I currently have 8 12 volt flooded cell batteries and have been thinking about trying something different. I currently have
7 kw of panels and an XW6048 inverter- 3 Classic 150s for charging!. My 8 flooded batteries are 220 ah ea - so I have
440 ah of battery @ 48 VDC. I have been struggling with the idea of going to AGM type batteries and a 6V cell. Just wondering
what everyone recommends - I have US battery here in Memphis and they offer the L16 at 390 ah - was thinking minimum
16 or hopefully 24. The flooded cell are nice but it would be nice to have a sealed battery where I would have to vent?
Still working on the install here the 185XCHC are almost a year old I and I have maintained them with a PWM charger and (2) 80 watt panels. I dont have room in battery box for 4 more! Also I have heard that 3 strings is max!
Gentlemen - Your thoughts??
Bill N4ZI Munford, TN
with AGM, you do NOT want any parallel battery strings, they have very low internal resistance, and the subtle wire resistance differences will cause un-equal loading of the batteries.
If you need more battery amps, look into 4V or 2V cells, and use more in series. Of course, the quantities are lower, and the price goes way up.
Mike,
That's good information - that's what I am after! I don't think 440 ah @ 48vdc is enough battery for a 7 kw system.
Originally I only planned to put out about 3 or 4 kw. Guess I kinda jumped before giving it a lot of thought! I have seen the
Edison batteries which are known for there long life, I see they are real expensive and some don't recommend them. I plan
to do grid-tie with battery backup for now. I would like to get another 3kw in panels and purchase a second 6kw XW. I am
not against buying (24) of the 2v batteries rated at 1100 ah in AGM. My usage here is horrific - last month I averaged
67 kwh per day- AC and pool pump causing biggest increase in summer Fall/Winter and Spring my usage is around 32KWH
per day here! I would like to hear from others. I hope to have system online by end of October if work allows! My brother
in-laws backhoe is broken down in back so I am waiting on a few parts for it to finish my undergrounds. I will use the
batteries I have for now - was surprised to see 100 ah @ 48 vdc listed as minimum for running the XW!
Thanks for your help!
Bill N4ZI Munford, TN
ps I will surely post more questions a I see the need!
Quote from: n4zi on September 16, 2014, 09:29:40 PM
I don't think 440 ah @ 48vdc is enough battery for a 7 kw system.
I am not against buying (24) of the 2v batteries rated at 1100 ah in AGM. My usage here is horrific - last month I averaged
67 kwh per day
I would like to hear from others.
I (used to) have three parallel banks of 24 x 2V/500AH AGM
(http://house.albury.net.au/23may2010/100_4463.JPG)
I have since replaced them with a single bank of 16 x 3V/300AH LFP with the intention of doubling that up later this year to make it a single bank of 32 x 3V/300AH LFP arranged as 16S2P.
Quote from: n4zi on September 16, 2014, 09:29:40 PM
.... was surprised to see 100 ah @ 48 vdc listed as minimum for running the XW!...
That's to allow enough "capacitance" to let the inverter build a nice sine wave at 1Kw power. 100A needed for each 1Kw of load. Otherwise, internal resistance (NiFe has lots) lets the voltage of a fully charged pack sag.
n4zi, If you had planned to used just 3kW, a single 440ah, 48V battery would’ve been enough. You can’t use two batteries in parallel since they both will have a different discharge rate based on their condition and even if one of the batteries drops a few millivolts, the complete battery pack becomes useless. You can however use a Zener with every voltage source so the batteries get only discharged when you’re taking power from the battery pack. These Zeners can be bypassed while charging.
Hello Bill
You seem like a fellow who might enjoy a crazy idea. Have a look at Aquion energy batteries if they work as touted I'd get some for my next set, time will tell. Also it seems their facebook page has more meat than their web site if you dig awhile.
We have a local expert on here but he is being extremely tight lipped about them, something about a non-disclosure agreement. I wish the company would let him tell us about them, if they are already on the market, what could he disclose that dollars couldn't find out, I'm just a big cheap chicken.
Of course what he may have to say could be ugly and then I understand the nda.
Good luck
Wade
I am testing the Aquions here but now that they are for sale I think I can talk a lot more about them.
The stacks we are actively testing right now are the older stacks the new ones are 40% more energy dense and 30-40% lower resistance.
