So my brother-in-law has a Classic 150 that I helped him setup, but something I noticed shortly after we set it up is that the History screen shows an invalid date and time. The date shows 15/31/2127 and the time shows 31:63. This may change, but it's WAY outside of normal parameters. The daily KWH meter never resets either, so the number keeps going up cumulatively. Neither if these are really *problems* per se, BUT they cause a secondary issue.
A side effect of this problem is that the Classic never resets it's charge state from Float back to Bulk at midnight like it's supposed to. When I finally noticed that this was a problem, the batteries were low and I had to initiate a bulk charge manually.
So, I tried resetting it to factory settings, AND we updated it to the latest firmware last week, and no change. I suspect that there's a register that is set incorrectly or something. Any thoughts on how to fix this, hopefully without sending it back?
For recent firmwares so many registers changes occured, that a VMM is essenital. Your symptoms sound consistant with that. Give it a try.
Quote from: zoneblue on May 24, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
For recent firmwares so many registers changes occured, that a VMM is essenital. Your symptoms sound consistant with that. Give it a try.
In case you wonder what a VMM is:
Power off the Classic.
Hold left and right arrow keys on the MNGP down and power it up hold them down until the Midnite logo appears. Confirm your settings in the screen that will come up and you should be good to go.
Might lose custom settings so might log those values so you can put them back in. Been awhile since I did it, I forget.
Tom
Sounds like the MNGP/Remote is not setting the time and date inside the Classic.
Is this a Classic Lite which does not have an MNGP ?
If it does have an MNGP, maybe the "Time Sync" in the TWEAKS menu is OFF ?
Does the date and time change from one log to another ?
Remember also that the Classic may not change from Float to Bulk exactly at midnight until the next wakeup... (Not that your
clock actually becomes midnight)
Even without a properly running clock, the Classic should start a new bulk once every 24 hours unless you have SKIP BULK
days enabled for some amount of days. This is because some Classics are Lites and do not have an MNGP to tell them what
the date is. A Classic without an MNGP should actually start at year 2003 and not year 2127 in any case.
This is probably something very simple (I think and hope)
zoneblue, TomW, one of the first things I told him to try was a VMM after he updated the firmware. No change to that problem tho. Keep in mind it came like this out of the box when we first set it up too.
boB, it's a Classic 150 with a MNGP from Q2 or Q3 last year or so. Out of the box it had the pre-WBJr firmware. I've never checked the time synch in the tweaks menu, but I'll take a look. I suspect this isn't the problem. The time and date are set correctly in the menu, and they update correctly, but the date doesn't change at all in the History menu. There's no way to select a different date because the screen shows "Invalid date" then shows the invalid date (15/31/2127) so no logs are selectable. I don't recall if we've tried accessing them from the Local app or not.
I can say with certainty that it does NOT reset from Float. We had a span of cloudy days here, where I was running the generator every other day, and their Classic was on Float while their batteries were at ~22v. I had to re-initiate it via the menus, and it hasn't reached Float again (since it hasn't been sunny). We're not using the Skip Bulk settings at all.
Any ideas guys?
Quote from: crunnells on May 27, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
Any ideas guys?
I would read the time and date that the Classic itself thinks that it is....
To do this, from the MNGP, go to the MISC menu and then the TIME menu which will
bring up the time and date from the MNGP/Remote itself...
Then, holding down the LEFT-ARROW key, press the SOFT-RIGHT key (upper right)
and the MNGP will read the Classic's internal time and date.
The MNGP should write the time and date to the Classic about once every minute.
If the Classic does not agree with the MNGP's time and date, we will go from there.
Date and time on both the MNGP and the Classic are correct, so the Classic is getting set correctly. It's on Float again right now even tho it's at 68% SOC (according to the Classic) so setting to rebulk now.
Another slightly alarming thing I discovered is that there's a tiny arcing sound (bzzzt) coming from inside the Classic, behind the main board. It's intermittent, but still probably not good. Also the chassis seems to be energized as I received a tiny shock when touching the bare metal of the Classic logo in the front panel.
