, 2014, 05:30:13 AM
Isn't SOC almost imposable to predict with any accuracy especially on lead acid cells.?
I think its like the gas gauge in your car... The only time you are
certain of its accuracy is when you have just filled up the tank, or when you run out of gas.
--vtMaps
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 25, 2014, 06:19:10 AM
Here is a screen shot of that same app on my laptop
Sorry, something is screwy. I do not see that. I upgraded the Classic yesterday(Classic Rev: 1735), installed the Local App from your link after that and I simply do not see the SOC % anywhere?
Anyway, that makes 2 of us out here with the same issue I guess.
Just FYI.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on January 25, 2014, 07:57:01 AM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 25, 2014, 06:19:10 AM
Here is a screen shot of that same app on my laptop
Sorry, something is screwy. I do not see that. I upgraded the Classic yesterday(Classic Rev: 1735), installed the Local App from your link after that and I simply do not see the SOC % anywhere?
Anyway, that makes 2 of us out here with the same issue I guess.
Just FYI.
Tom
Tom
You do not see SOC in that window like the picture above? I am not sure if Andrew is reading something to see if it has the WB set up? With the new firmware if you go to the WBjr status screen and push the right soft button you can set the battery capacity and battery efficiency. Try setting that and then see if it shows up?
Ryan
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 25, 2014, 08:40:05 AM
Tom
You do not see SOC in that window like the picture above? I am not sure if Andrew is reading something to see if it has the WB set up? With the new firmware if you go to the WBjr status screen and push the right soft button you can set the battery capacity and battery efficiency. Try setting that and then see if it shows up?
Ryan
That little detail is the "issue". I get SOC % now. I left the efficiency at 61% as I don't have a clue what mine is. It was set for 0 AH and 61% eff. by default.
Typical it was a small item. Maybe you mentioned this and I forgot / missed it?
Got it now.
Thanks.
Tom
Tom
Sorry for the lack of the details. Glad you got it going. I suspect boB will release a "How To" as soon as we get the last couple details nailed. We are adding Temperature Compensation to AH Capacity now and then it should be pretty good.
Ryan
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 25, 2014, 09:19:00 AM
Tom
Sorry for the lack of the details. Glad you got it going. I suspect boB will release a "How To" as soon as we get the last couple details nailed. We are adding Temperature Compensation to AH Capacity now and then it should be pretty good.
Ryan
Ryan;
Glad to help find stuff! That is the fun part of testing.
How does lifetime AH affect the SOC setting if at all?
More questions than answers
At least we found it pretty quick. Like DGD mentioned, I am curious about the glyphs /runes on the corner of the cover?
Thanks.
Tom
My default efficiency was 10% but Tom was 61% ... should I move it to something other than 10%? I want to stay the Trimetric defaulted to 94% when I had it before the WBjr.
If you are talking about battery efficiency, I believe most new batteries will be in the 90 - 99% range and most around 95% + from what I have read. I used 97% on my XBM when it was operating.
As Vic says YMMV
Thanks Westbranch. I set it to 94% because that worked well with the Trimetric.
Again please a plea for concurent MNGP/localapp updates. Lites users will not be able to test or use these features otherwise. Still waiting for days between bulk, and WbJr EA... in particular.
So is the SOC % just calculated on WBjr. net (-) amps divided battery capacity or does voltage come into play somewhere? Everything appears to be up and functional here.
Hi guys...
SOC % is based on Amp-Hours out and in only. A good starting point efficiency is 94%.
Capacity should be whatever your battery label is, but if you know different, set it to that.
One day it may have auto-capacity detect over many cycles but right now it doesn't.
Remember that the regular Amp-Hours on the 2nd status screen and the NET Amp-Hours are NOT
part of SOC%. However, you may find a tweak to have the NET amp-hours reset at full (absorb to float)
There is only SOC % and remaining Amp-Hours so far.
When the Classic goes from Absorb to Float (naturally or forced), the SOC % will go to 100% and
the amp-hours remaining will reset to the capacity entered in the setup screen.