Pros I can attest to:
*Do not need to be fully charged. Happy to never be above 50 or 60% SOC (Unlike Lead acid)
*Can be drawn down to 0% SOC with no side effects on the battery
*Environmentally friendly no harmful stuff in them
*Short circuit safe (You can short the battery out and walk away it doesnt care. When you un short it the voltage creeps back up and settles at about half what the SOC was prior)
Aquion claims (And I tend to believe them based on our testing but I will tell you more soon)
*The production battery is 40% more energy dense and 30-40% less internal resistance (This is key as the stacks we are testing now sag in voltage a little more than I like under a hard load but the production stacks are supposed to eliminate this and I will test this in a week)
*Extremely long cycle life especially when not "Fully" charged every day (Using Skip days on the Classic for instance)
Cons I have:
*Non production stacks have slightly more sag than I like in voltage under load, of course more stacks helps but our test location is an offgrid home with standard submersible well pump etc and 700 watts of PV using an SW2524 and 5 of the older non production stacks (To be fare they claim this is fixed now and I will make sure to give my opinion)
*Wiring, They use MC4 connectors and its a little harder to get used to. To be fare this really is not a con more than an older set in his ways installer needing to learn new ways. hat we do is use a Combiner box just like on PV and combine the Stacks. Of course if you buy 12 stacks on a pallet it is all wired for you so this is not really a con so much as an abservation.
Ryan
Guys,
Don't know anything about the Aquions but will do a search and see what I come up with! I am still assembling
my system and have all my outside work complete for now. My batteries are US battery 185HC-XC 12 volt unit.
I currently have 2 banks for a total of 440 ah. I am thinking 2v and would prefer AGM type. My buddy across
town just purchased the Outback 200 amp hour units - he has 3 banks coming with 8 spare batteries. His rack
will hold 3 banks of 4 for 600 ah. I am currently thinking about the Enersys types - they are expensive but
within reason. If I was a rich man I would probably try the Iron Edisons but wow they are really expensive!
I would really like about 1100 to 1300 ah for lots of spare capacity(1 bank). I installed my second XW6048 and a hope
to purchase a minimum of 3 kw more of panels(for 10 kw total) The batteries are the quagmire. By the way
"n4zi" is my amateur radio callsign if your wondering - I get some real looks when they see that on the back
of my 93 mustang! Ryan think you still owe me an email on the XW firmware?? More thoughts?
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
I can't speak to the AGM's but I can attest that a 1350 FLA bank is a quagmire that will eat all the joy from your life. Maybe not so much in the summer when we have plenty of sun but the whole early winter all I do is worry about hurting the batteries. You being grid connected have a distinct advantage in not having to hear the gen run while in late absorb.
Ryan,
Thanks, A LOT! You know I've been drooling about these for a while and am enthused that they are getting out there to the edge of main stream. I may be ready to jump in.
Good luck, Bill
Thanks, Ryan
I wonder when are they going to release charge / discharge curves / cycle life testing etc..
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 12, 2014, 05:43:31 AM
I am testing the Aquions here but now that they are for sale I think I can talk a lot more about them.
Quote from: zoneblue on November 12, 2014, 03:32:36 PM
I wonder when are they going to release charge / discharge curves / cycle life testing etc..
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 12, 2014, 05:43:31 AM
I am testing the Aquions here but now that they are for sale I think I can talk a lot more about them.
I wonder when we will see Chinese copies of these swamping the battery market ::)
Dgd
Quote from: zoneblue on November 12, 2014, 03:32:36 PM
I wonder when are they going to release charge / discharge curves / cycle life testing etc..
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 12, 2014, 05:43:31 AM
I am testing the Aquions here but now that they are for sale I think I can talk a lot more about them.
Not till Ryan has
proved there is no magic smoke in them... ??? :o :'(
Quote from: dgd on November 12, 2014, 05:40:41 PM
I wonder when we will see Chinese copies of these swamping the battery market ::)
Dgd
A very good question, especially since there is an indication over on Candlepower that Panasonic is currently selling cheap Chinese copies of eneloops under the same part number as the Japanese made ones. :o
My ineptitude show when I think about things electrical!
On the Aquion spec sheets there is a single stack and a pallet of 12 combined stacks all wired together.
Why are the Ah spec's on the combined, wired 12 stack not a simple multiple of the singles?
