On page 25 the KID manual lists the "Battery connected load modes" (Manual, Night Light, Day light,PWM Divert, Float On, Float Off, Diversion and Toggle), each of which can be set to OFF or AUTO.
Could someone please help me understand
1. what is the purpose of setting up these modes
2. what do they mean,
3. how do I determine which ones I should be turning on,
4. can more than one can be turned on.
( actually if I get an answer to #1, I may able to figure out the others)
I run a search on "load modes" but did not return anything helpful.
My only load is a DC refrigerator which is connected to the battery.
Thanks
No replies yet ... I guess I will have to bring this up to MidNite Solar's tech support.
Quote from: thanasis on September 29, 2014, 12:49:04 AM
On page 25 the KID manual lists the "Battery connected load modes" (Manual, Night Light, Day light,PWM Divert, Float On, Float Off, Diversion and Toggle), each of which can be set to OFF or AUTO.
Could someone please help me understand
1. what is the purpose of setting up these modes
2. what do they mean,
3. how do I determine which ones I should be turning on,
4. can more than one can be turned on.
( actually if I get an answer to #1, I may able to figure out the others)
I run a search on "load modes" but did not return anything helpful.
My only load is a DC refrigerator which is connected to the battery.
Thanks
1- The purpose of setting one of these modes up is to use the Kids Load circuit to do something usefull for you. For example I have a Kid that is on my boiler building and it is always dark out there so I set up Night Light mode and put a 12v light outside the building. Now anytime the battery has enough juice and it is dark the light is on.
2- Most are explanatory:
Manual= Manually turns the load circuit on or off
Night Light = On when it is dark out
Day Light = On when it is light out
PWM Divert = Diversion mode that does Pulse Width Modulation to burn off any extra power not needed for the batteries
Float on = On when in float
Float off = off when in float
Diversion = Ob above a set voltage (You set the voltage)
Toggle = test mode it toggles on and off so you can test your load circuit
3- You would only use one and you would have to determine that one based on what you are trying to do with the loads
4- No
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 30, 2014, 06:03:28 AM2- Most are explanatory:
Manual= Manually turns the load circuit on or off
Night Light = On when it is dark out
Day Light = On when it is light out
PWM Divert = Diversion mode that does Pulse Width Modulation to burn off any extra power not needed for the batteries
Float on = On when in float
Float off = off when in float
Diversion = Ob above a set voltage (You set the voltage)
Toggle = test mode it toggles on and off so you can test your load circuit
So, would PWM Divert automatically enable at absorb, or float? It wouldn't be enabled during Bulk, would it?
Free Energy Freak,
I have been experimenting with PWM divert mode, that is exactly what it does, first priority....charge battery banks.......when batteries charged and voltage rises to set point then diversion happens. I am in my yearly coastal fog time now so I can't do it full time , results are totally dependent on mother nature.
PWM divert is not enabled at bulk in a normal setup. The divert set point would have to be set too low to top up the batteries, diverting will pull the voltage down to where you will not get to adsorb if the set point is too low. I guess that will depend on diversion load and panel size.
I have done diversion with a Classic 150, Trace C-40 and now with the Kid, 10 gallon GE water heater from Home Depot with the element and thermostat swapped out for 24 volt ones from Missouri Wind and Solar. About $90. For the heater and ~$65.00 for the element and thermostat.......free hot water without taxing batteries or running inverter. Heater is 600 watt 24 volt. There are a few small water heaters out there less than 20 gallons that have dual elements that would be better for this but I don't have that much extra space.
td
Quote from: Free Energy Freak on September 30, 2014, 06:56:09 AM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 30, 2014, 06:03:28 AM2- Most are explanatory:
Manual= Manually turns the load circuit on or off
Night Light = On when it is dark out
Day Light = On when it is light out
PWM Divert = Diversion mode that does Pulse Width Modulation to burn off any extra power not needed for the batteries
Float on = On when in float
Float off = off when in float
Diversion = Ob above a set voltage (You set the voltage)
Toggle = test mode it toggles on and off so you can test your load circuit
So, would PWM Divert automatically enable at absorb, or float? It wouldn't be enabled during Bulk, would it?