Thoughts on that? None of the other two Classics I've installed do either of these. Although, this system is ungrounded because my brother in law is too lazy to pound a ground rod thru 8' of solid lava rock ;-)
I don't think you ever said what version the Classic and the MNGP are on. My experience with new Classic's and historical data is it all seems to have strange data in the EPROM until you clear the entries for the first time. That seems to zero out the settings and from there on it tends to record the history correctly. Although I had one unit that keep erasing data that was stored beyond the 256th day.
Quote from: crunnells on May 28, 2014, 09:37:29 PM
Another slightly alarming thing I discovered is that there's a tiny arcing sound (bzzzt) coming from inside the Classic, behind the main board. It's intermittent, but still probably not good. Also the chassis seems to be energized as I received a tiny shock when touching the bare metal of the Classic logo in the front panel.
Thoughts on that? None of the other two Classics I've installed do either of these. Although, this system is ungrounded because my brother in law is too lazy to pound a ground rod thru 8' of solid lava rock ;-)
Try putting the Ground Fault jumper on and see if it takes away the shocking results. It may also beep and say Ground fault if there really is one.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on May 29, 2014, 08:58:23 AM
Try putting the Ground Fault jumper on and see if it takes away the shocking results. It may also beep and say Ground fault if there really is one.
I'm a bit unclear on the concept of GFP in an ungrounded system. Care to elaborate?
Crunnells, for safety reasons, if you have an ungrounded system you need fuses/breakers on both pos and neg lines.
--vtMaps
And a bit of static build up is to be expected on an ungrounded system. In fact you might find 1/2 Vmp on the dc side. Using the GFP might bring that onto the case?
Other things:
- i hope the Voc isnt large though?
- whats he doing for AC/inverter earthing?
I discovered that the minor chassis voltage was coming from the Midnite Lightning Arrestor... I disconnected the MNSPD ground from the main DC ground bus and the shocking went away. I really need to lean on my brother-in-law to ground his system, because there's no point in having a MNSPD if there's no ground for the surges to go into (not to mention the whole system is somewhat unsafe). It was all originally grounded, but we moved the system to another building which had a south facing roof for the new panels, but there wasn't a ground rod installed near the new building. I also noticed that the GFP jumper was OFF, but the settings in the panel were ON, so I put the jumper back in place.
Anyway, the original issue, @Resthome, the firmware was updated to the latest about 2 weeks ago, so whatever version that is.
Again, the issue is that the Classic doesn't reset it's timers every 24 hours like it should. I just checked the Logs screen again, and as far as it's concerned, "today" is all of the data accumulated since we updated the firmware (about 2 weeks ago). Yesterday is everything since we installed the LAST firmware update (some months ago). So, KWH counts are 54kwh for "today" even tho it's a 1.6kw system, and ~550kwh for "yesterday" even tho both of those are impossible.
Have you looked at the Classic's last few "minutely" (Hourly, recent history actually taken every 5 or 10 minutes)
logs entries from the MNGP ? Either in text form or graphics form ?
Do they show wrong also ? This would certainly be strange if the Classic's internal clock and calendar are
showing correct.
If that is still the case (showing wrong) then it must be an EEprom problem. If the EEprom is not working
correctly, then the Classic may not even remember what its set point voltages and times should be when
it is powered up after being off. You may need an RMA on that Classic if it has good firmware in it and
it still doesn't show proper times and dates in at least the recent history logs.
Also, that ground shock thing... Isn't the Classic's case connected to the rest of your systems ground ?
The system ground should not be left floating... The SPD will draw something less than 1 miliamp to
light up its LED and that is problem where the shock is coming from.
The SPD will not be able to do its job unless its green wire is connected to earth ground.
Yeah, if I change the status screen to show the line graph, it correctly shows the peak wattage over the past 12 hours (or whatever it is). So that's working!