M- module = 541.5 Ah http://www.aquionenergy.com/stationary-energy-storage-batteries#specifications
S- module = 51 Ah X 12 = 612 http://www.aquionenergy.com/energy-storage-battery#specifications
Thanks for your thoughts
Wade
I really like the ~ 30 Lb weight of each 'cell' in the S line , 8 of them to a stack, one man job to move / install it!
If the specs are from engineering, and not from marketing, I have attached a simple spreadsheet to look at costs. I also documented some assumptions and other thoughts. Poke at it, let me know if I am off somewhere. These look good if they deliver what they say.
you should split AGM and FLA, also add LiFePo4 that we know of at this time. there are other Li chemistries but not on the open market at this time. See 'Boston Power'
It would be nice to have them all listed, I agree. I just have not done the research on other cell types yet, except for a little bit on AGM. If you have the data for the other cells, the formulas should be able to be copied over directly into additional columns. Feel free to add information and share it back. Data always has assumptions, list those too if you have them.
I did some reading about the East Penn Ultra battery. you can download the 2 white papers here:
http://www.ecoult.com/contact/?_cldee=ZXJpYy5qb2hhbnNlbkBzaGF3LmNh
I was especially impressed with the PSoC graph Fig 4 (SANDIA) on page 9 of the short version on the paper...
Now that is more like what is needed for an O/G battery... downside is the weight...
Hi,
I think Deep-cycle, lead-acid batteries are very good and i personally using for my solar product. so you can go for it
Link removed as it resembled advertising
@Halfcrazy, any word on your testing or additional thoughts?
@Westbranch, thanks for the links, have downloaded to see what they have to say.
Ryan
I am also quite curious.
I tried to send you a pm, I didn't want to poke you again on here about this, but it seems to have gotten lost in the netherworld.
Wade
Well so far so good the newer stacks they sell now are definitely better as far as surge capability. They are still softer than a Lead acid but its probably not an issue anymore. We have 6 stacks on an XW with a 3/4HP well pump and it starts that just fine. So far I am impressed but we have only been playing for a week on these new ones
Hello Again Ryan
After 11 hours of gen run today, including EQ, my brain is back on batteries.
No snow, no sun, little wind and rain for weeks on end at 35-45 degrees, remind me why I moved to AK?
I know it's not your department but..., why not add another module to the stack so it more closely resembles the DC input window for our inverters, your XW at I think 44-64 and mine at 42-68? I think I remember the early stacks started with 7 modules. 9 modules would put the voltage around 66V, so it would be closer to my DC high and a slight bit above yours.
Any new revelations? I hope your Aquions are forgotten in the corner, quietly doing their thing while being properly abused!
Thanks
Wade
QuoteI did some reading about the East Penn Ultra battery
Me too. I reached out to East Penn, as well as to the only distributor they list on their website. I actually received replies from both, so that was very nice. What I found out is the battery is only being made for custom fits at this point, and larger distribution is probably not going to happen until at least Q3, which is a bummer as I am looking to switch to 48v shortly. The battery has great specs for RE/solar purposes with the partial SOC expectation, and doesn't have any problem delivering current with the capacitance ability. The technology has been in use since 2008 in quite a few laboratories and proving grounds with seemingly good results. The actual specs on the cell though seem to be hard to find since they are not generally available yet.
It looks good, but nearly any pre-release product does.
Ryan, given you are a month in, have the characteristics settled down at all? I am asking because it is time for me to make a decision. I have all the stuffs except cells for switching to 48v.
My questions are mostly around rate of charge and discharge. They claim 480w continuous for a 48v nominal stack, which puts it at 10A. A 24v stack then would be 240w at 10A. Do they scale such? Are you able to charge/discharge @50A on your 5 24v stacks continuously?
Given the entry price, 2 48v stacks at 1150 each plus shipping, I have to say I am leaning towards ole Pb Acid though.
Quote from: xsnrg on February 01, 2015, 11:55:10 AM
Ryan, given you are a month in, have the characteristics settled down at all? I am asking because it is time for me to make a decision. I have all the stuffs except cells for switching to 48v.
My questions are mostly around rate of charge and discharge. They claim 480w continuous for a 48v nominal stack, which puts it at 10A. A 24v stack then would be 240w at 10A. Do they scale such? Are you able to charge/discharge @50A on your 5 24v stacks continuously?
Given the entry price, 2 48v stacks at 1150 each plus shipping, I have to say I am leaning towards ole Pb Acid though.
I have read elsewhere that a price drop for the Aquion stacks is planned near the end of this year. Price is apparently going to drop from about $500/kwh to about $350/kwh if the company follows through?