PWM divert would be enabled anytime you are near the target voltage. it uses a negative offset (-0.2 for example) and any time the offset is reached in relation to whatever charge stage it is in it starts to PWM the load to maintain that voltage.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 30, 2014, 06:03:28 AM
1- The purpose of setting one of these modes up is to use the Kids Load circuit to do something usefull for you. For example I have a Kid that is on my boiler building and it is always dark out there so I set up Night Light mode and put a 12v light outside the building. Now anytime the battery has enough juice and it is dark the light is on.
2- Most are explanatory:
Manual= Manually turns the load circuit on or off
Night Light = On when it is dark out
Day Light = On when it is light out
PWM Divert = Diversion mode that does Pulse Width Modulation to burn off any extra power not needed for the batteries
Float on = On when in float
Float off = off when in float
Diversion = Ob above a set voltage (You set the voltage)
Toggle = test mode it toggles on and off so you can test your load circuit
3- You would only use one and you would have to determine that one based on what you are trying to do with the loads
4- No
Thank you Halfcrazy for detailed explanation.
I was under the impression that the KID's load terminals receive current ONLY from the PVs bypassing the battery. If I understand correctly, this is not the case, instead, the KID's Load terminals provide battery juice to loads subject to user-specified conditions that are set via the "Battery Load" parameters listed on page 25 of the manual. But now that I have said that, how does this definition squares with the meaning of "diversion" which seems to be "stop sending any charge the batteries and conditionally divert the current directly to a load attached to the Load terminals". I guess might be that the diversion modes are the only modes that when set, direct current to the load directly bypassing the battery. Does this make any sense?
No the load circuit is battery voltage only. Nothing to do with the PV voltage
Quote from: thanasis on September 30, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
how does this definition squares with the meaning of "diversion" which seems to be "stop sending any charge the batteries and conditionally divert the current directly to a load attached to the Load terminals". I guess might be that the diversion modes are the only modes that when set, direct current to the load directly bypassing the battery.
When a battery is fully charged, a solar charge controller stops harvesting power and the solar panels stop producing power.
With wind and hydro, when the battery is fully charged, the wind or hydro controller continues to send power to the battery. A diversion controller connects to the battery and if it sees the battery getting overcharged it "bleeds off" power from the battery (to a 'dump' load) so the battery does not get overcharged.
You could charge with solar this way... you would connect your PV panels directly to the battery. The diversion controller would be set to not let the battery go above absorb voltage. When the PV panels have charged the battery, the diversion controller then diverts as much power from the battery as the PV panels are putting into the battery.
--vtMaps
Quote from: vtmaps on September 30, 2014, 02:37:04 PM
... A diversion controller connects to the battery and if it sees the battery getting overcharged it "bleeds off" power from the battery (to a 'dump' load) so the battery does not get overcharged.
...
vtMaps,
Your mentioning of <<diversion controller>> opened up a whole new area for me to explore. The Kid obviously functions as a diversion controller under certain conditions... it has to dump excess amps in order to protect the batteries from overcharging, which is critical when wind turbines are the source.
It is also becoming obvious to this newby that there is a alternative to wiring a load: via the Kid's Load Terminals ...duh!.
The latter gives one the option to select the condition ( load mode) under which load would receive power , plus offers an outlet to dump excess energy.
In my application, I have the main load ( a refrigerator) wired directly to the battery. If my understanding is correct, I could wire a fan to the Load Terminals, and set the battery load mode to "Float On". I should expect the fan to come on when I am "floating".
Thanks!
Quote from: thanasis on September 29, 2014, 12:49:04 AM
On page 25 the KID manual lists the "Battery connected load modes" (Manual, Night Light, Day light,PWM Divert, Float On, Float Off, Diversion and Toggle), each of which can be set to OFF or AUTO.
Could someone please help me understand
1. what is the purpose of setting up these modes
2. what do they mean,
3. how do I determine which ones I should be turning on,
4. can more than one can be turned on.