Also, if you have just turned on the Classic and it has not gone to Float yet, the SOC % number (100% ?)
will be blinking/flashing on and off once per second. After it goes to Float the first time, it will stay on
solid to indicate that it is "believable"...
boB
Quote from: boB on January 26, 2014, 01:17:03 AM
When the Classic goes from Absorb to Float (naturally or forced), the SOC % will go to 100% and
the amp-hours remaining will reset to the capacity entered in the setup screen.
Also, if you have just turned on the Classic and it has not gone to Float yet, the SOC % number (100% ?)
will be blinking/flashing on and off once per second. After it goes to Float the first time, it will stay on
solid to indicate that it is "believable"...
And if I were to run my generator at night and get my batteries fully charged, how would I reset the SOC? Can the classic be forced to float at night?
--vtMaps
Sorry about the SNAFU on the Local App update. My Internet went out on Friday and I didn't get a chance to post the update. I will get the latest LA update up as soon as possible. Posting this from the coffee shop around the corner...
-A
Loaded up the firmware update and local status update on two different classics and it all went okay. Does the Whizbang reset value every day make a difference on this calculation ? It looks like the SOC will only use the other values that don't change . So that means it will have to balance out positive before the SOC will read ?
Glad to see this update - thanks
I am really liking WhizBang Jr. window in the 0.3.36 local app update. Thanks all!
yes, it is a nice addition :)
However, I would really like to see a battery meter display in a similar style to the local app.
Perhaps a screen with analogue meters for battery voltage, battery amps in/out using a -200 to zero to +200 amps or some other scalable units and battery SOC% meter. All with digital figures under the scale as per present local app.
But would having this as a separate app mean there would be a problem with the Classic that talks with the WBjr because of the 'just one' tcp connection?
Ideally one local app per Classic then this one battery status display.
Also are there some modbus registers that make this soc information available?
dgd
The SOC% updates to full 100% when the Classic goes from absorb to float.
There should be an update in just a few days with the SOC stuff in it.
Yes, there are registers with all the info in them. Will also update the modbus document in just a couple of days.
boB
Quote from: boB on January 28, 2014, 03:33:55 AM
The SOC% updates to full 100% when the Classic goes from absorb to float.
How would I get it to reset to 100% if I charge the batteries at night with generator?
--vtMaps
The Classic should still see the elevated voltage and its internal timers are still counting so it should still trigger a Float even though it is showing Resting
Ryan
BIG thanks to boB, Ryan and MN crew for the WBjr updates and now SOC% from the Classic is just excellent - and addictive too. I had a holiday yesterday and the day just disappeared as I was watching the MNGP WBjr display or the local app while also monitoring my KID.
And here was me mistakenly thinking progress was at a leisurely glacial pace :) :-X it been just weeks since the WBjr appeared and SOC% display already!
Whats next BIGKID next Q and MN Inverters Q after ;)
On the plus side a long time off gridder was visiting, he has an Etracer MPPT 60 amp controller and a Morningstar 60 amp MPPT controller with 3kw array into 24v bank. He liked the C150 and local app so much he bought one with MNDC box, WBjr, shunt etc..
dgd
Just updated our classic 150 to the latest firmware to take advantage of the new SOC readings. Update went smooth . I have set my capacity and eficancy . I did the update just on sundown around 6pm today. The battery's were on float and SOC was showing 100% but charge controller went to resting soon after it was up and running.
It's just after 8:00pm and we are sitting on 51.3v and 98% SOC ;D. It will be interesting to see the SOC % first thing in the morning. I am guessing it will be well above 90%.
Anyhow its a nice feature and my wife likes looking at a % number as she can relate to it rather than asking me how flat the battery's are based on a voltage reading. Thanks for getting it out there.
I am guessing I might need to do some tweaking to get it dialed in , 6 year old 1330ah cells at c100 but only 800AH at c10. Based on that I put them down as 1000AH based on the typical average loads they see. efficacy I put down as 95%. Will see how I go.
kurt
I will be releasing even newer code and local app today. The new classic code adds 2 neat things
A- Temperature compensation for Battery capacity Adjustable from 3% to 0, Default is usually 1% per degree C below or above 25C the classic subtracts below 25 and adds above
B- Adjustable Temperature for the Neutral point. Typically it is always 25C as the Neutral point but there have been a couple people ask for it to go to say 30C so it is now adjustable and it covers the Step A above as well as Temperature compensation for the voltage.