Any word on the performance of the S20 stacks. They sound promising regarding rated cycle life, however, that may take years to prove out, especially if factoring in calendar life? $/kwh has me very interested. (10,000 cycles at an average 25% daily DOD works out to almost 30 years, not factoring in calendar life)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRYgRvtWTSA
During the video, they mention that the vendors are also monitoring things.... very cool. 2 M-pallets of Aquion. I wonder if there is more information if one knows where to look?
Quote from: xsnrg on February 21, 2015, 11:24:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRYgRvtWTSA
During the video, they mention that the vendors are also monitoring things.... very cool. 2 M-pallets of Aquion. I wonder if there is more information if one knows where to look?
After watching the video, it's interesting that they have set up the system with set points, so that the generator will come on line, when significant loads appear at the same time the battery SOC is relative low. It sounds like they are using the generator to handle the voltage sag of the AHI bank, at a lower SOC with loads.
I am seriously considering going the AHI route, and was thinking of going with a slightly smaller AHI stack quantity than originally planned. To deal with voltage sag, I would put in place a small LiFePo4 pack, that is set up to engage (ie put in parallel) with the AHI pack, thus, boosting the voltage and preventing the inverter from prematurely kicking out at lower SOC's.
For example, I would install say qty 10, S20 stacks into a 48 volt bank. This equates to roughly 20kwh of storage. If voltage of this pack under load drops below an adjustable preset level, I would engage the LiFePo4 pack, which would be sized to handle sub C currents with typical loads that come on. For handling a 3 to 4 kw load, a relatively small 100 ah pack @ 48 volts would suffice. The LiFePo4 pack would only engage when the load is present, and disengage shortly after. The relay used to connect the LFP pack to the main bank would also double as your LVD. And the relay for charging the LFP pack would double as your HVD, where charging could be redirected to the main pack from a separate smaller CC and panel setup.
I think that the two chemistry's could do very well together. Maybe it was meant to be? :-[ The only concern I have is it may be desirable when cutting in the LFP bank to do it softly rather than full on?
It would seem that introducing Li into the equation greatly complicates the whole set up compared to just a AHI, where the SOC really doesn't matter. You would lose out on almost all of the benefits of the AHI stack in doing so. BCS, SOC tolerances, temperature concerns, etc. adds a lot of complexity and monitoring needs that the AHI just doesn't have. For the money and the worry, I would lean towards another S20 or two to make sure the current flow is there in the lower SOC areas of the curve.
$.02 of course. I sure would like to see more AHI stories!
Quote from: xsnrg on February 22, 2015, 06:33:22 PM
It would seem that introducing Li into the equation greatly complicates the whole set up compared to just a AHI, where the SOC really doesn't matter. You would lose out on almost all of the benefits of the AHI stack in doing so. BCS, SOC tolerances, temperature concerns, etc. adds a lot of complexity and monitoring needs that the AHI just doesn't have. For the money and the worry, I would lean towards another S20 or two to make sure the current flow is there in the lower SOC areas of the curve.
Not sure how bad the voltage sag issue is with AHI with loads and at a lower SOC, but have a feeling that voltage drop could be a real PIA. Should only take a small LiFePo4 pack to deal with the problem, and voltage set points and a simple BMS monitor in place to protect it, is all that's needed.
If the LFP is just used on a more occasional basis, then issues with the user overseeing the balancing and monitoring of the cells won't be so intrusive, providing it's set up to operate in a safe range. Plus, if you ever did have a problem with the cells, it wouldn't be an absolute disaster! It's either that or limit DOD, which limits usable storage, and could mean more frequent generator run time, and perhaps having to deal with the inverter kicking out with loads?
Of course, setting it up would be a DIY project requiring some relatively simple circuit design and implementation, so may not be the best option for everyone. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
I too, think that adding LFP batteries to the mix will greatly complicate the system and lower overall reliability. (BMS failure points, yadda yadda yadda.)
With my NiFe, I oversized the bank to allow for the IR losses, but the liquid batteries are so high, that more parallel banks my cost too much. I like the idea of the genset powering up to handle larger loads, and do a bit of recharge at the same time.
Quote from: mike90045 on February 23, 2015, 12:32:41 PM
I too, think that adding LFP batteries to the mix will greatly complicate the system and lower overall reliability. (BMS failure points, yadda yadda yadda.)