I've powered the Classic off and back on not that long ago to see if that would reset the charge status to bulk, and it seemed to keep all of the settings correctly (and it DIDN'T reset the status from Float to Bulk). So, maybe it's not the EEprom? I dunno, there seems like there's something not going right in the system and it's not related to the way it's configured... Basically, we're using all of the factory settings EXCEPT that Aux 1 and 2 are used to power a vent fan and the WBJr.
It might be worth RMAing anyway because I don't think there's something I can do from here... Unless you want me to export all of the modbus registers or something, to look for anything weird.
Regarding the ground shock, the Classic actually wasn't grounded at the time (I put off doing it because without a ground rod the whole thing is moot), but it is now. Makes sense that the SPD draws power for the LED (I didn't think of it at the time). I just emailed my brother-in-law and stressed to him that he needs to get it done ASAP because like you said, the SPD isn't doing jack if it's not actually grounded.
We had thunderstorms roll by earlier this week; we just got lucky and didn't have any close strikes.
Just wanted to bump this because I still haven't gotten a resolution on this problem. I've tried all of the things you suggested, and am running into a wall. I saw this thread that has the same issue (http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1898.0) but most of the problems seem to have been resolved by firmware updates. Unfortunately that hasn't fixed my issue...
I also sent an email via the contact form on the Midnite site requesting an RMA, but haven't heard back yet and it's been a couple of days.
Anyone?
have you tried the Vulcan Mind Meld yet? (Factory reset)
Quote from: crunnells on May 25, 2014, 06:31:17 PM
zoneblue, TomW, one of the first things I told him to try was a VMM after he updated the firmware. No change to that problem tho. Keep in mind it came like this out of the box when we first set it up too.
boB, it's a Classic 150 with a MNGP from Q2 or Q3 last year or so. Out of the box it had the pre-WBJr firmware. I've never checked the time synch in the tweaks menu, but I'll take a look. I suspect this isn't the problem. The time and date are set correctly in the menu, and they update correctly, but the date doesn't change at all in the History menu. There's no way to select a different date because the screen shows "Invalid date" then shows the invalid date (15/31/2127) so no logs are selectable. I don't recall if we've tried accessing them from the Local app or not.
I can say with certainty that it does NOT reset from Float. We had a span of cloudy days here, where I was running the generator every other day, and their Classic was on Float while their batteries were at ~22v. I had to re-initiate it via the menus, and it hasn't reached Float again (since it hasn't been sunny). We're not using the Skip Bulk settings at all.
Okay back to the OP. You still have not told us what firmware you have on this Classic. Need the Classic and the MNGP versions. Secondly, what log menu are you looking at Daily or Hourly? Or are you looking under the Status Menus? It is not unusual to find garbage in some locations of the log that have never been written to yet. The only way to get around that is to erase the logs or wait until that location gets written to. IIRC there are 388 locations so that would take over a year to write to every locations, which is why I suggested to erase the logs to get a fresh start as erasing them seem to put all zeros in all locations. Then each night at 23:59 a new entry will be logged.
One of the things I mentioned in the first post is that we reset the Classic to factory settings (VMM) and updated to the latest firmware as of the date I posted. I don't have the version numbers in front of me, but I'm 99.9% sure it's the latest REV 1849 from 4/21/14. I will check and confirm in the morning.
Just in case I wasn't clear earlier, we haven't changed any of the default charge settings either. The only settings we changed were to enable the WBJr and set Aux1 to power a vent fan. None of the Bulk, Absorb, or Float voltages or times have changed from factory settings for 24v.
Also, after reading the thread in my earlier post, I double-checked the little battery in the MNGP and didn't find any evidence of anything sticky blocking the contacts. The battery voltage read 2.8-2.9 (out of 3v) so I don't think the MNGP backup battery is the cause here.
Quote from: Resthome on June 27, 2014, 02:13:15 AM
Secondly, what log menu are you looking at Daily or Hourly? Or are you looking under the Status Menus?
It's the Logs menu that I was referring to, where it shows the invalid date. If I show daily, last time I checked a month or so ago, it currently only has two "days" of data, which actually encompass 6-8 months worth of data. So, the daily KWH for the first day is something like 180kwh (this, from a 1.6kwh system) and the one for "today" keeps accruing, and will continue to do so until I do another factory restore on the system (or maybe just a complete power down, I forget what resets it at this point).