Here is a link to the firmware until I get it on the website http://www.fusion.midnitesolar.com/MidNiteSolarUpdate_1755_2-1-2014_v4.11.exe (http://www.fusion.midnitesolar.com/MidNiteSolarUpdate_1755_2-1-2014_v4.11.exe)
Here is a link to the newest Local App that has most of the setup and some extras for the SOC meter http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.37.air (http://kb1uas.com/HighVoltage/LocalApp/LocalStatusPanel.v0.3.37.air)
Thanks for the update.
I noticed last night just after nidnight that the Remaining Ah was showing 65534Ah and 100% :o I'm not sure what happened as it was set at 1000ah and was counting down fine at about 96% and 960 or so AH. So Im not sure what happened. Could it be something to do with having ( night auto reset enabled on my classic)?If it is I need this feature on as its very handy in case there is a issue when I am not at the house so the classic can reset ans sort any hangups out itself.
Anyhow I upgraded to the new local app this morning and reset the AH to 1000 and efficacy to 95% . It was then showing 958AH and 95% SOC so looks like it was keeping tabs overnight but just something went funny with the 65534Ah count . Will see what happens tonight at midnight.
If I get enthusiastic I might even update the firmware again to day.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on February 01, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
Anyhow its a nice feature and my wife likes looking at a % number as she can relate to it rather than asking me how flat the battery's are based on a voltage reading. Thanks for getting it out there.
We have an iPad in the kitchen, always ready for the million random questions each day.
One of its permanent displays is my battery monitor. Wife loves this one for the same reason - she can see at a glance how we're going. Not as simple as a % but far more telling:
Quote from: offgridQLD on February 01, 2014, 05:22:17 PM
Thanks for the update.
I noticed last night just after nidnight that the Remaining Ah was showing 65534Ah and 100% :o I'm not sure what happened as it was set at 1000ah and was counting down fine at about 96% and 960 or so AH. So Im not sure what happened. Could it be something to do with having ( night auto reset enabled on my classic)?If it is I need this feature on as its very handy in case there is a issue when I am not at the house so the classic can reset ans sort any hangups out itself.
Anyhow I upgraded to the new local app this morning and reset the AH to 1000 and efficacy to 95% . It was then showing 958AH and 95% SOC so looks like it was keeping tabs overnight but just something went funny with the 65534Ah count . Will see what happens tonight at midnight.
If I get enthusiastic I might even update the firmware again to day.
Kurt
It could be the Auto Reset and boB is aware of this bug and hopefully will squash it
That's fine I guess I could turn off Auto night reset just to confirm it.
I'm just watching it top up the battery now. I am at 99% SOC but it looks like I will go over 100% SOC today as I am still in absorb with a bit to go.
My thinking is that because I have efficacy set at 95% and perhaps I need to adjust this down until I see 100% SOC as close to the moment I hit float as possible. For example If I hit float today showing 105% soc I should take 5% off the efficiency and adjust it to 90%
Battery Temps at the moment are spot on 24-25C so there isn't much drift there from spec.
Edit: In the end I was showing 1015 Ah into the 1000Ah bank before float triggered. So 15AH overshoot. With 95% set as the efficiency that works out to 1.5% overshoot I can't set ( .5%) so I set it down to 93% efficiency and will see how close I come next time it will be nice to see SOC hit 100% just as float triggers (although i think exact timing will be a big ask) .
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on February 01, 2014, 06:50:42 PM
Edit: In the end I was showing 1015 Ah into the 1000Ah bank before float triggered. So 15AH overshoot. With 95% set as the efficiency that works out to 1.5% overshoot I can't set ( .5%) so I set it down to 93% efficiency and will see how close I come next time it will be nice to see SOC hit 100% just as float triggers (although i think exact timing will be a big ask) .