With my NiFe, I oversized the bank to allow for the IR losses, but the liquid batteries are so high, that more parallel banks my cost too much. I like the idea of the genset powering up to handle larger loads, and do a bit of recharge at the same time.
I have to run the generator in winter irregardless, but from about mid February to mid October I have practically zero run time, so having the extra boost to get through cloudy days could work well with AHI batteries. It's either that or significantly over sizing the bank, which could be very expensive!
At least this small LiFePo4 bank would be relatively inexpensive, and can be run for long periods maintenance free, if set up properly.
N/56... what about the inverse setup, a slightly larger Li as the main bank sized to run all small loads and the AHI to kick in when doing heavy work? Just a thought....
Quote from: Westbranch on February 23, 2015, 04:25:10 PM
N/56... what about the inverse setup, a slightly larger Li as the main bank sized to run all small loads and the AHI to kick in when doing heavy work? Just a thought....
I figure that the AHI will have the best overall cost performance, and for efficiency, is best suited to lighter loads. LFP is better suited to handling heavier loads efficiently. With my system, loads are light most of the time and are only heavy on occasion, thus the reason to boost with the LFP when needed, but run economically with lighter loads the majority of the time.
Battery tech is jumping forward in all sorts of directions. It is a good time to be a battery nerd. Here is another company working hard on storage:
http://www.eosenergystorage.com/technology/ (http://www.eosenergystorage.com/technology/)
And another one using capacitors in the cell... http://www.ecoult.com/?_cldee=ZXJpYy5qb2hhbnNlbkBzaGF3LmNh
Quote
UltraBattery® â€" a completely new class of advanced lead-acid battery technology.
Y'Know, I am a flooded kinda guy. I would LOVE to experience the Trojan 2v RE cells. They have the guts for a guy like me. Seems that we could run these babies down to, like, crap, and still have thousands of cycles left. Not the most "high-tech", but real Mac Trucks. One of my customers has bought a set of used 4v Trojans and, other than need ing a trio of young toughs to carry the suckers, is loving them to death. Just old-guy 6V talkin' here.....
Moby
Quote from: mobywile on February 27, 2015, 08:57:44 PM
Y'Know, I am a flooded kinda guy. I would LOVE to experience the Trojan 2v RE cells.
Those are at the very bottom of my list of desirable batteries. The reason is that each 2-volt cell is actually three 2-volt cells in parallel. Three times as many cells to water.
Trojan does make some high quality 2-volt
single cell batteries in their Industrial line, but the 2-volt cells in their RE line makes very little sense to me. Someone must be buying them or they wouldn't make them...
--vtMaps
Alt-E has some more documentation up on the AHI stacks: http://www.altestore.com/store/Deep-Cycle-Batteries/Batteries-Saltwater-Technology/Aquion-Energy-S20-Pre-wired-Battery-Stack-51Ah48V/p11629/ (http://www.altestore.com/store/Deep-Cycle-Batteries/Batteries-Saltwater-Technology/Aquion-Energy-S20-Pre-wired-Battery-Stack-51Ah48V/p11629/)
I built a spreadsheet to help me understand the temperature charging characteristics. The 59v at 5A at 30C makes sense, but when you figure out the ramp rate on how temperature affects charging, it seems to be a higher rate for the AHI vs lead acid. Thankfully there is a lot of adjustment room in a Midnite controller. They do break it down into bulk/absorb/float speak, which is nice.
A stupid question perhaps.
Can the 48 volt aquin batteries packs be split into 24 volt as they appear to be plug and play?
And any updates of their usage and costs.
Quote from: russ_drinkwater on December 04, 2015, 03:48:44 PM
A stupid question perhaps.
Can the 48 volt aquin batteries packs be split into 24 volt as they appear to be plug and play?
And any updates of their usage and costs.
yes they use standard MC4 connectors. I have them on several 24v systems and a couple 12v systems
I'm not sure the company recommends splitting the stacks. I'm pretty sure it's frowned upon. However, it looks like they should be divisible easily.
Use and cost..... I'm happy so far. My fla Rolls bank drove me crazy because I worried about them, probably more than I should have. They don't seem to really like the cold, capacity wise. Full sun a few times a month for more than a few minutes would really be nice and probably help my capacity issues.
If your system is such that you may ever need gen back-up I would say it has to be auto start. Or you have to be OK with low voltage disconnects because they fall off a cliff at the lower voltages. YMMV
Wade