I haven't tried resetting the log...
Actually, now that I re-read the VMM procedure, I haven't done it... I kept thinking that was the factory restore. Derp.
Okay, first thing tomorrow I'm going to do a VMM and report back. I'm hoping this fixes the problem.
Quote from: crunnells on June 27, 2014, 04:53:47 AM
Quote from: Resthome on June 27, 2014, 02:13:15 AM
Secondly, what log menu are you looking at Daily or Hourly? Or are you looking under the Status Menus?
It's the Logs menu that I was referring to, where it shows the invalid date. If I show daily, last time I checked a month or so ago, it currently only has two "days" of data, which actually encompass 6-8 months worth of data. So, the daily KWH for the first day is something like 180kwh (this, from a 1.6kwh system) and the one for "today" keeps accruing, and will continue to do so until I do another factory restore on the system (or maybe just a complete power down, I forget what resets it at this point).
I haven't tried resetting the log...
Actually, now that I re-read the VMM procedure, I haven't done it... I kept thinking that was the factory restore. Derp.
Okay, first thing tomorrow I'm going to do a VMM and report back. I'm hoping this fixes the problem.
VMM is a factory reset? You have to have powered off the Classic. Then hold down the left and right arrow keys and while holding these keys down turn the power to the Classic back on. If you haven't done this it could be your problem.
Please describe what you think is factory reset.
Also when you chose the Log Menu it displays a choice of Daily and Hourly which one did you choose?
@resthome - I thought VMM was the same as Factory Reset (just a different name for the same thing), but I realized I was mistaken.
We've done the Factory Reset a few times (power on while holding left and right soft keys) but I haven't done the VMM (power on, then install J1 and J4 hardware jumpers inside the Classic). So, I'm going to try that in the morning and see if that fixes it.
Quote from: crunnells on June 27, 2014, 07:14:09 AM
@resthome - I thought VMM was the same as Factory Reset (just a different name for the same thing), but I realized I was mistaken.
We've done the Factory Reset a few times (power on while holding left and right soft keys) but I haven't done the VMM (power on, then install J1 and J4 hardware jumpers inside the Classic). So, I'm going to try that in the morning and see if that fixes it.
They are the same thing! The jumper method are for Classic Lites that do not have a MNGP.
Quote from: Resthome on June 27, 2014, 11:36:48 AM
They are the same thing! The jumper method are for Classic Lites that do not have a MNGP.
Well, of course they ~should~ be the same thing. Or real close anyway.
So, on the wrong dates, is the MNGP's clock and date set correctly as well as the TWEAK,
Time Sync turned ON ? Without the Time Sync turned on, the MNGP will not be able to
tell the Classic what time and date it is.
You can look at the Classic's internal clock and date from the MNGP date menu by
holding down the LEFT-ARROW key and pressing the SOFT-RIGHT key.
It should match the time and date of the MNGPs time and date.
boB
Quote from: Resthome on June 27, 2014, 11:36:48 AM
Quote from: crunnells on June 27, 2014, 07:14:09 AM
@resthome - I thought VMM was the same as Factory Reset (just a different name for the same thing), but I realized I was mistaken.
We've done the Factory Reset a few times (power on while holding left and right soft keys) but I haven't done the VMM (power on, then install J1 and J4 hardware jumpers inside the Classic). So, I'm going to try that in the morning and see if that fixes it.
They are the same thing! The jumper method are for Classic Lites that do not have a MNGP.
In practice, they're not. I did the VMM, and when I powered the classic back up it was in 12v mode instead of 24v mode. It never gave me the opportunity to select the operating voltage (as you get with the soft-key reset). So I powered it down and did a soft-key reset, and set it back to 24v. Still having the same issue, however.
I checked the firmware versions:
MNGP: 1821:04/14/2014
Classic: 1849: 04/21/2014
This is the 2nd or 3rd time we've updated the firmware, so that's not a valid fix.