( actually if I get an answer to #1, I may able to figure out the others)
I run a search on "load modes" but did not return anything helpful.
My only load is a DC refrigerator which is connected to the battery.
Thanks
thanasis, good of you to bring up this in open forum. I had similar questions that I directly asked Tech Support @ MNS.
Thanks
Halfcrazy and
tecnodave for your informative responses.
Roy@MNS sent me the attached PDF. It was taken from the Classic instruction manual. There hasn't been further detailed write up about the function in the KID manual, so we'll have to extrapolate a bit from the Classic feature set but it's similar and it'll hopefully help a bit.
I'm interested in diverting excess supply of PV power (once I've reached FLOAT) to a small grid-tie inverter (300w - 500w) to help supplement my home AC grid.
tecnodave: Do you have links or makes and models re this:
There are a few small water heaters out there less than 20 gallons that have dual elements that would be better for this but I don't have that much extra space.
I am looking for 5 gal or less waterheater to be powered or at least hopefully assisted by pv for my rv.
@E350
I did post about my 24 volt / 120 volt water heater conversion but it's in its own thread----dual voltage water heater I will post on sports mobile.com as well so others can do this easier than I did.
This was not my first try at this
td
Thanks, I like the idea and so do many others. How many watts do you consider "over paneling" There is one member on the forum with a Sprinter with 600w on his roof.
And as far as the load diversion function to heat the water heater, do you prefer the MPPT Kid or possibly the soon to come out PWM Brat?
Quote from: E350 on October 22, 2014, 07:57:01 PM
There is one member on the forum with a Sprinter with 600w on his roof.
Probably mounted flat on the roof? Even less of a worry as the panels will never see the optimum sun angle.
@E350
Over paneling depends on many factors, in my case I have enough to make it through several days of fog without running a generator to top batteries. A kid at 24 volts can safely handle 800 watts but I have seen 942 watts from one kid on my motorhome with 1020 watts of panel. It was maxing out at 30 amps. That is a bit over paneled. To be more conservative of my equipment now I am using two kids to power motorhome. 1020 watts on two kids is very conservative but I can run on one alone if need be. I have installed extra breakers so system can be two separate controllers or bully mode or follow me mode.
The main panel racks for the motorhome covers the entire roof except the cab over area. The rack is built from awning arms mounted to the roof so that they can tilt to left or right. they are 7' X 8' each and mount three Sharp 170 watt poly panels in top row in portrait orientation and four Siemens 55 watt mono panels for the 12 volt system in landscape orientation on each half.
I have a total of 1460 watts on the roof and an additional set of Suntech 280 watt panels 560 watts total on a ground mount for a total of 2020 watts in.
This motorhome is not used on the highway........it lives in the country as a mobile house....maybe moved twice yearly. This is not a huge motorhome....it's a Tioga Class C 24 foot on a Chevy van C-30 chassis. Main battery set is 500 pounds and standby is 250 pounds.
I just love the kid controller, in the past I had used a MPPT controller that could not be set to match the battery set. That caused me to have to top off the batteries with the generator set which is the most wasteful time to use the gen but the non adjustable controllers just cannot top off anything but the most common batteries. I almost ruined a good set of L-16's using non adjustable controllers and at this point if I cannot set every value to fit my system then I don't want to mess with it. The Brat comes from good lineage but it is limited in that it is not adjustable. I'm sure that it will have a better charge profile than the competition which is Chinese or the Chinese Morningstar.
I'm using an old standard PWM controller on my 12 volt system rather than newer MPPT controller because the old Trace C-40 can be set to the voltage I need and my much newer and more efficient Chinese Tracer MPPT controllers can not be set. They leave the battery at 1.220 s.g.... To me that is dead! I want to see 1.265 s.g.
I am a technologist and I need to control my entire system to the nth degree....I need a lot from it
I demand a lot from it.....I built it!
I think that if I had a retail Kid with 600 watts of panels on a 12 volt system that I would be sure that the Kid has plenty of ventilation and maybe set the current limit down to maybe 25 amps or so unless you really need all that power, in that case two kids teaming together would be way more conservative design and would be more reliable in the long run as you would not be running at max all the time.