Kurt
Which version of this new software do you have ? I thought I had fixed the overshoot... Maybe the newer stuff
isn't quite out there yet. Still beta but getting better (I hope)
boB
Northguys point, i beleive valid, is that 'efficiency' varys depending on what charge stage its in. in Bulk its likely around 100%, and in absorb maybe 80%. Using an average 'efficiency' will work well enough i guess if the charge discharge rhytym is regular day to day.
Quote from: offgridQLD on February 01, 2014, 05:22:17 PM
I noticed last night just after nidnight that the Remaining Ah was showing 65534Ah and 100%
Kurt, I know what this is !!! Just found it doing it for me with debug code. That happens when
the AH Discharged goes more than your battery capacity, which I let it do by 2 AH so I would know
it until release... Guess I can't do that ! Fixing this now.
boB
Quote from: zoneblue on February 02, 2014, 01:00:55 AM
Northguys point, i beleive valid, is that 'efficiency' varys depending on what charge stage its in. in Bulk its likely around 100%, and in absorb maybe 80%. Using an average 'efficiency' will work well enough i guess if the charge discharge rhytym is regular day to day.
Remember that there are two different kinds of electrical charging efficiency. One is Amp-Hour efficiency which is in the mid to upper 90% area, and energy efficiency, which is the one that changes with charge stage and can be all over the map.
SOC% will usually use Amp-Hour efficiency.
boB
I guess capacity of the battery can be anything you want it to be as a portion of the real capacity. For example you might have a 100AH battery and you could enter it as 20AH capacity if you like and consider 80% SOC empty.
I have my bank down as 1000AH though its rated at 3 different capacity's depending on 100 hr - 20 hr and 10hr C rate from 600AH up to 1330AH .
I counted AH today after hitting float and overshot by 15Ah on a 1000Ah battery. Though the SOC stayed at 100% and the capacity stayed at 1000ah i just used the ah total for the day to count the extra 15ah. I have reduced the efficacy to 93% and will see how that works out. Over the day (in float) I was running some big loads and the sun was patchy so it was interesting to see the SOC drop to 99% some times 98% then back up to 100% over the day as the classic did its best to cover the large loads with the patchy conditions.
I don't really expect things to be perfect given the variables of charging and discharging lead acid. I think as long as the the SOC % resets to 100% when the classic hits float and just counts down the AH and displayed it as a % its useful to me. Its a rare day that i don't hit hit float so personally my SOC will have a new datum every 24hrs so things shouldn't get out of whack over that time with small unpredictable variables.
It will be great if one day the SOC % could be logged every 10min and sent to the my mymidnite logs :)
Kurt
So, now that Aux on SOC is available, I have ordered the WB Jr.
Should be here in a day or two.
About its mounting: Its supposed to mount directly on the shunt, but that is a rather right spot.
Can I also connect it through sense wires? After all, no significant current would flow through the wire, so there would not be a voltage drop.
I cannot think of any reason why this would not work, but I thought I'd ask here anyway.
One consideration in remote mounting of the WBjr, away from the Shunt might noise induced on the sense leads connecting the WBjr to the shunt.
This has been discussed, in passing on this Forum EDIT:
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1536.0
Would suggest that the leads between the WB and the shunt be twisted, or perhaps use shielded cable.
And it would be kind of nice if the WB was supported mechanically. Some might just put it in a plastic bag and chuck it in a corner of a conduit box somewhere. Doubt that the WBjr consumes much power (to be dissipated). But it does deserve respect! Just opinions, Vic
On my Magnum ePanel with the BMK, I just cut the BMK leads to the shunt, crimped eye connectors onto the wires and attached the wires to the WBJr. Works like a charm and the measurements all match between the BMK and WBJr.
Thanks PHX ! Good to know that they are co-habitating.
boB
Quote from: boB on February 07, 2014, 02:27:33 AM
Thanks PHX ! Good to know that they are co-habitating.
boB
Yes, it's true but the BMK has far less jitters (.2A) when it reaches end amps at the end of an absorb charge, WBjr could be 1.5A and more when big loads are running. Just downloaded and installed the last FW yesterday evening, so I can't tell if it will be better.
boB, is there something that can be done inside the Classic to reduce WBjr jitters on a 500A shunt (Epanel)?