Other questions posed earlier in this thread... I can see hourly logs just fine, either my moving thru the status screens OR by accessing them from the Logs screen in the menu. It keeps track of the current day info perfectly, showing peak power every 10 minutes, BUT when I switch to Daily (in the Logs screen), it shows the date as 15/31/2127 and a time of 31:63, always. This never changes, except to switch to "Invalid Date" then back to said invalid date.
boB: I'll try to check and see what the time is set to, whether it matches, and if Time Sync is set or not. AFAIK it should be set to the default, because it's not something we've ever changed, and again, we received it from the factory (well, Arizona Wind & Sun) with this issue so it's not something we've changed that has caused the problem.
Have you tried looking at the Offline Data in the Local App. Are all the entries showing the bad data? You have to wait until the Export button is not grayed out before scrolling through the data.
I assume the enable logging is checked.
I have to double-check, but according to my brother in law, all of the offline dates show the invalid date "15/31/2127" instead of the actual data. I need to go over there and check the date that boB asked for, so I'll have more info tomorrow.
Quote from: crunnells on July 18, 2014, 04:52:19 AM
I have to double-check, but according to my brother in law, all of the offline dates show the invalid date "15/31/2127" instead of the actual data. I need to go over there and check the date that boB asked for, so I'll have more info tomorrow.
So is it just the date field the is incorrect in the Offline data? Do the other fields have the correct data?
Yeah it would help to have answers to boB's questions on Time Sync and the actual Classic time.m
You should now be able to turn off the Time Sync in the Classic TWEAKS menu and just set the time and date in the classic
from the Local App panel.
Of course you have to wait a day to find out if the date change worked by downloading the daily data because
the previously stored data will not change... Only the data stored after the time/date was fixed in the Classic.
You could of course fix the data in the CSV file after it is downloaded from the local app.
boB
So the date and time on the MNGP matches the date and time on the Classic (according to the Time menu). I just checked the Offline data with the Local App, and it shows up blank no matter how long I wait as seen in the attached screenshot.
I also pulled up the "config" panel, and it shows the correct date there as well, so wherever this problem is coming from, it's not related directly to the date settings.
Something is screwed up internally on this Classic. I don't care about the logs, I just want it to reset to Bulk every day.
boB, what do I have to do to get this thing RMA'd? They've had it for 8 months tops, and this has been a problem since day 1.
Quote from: boB on July 18, 2014, 05:13:34 PM
You could of course fix the data in the CSV file after it is downloaded from the local app.
boB
From the screen shot all the data is bad not just the date. I'd still try to clear the data and see if it would clear out the bad data. But something is wrong with that Classic's logs.
Quote from: crunnells on July 18, 2014, 07:49:25 PM
So the date and time on the MNGP matches the date and time on the Classic (according to the Time menu). I just checked the Offline data with the Local App, and it shows up blank no matter how long I wait as seen in the attached screenshot.
I also pulled up the "config" panel, and it shows the correct date there as well, so wherever this problem is coming from, it's not related directly to the date settings.
Something is screwed up internally on this Classic. I don't care about the logs, I just want it to reset to Bulk every day.
boB, what do I have to do to get this thing RMA'd? They've had it for 8 months tops, and this has been a problem since day 1.
Oh Man ! EVERY field appears to be loaded with "1"s (for example, 0xFFFF)
Time to talk with Raechel or Ryan I believe. I will make sure that they see this thread.
BTW, this is the first time I have seen this exact problem. Thank you for uploading the screen shot !
Yup, that looks like a bad EEPROM somehow -- all 0xFF.
Might be a bad solder connection ?
That's entirely possible. It still makes a slight "bzzt" sound every couple of minutes from inside the unit (behind the main board somewhere) which sounds like it could be a short. It seems to do it whenever the Classic sweeps the array. I could be wrong about this; I haven't tried timing it, but it does seem to coincide with the Classic seeking a better power point.