If the panels are flat on the roof then 600 watts panels corrected for angle would be more like 400 watts output max so one kid can handle that without a problem. I don't like the idea of running at max power for extended lengths of time, it does not lead to longevity.
td
Mtn Don and tecnodave: My panels are mounted flat-nontiltable. But I want to modify my design to add the hinges in VanGuy6678's ingenious preliminary tiltable design. See it at:
http://sportsmobileforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14746&hilit=how+do+you+mount+your+solar+panels%3F&start=15
tecnodave: I hope you don't mind that I am reposting some of your posts (with attribution to you and links to here) over at the SportsMobileForum.com where there are some much smarter and technologist type guys are very interested in your input. Your discussion re overpaneling was quite helpful. Among other things, I learned that "over paneling" does not refer to hanging your panels over the edge of your rv's roof, but refers to a condition where the maximum array output wattage exceeds that of the charge controller's recommended maximum input wattage. Good to know.
If I can ask: First, for a 12v dc rv house battery set up, do you believe that 12v panels or 24v panels (or other) are best?
The reason I ask is that I have done some reading on this issue and came to the conclusion that maybe the "headroom" (i.e., difference between the 12v battery voltage and the 17.6 - 17.8 or so max panel output voltage (Vmp) in a parallel wired 12v panel array is not large enough for an MPPT controller such as the Kid to exploit, and, thus a PWM controller might be "better." Or can the Kid be as efficient as the Brat PWM? Can it know automatically when to operate in PWM (legacy?) mode or can it be manually set to operate that way? Or is it irrelevant how it operates?
The second reason I ask is because the 12v panels seem to have the right length for an rv (i.e., 47" long) and I have had trouble sourcing 24v panels of the same dimension.
My third question is: What is "s.g." ? (E.g. 1.220 s.g. vs. 1.265 s.g.) And how do you monitor it?
E350;
I can give you the answer to #3:
S.G. is Specific Gravity. In this case it refers to the battery electrolyte compared to pure water. 1.000 would be pure water and electrolyte is heavier than water so it has a higher SG. If that helps.
Tom
E350
I have good luck with my ancient Siemens 36 cell "12 volt" panels but I do run them 2 in series for 34 volts in for my kid or tracer on 12 volt systems. A little more headroom allows more power to be produced in marginal times.....shading , fog and such.
As I do have matching pairs of controllers I have been able to do direct side by side testing and I think that best efficiency and output will be with panels at 34 volts for 12 volt systems and at 68 volts for 24 volt systems. I have tried 105 volt strings on a 24 volt battery and have gotten more heating from the Chinese Tracers, Classic 150, and the Kid controllers. I conclude that 105 volt string is too high a voltage conversion ratio for most MPPT controllers. I have some 30 cell and 60 cell panels but I don't use them much as the voltage is a bit too low. If I use modern grid tie 60 cell panels then I need to run three in series for a volts in of 90 volts which is less efficient than two 72 cell panels at 68 volts in.
I still have over 50 of the old Siemens but the newer panels are more effecient so I have been switching to the 32" X 64" form factor "24 volt" 72 cell @ 125 mm. Size cells. These are much easier fo fit in tight spaces than the latest version panels which have 156 mm. Cells and are a handful to handle. There are some good " 24 volt" panels out there that are reasonable in size for R.V. /Sportsmobile applications. There is one S.F. Bay Area company that makes a good one for that application. Check out ML Solar of Cambell,CA they have MLS-A-100 100 watt "12 volt" panel 46"X26". Nice quality. ML Solar is a buyer of overstock panels and cells and markets panels under there own label as well as others . I bought Toppoint 190 watt 32"X 64" panels for $130. From them with full warranty . Good service, good folks......They do sell some panels/cells with a very limited warranty.......do ask!
You do have my permission to repost my posts on Sportsmobile.com. I have been very busy lately as I have taken on another major project which is eating all my spare minutes. It is a real joy for me to be able to share my experiences with others as I enjoy tinkering electricity
td