Erik
Checked it today with the new FW and WBjr EA has far less jitters and is now working fine within .7A and maybe better.
Great update! Thanks,
Erik
Heres the first full charge cycle with 1758. Pink curve is Wbjr (right way up this time), blue is ibat/Iout.
It is less noisy, but:
- theres an interesting additional regular spike during bulk
- still seems more noisy than Iout. (Ibat)
- still not sure the two datapoints are averaged exactly the same way
This had only the dc fridge overnite, then from about 9am some electronics. I will try to eliminate the loads completely one day to get rid of the noise from the loads.
But one of the consequences of this is that you can still see "negative" loads here and there (lower curve) when you subtract Iout from Iwbjr.
Also i set EA to WB 5amps, max absorb 90mins. You can see in went into float about 3.5amps if you take the center line of the jitter. It appears to have waited til the top of the jitter was under 5amps.
I don't quite understand the %/C . If I am correct it would be to correct the battery capacity lower as the temperature gets colder ? I don't have any idea what number to put in there.
Most batteries are 1% per degree C. So if the battery is 15C it looses 10% of its capacity
Quote from: RossW on February 01, 2014, 06:01:49 PMWe have an iPad in the kitchen, always ready for the million random questions each day.
One of its permanent displays is my battery monitor. Wife loves this one for the same reason - she can see at a glance how we're going. Not as simple as a % but far more telling:
(http://midniteforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1619.0;attach=2162;image)
What app or script is that, and does someone also know one for Android?
Thats Ross's cell monitor/eclectic collection of bash scripts hard at work. The curves further above are from http://code.google.com/p/theblackboxproject/
Quote from: zoneblue on February 07, 2014, 05:40:57 PM
Heres the first full charge cycle with 1758. Pink curve is Wbjr (right way up this time), blue is ibat/Iout.
It is less noisy, but:
- theres an interesting additional regular spike during bulk
- still seems more noisy than Iout. (Ibat)
- still not sure the two datapoints are averaged exactly the same way
This had only the dc fridge overnite, then from about 9am some electronics. I will try to eliminate the loads completely one day to get rid of the noise from the loads.
But one of the consequences of this is that you can still see "negative" loads here and there (lower curve) when you subtract Iout from Iwbjr.
Also i set EA to WB 5amps, max absorb 90mins. You can see in went into float about 3.5amps if you take the center line of the jitter. It appears to have waited til the top of the jitter was under 5amps.
Yes I believe boB just found an issue with his averaging. You are seeing the same thing I am and End Amps is sort of unusable because of all the positive spikes at the end of the absorb cycle
Register address 4260 should be == 4 if averaging is turned ON. I found that mine and Ryans was sitting
at 0 so was off.
Register address 4383 should be == 512. If it is sitting at 0, should be set to 512 if 4260 is at 4.
I do notice that when a load is connected and disconnected, the numbers will rise and fall slowly
just like it should when averaging BUT it is looking like there are some additional spikes or something.
Ryan noticed that the numbers moved around when 4260 == 4 and was solid at 0 so I'm not
sure what is going on there.
BTW, when I say register address, add one (1) to that number to get register.
Working on it. I think the problem can be fixed with Classic code so that would hopefully
be the case here. We'll get this.
Thanks,
boB
For now maybe just add 1.5 amps to your desired WBJr EA setting (and dont go below 3amps) and it works good.
Soooooo much better than the old days, where you had to guess/take into account your base loads :)
Bob, just to be clear, other than EA smoothing, i think its really desirable that there is one way or another, a WB register that is averaged the same way and in the same time frame as the Iout figure. The reason is that this allows a Iload datapoint (that doesnt go negative and other weird things). Now, given the addon nature of WBJr, it may not be possble to get the exact same 1s timing, but as near as you can get it. A post processing 10s, 15s, or even 60s averaging scheme based off the 1s averaging should give decent enough data.