If this slight buzz sound is associated with a sweep, if the sweep pulls the PV input voltage to within a few volts of Vbattery, then the inductors will make a (usually) soft buzzing sound, which is normal for most MPPT CCs that I've seen. FWIW. This may not be what you are noticing. Vic
Possibly, but PV voltage is ~80v and batteries are ~24v. The setup is nearly identical to mine, but I've never heard a sound like that come from my Classic. I pulled the cover off to try and identify the source, but it's *behind* the main board somewhere, so I couldn't look for solder cracks or anything like that.
OK, and the noise that I was referring to is usually more like a musical note.
Typically the Classics sweep very fast, in Solar mode. But, in lower light conditions, the sweeps can take some time ... Done guessing. Good Luck, Vic
Vic, it's a good guess, but I've noticed the buzzing more at peak sun when the array is putting out near maximum wattage (so between 10am and 2pm typically). At this point I'm just hoping Midnite will take it back and figure out the problem. This isn't something I feel like I can troubleshoot any further, and the fact that these problems were present when we bought it makes me wonder. We ordered an MNSPD along with the Classic, and it arrived DOA as well (something I didn't realize until recently).
crunnells, for the buzzing, turn off LMX (LowMax) in the TWEAKS menu.
Just turned off lomax and it still makes that arcing buzz sound.
RMA is in the works so it'll be interesting to see what you guys find.
Quote from: crunnells on July 25, 2014, 07:38:58 PM
Just turned off lomax and it still makes that arcing buzz sound.
RMA is in the works so it'll be interesting to see what you guys find.
Oh ? OK... That's pretty weird. could it be the turbo fan making a buzzing noise ?
It sounds exactly like an electrical arc; not a transformer buzzing, or fan blades hitting an obstruction, or a bug, or a phone on silent mode.
I should note that you probably *wouldn't* notice the sound if the turbo fan was running. It's quiet enough that you can hear it from a couple of feet away, or as close as you'd need to be to look at the LCD screen on the Classic.
I'm CRUNNELLS' brother in law. I've been living with the funky data issue since the charge controller has been working fine but in the last 4 or 5 days when I go out to the garage in the morning, the charge controller's turbo fan is repeatedly alternating max fan with fan off and it isn't charging. If I cycle the breakers, everything works fine until the next morning (well, except for the data issue that never got solved.) I should also note I've been out as late as 10pm with the idea of checking the charge controller fan noise, and it's been fine that late, but by the next morning, it's not putting out a charge again. I did a factory settings reset and it hasn't helped.
Any ideas?
That RMA that Chris mentioned a few posts above never came to be and I'm wondering if the two problems could be related. Since the data hasn't meant anything for some time, I've gotten out of the habit of logging in with the Local Status Panel app and just use my MNGP. That being said, now I don't see my Classic anywhere on the network. My computer gets internet when plugged into the same cable, so it's got fine connection to the router. I've checked the router and the Classic isn't showing up there. It was set with a static IP address and used to work with the local status app.
Lastly, once the batteries are fully charged and the system moves to "Float" it doesn't ever come back to "Bulk" charge on its own. I have to manually reset it after each sunny day.
Thanks for the help in advance!
Very strange... OK, so you're sure that the MNGP's TWEAKS setting, Time Sync is ON and the
time and date in the MNGP is correct ? that's just for the date problem of course.
Having to reset the Classic to have it Bulk every day is not right of course.
Not sure about the fan. I guess let's try to figure out the need to reset.
What do you do to reset it ? Power it off and back on again or force bulk
in the Tweaks menu ? The Classic is supposed to re-bulk every night
at midnight and when the sun comes up after that midnight (23:59 actually)
Also, if you have updated the firmware/software in the Classic and MNGP,
make sure that the Skip Days in CHARGE--ADVANCED isn't set to some number
other than zero if you want it to bulk every day. This feature is fairly new so
if it is old firmware, say, more than a year old at least, it is probably one
without that skip days feature.
Or maybe you want to update the firmware ? The networking aspect of
the Classic should work better with newer firmware.
See what you find here and then we can talk about the fan. What does the
turbo fan do again ? Is it just noisy and loud ?
boB