About 10 days ago I installed a 2nd Lite 150 to handle my entire PV array. Prior to this I was using one Lite and shutting down some of my PV, some of the time. When I installed a second 150 it seemed to work OK. It seemed to be "lazy" coming on-line in the AM, but it eventually began to charge, and I was getting an expected amount of charge. I have updated my firmware to 1933, done the factory reboot, updated my Remote MNGP, etc.
Yesterday I noticed that I got about 20% of my expected charge, and today, nothing. I have disconnected both my arrays and battery, for 5 minutes, and turned the controllers off and back on. All of the blinky lights do as they should, I think. In "Follow Me" the # 10 Master is the one that doesn't respond. It does, however, have COMM because it goes through the SOC drill exactly like the other one, except it goes to "Resting" all on its own sometimes.
3 days ago I was in the battery room and both controllers had the D2 yellow LED on. FET temps were in the high 80's.
I am in need of direction, please. There seem to be a ton of ways to begin searching for a solution, but I am unsure where to start so that I don't "shotgun" this and learn nothing.
I do have the R132, I think. Is it on the back side of the board? Only the top 2 CB penetrations show signs of a device being present. I know there was a picture in here somewhere but I can't find it again...
Rudderless at 7500 feet.
Hi moby..,
Just to try to get things started ...
So, each Classic has its own PV array, right?
What PVs are you running for each Classic -- mfg and model number, please?
What is the Vin into each Classic?
What is the battery voltage? What battery type -- Flooded, AGM, Gel, etc (?).
In the Limits menu, have you looked at, and reset appropriately, the Limit ranges for the Max and Min Compensated charge voltage?
In the latest firmware, there is Temp Comp reference point, as I read it. After doing the "Reset", after the Firmware update, this reference can be set to 10 degrees C. This appears to be inappropriate for many battery types -- 25 C is the most common Ref temp.
Are either of the Classics "Resting"?
Thanks for the replies, Vic
Hi Vic,
Thanks for the prompt reply. I'll try to get this going with you. Bear with me. Long story here which has resulted in this upgrade/hardware change. Another time...
Each Lite has its own array. I have this sinking feeling that, for some reason unbeknownst to me, my arrays are
contaminating each other. I turned off all my panel breakers. I have 6 - 3 feeding each controller. I turn on breaker #1 and it shows up as a charge on Lite #11; I turn on breaker #6 - which should be the other end of the #10 source, and it still shows up charging on Lite #11 also - never wakes up or shows up on as amps in on Lite #10. Curious...
I have 14 Suntech STP180S-24Adb panels in 2 arrays. 9 to one Lite and 5 to the other. I have the other 4 to add to the 5 at some point. I need to build new racking for the remainder.
24V nominal input to the Lites. I have 16 L-16 Flooded Lead-Acid batteries in a 12V configuration.
Battery temp. is at default 25C.
The Lite that appears to be in revolt is sometimes, but seldom, "Resting". The rest of the time it does the "Follow Me" to perfection as far as "Bulk" and "Float" are concerned.
I am not familiar with the "Limits" menu. Enlightenment would be appreciated.
I am changing my system in response to a forest fire here 2 years ago. Lots of compromised parts and pieces, both indoors and out, which I limped along with until catastrophic failure. We have been off-grid since 1980 - I am still using stacked Trace 2012s. Midnite makes the best stuff these days. I remember when the Trace 612 was introduced and we could finally recommend a reliable product to our customers. Dave Katz was my "connection" back in the day... Davey Rippner kept me from going insane...
So, Vic, help and old dude enter the 21st century and we'll be forever grateful.
Hi moby..,
OK, well, am spoiled by using the standard Classics, and have never used the Local App. But there must be a menu in the LA to configure the charge setpoints, temp comp, etc. On the standard Classic, there is a Limits menu, under the Charge main menu. The later FW has the charge voltage Limited to a range that can be too narrow for FLAs.
If you turned off Follow Me, and tested each Classic Lite separately, this might show something. Also, if your Combiner is easily available, and has one breaker for each string of PVs, this might allow you to see the contribution of each string, individually.
Assume that you are using the Battery Temp Sensor, attached to one battery ...
Those PVs are real 24 V jobs, so that should be enough Vin for a 12 v system. Are you running single PVs per string? Or strings of three on one Lite, and singles on the other, just for curiosity.
And, is there any chance that the PV wiring was damaged in that fire, which might cause the "contamination" ?
Boy!! 8 strings of L-16, that must be a bit of a management chore!
OK more later, Thanks Vic
Quote from: mobywile on February 03, 2015, 10:52:51 PM
Each Lite has its own array. I have this sinking feeling that, for some reason unbeknownst to me, my arrays are
contaminating each other. I turned off all my panel breakers. I have 6 - 3 feeding each controller. I turn on breaker #1 and it shows up as a charge on Lite #11; I turn on breaker #6 - which should be the other end of the #10 source, and it still shows up charging on Lite #11 also - never wakes up or shows up on as amps in on Lite #10. Curious...
OK, it sounds like a wiring problem. You MUST figure this out FIRST. All the adjustments to the classics will not help if there is a wiring problem.
btw, if there is a wiring problem, it will be very difficult on a forum such as this to walk you through the steps needed to diagnose the problem.... you may need to hire a solar professional.
--vtMaps
Moby
Can you post pictures here or email them to me ryan@midnitesolar.com
I would like to see as many pictures of the combiner as you can (Well as many as needed to show me all the wiring) I have a feeling you are correct and the 2 arrays are cross talking DC and that will for sure make some very odd behavior on the Classics
Gotta love wiring errors. So easy to make and not so easy to track down.
I agree, you cannot even begin until you audit the wiring and make that right.
Pretty sure HalfCrazy will sort you out if you toss some photos of the combiners, etc his way.
Occasionally, starting from scratch on a mess of cables might be easiest.
I will back out now so the pros can help.
Tom
Thanks guys. 17F out there today and snowing hard. Not the best day to be checking wiring.
I found the limits menu and the settings look good.
"Combiner Box" is an interesting way to put it. I did most of this work before 1990 when I put up my old Arco M-55s. Boy do I wish I hadn't had them compromised during the fire!
I have 3 panels wired in a series string into a Square D QO 2-slot, 4-circuit breaker panel. So, 2 strings on 3 racks on one ground mount. Each string has a 20A QO breaker as a disconnect. These are wired in conduit underground to a "Big Box Painted Gray " where the #4 THHN is up sized to a 2/0 THHN for a 180' run to the house. Each Positive and Negative have a 2/0 run. I have 6 strings, or will have when I mount the rest of my panels. That's 12 pieces of 2/0 180' long. Those were the days, weren't they...
These are combined in more "Big Boxes Painted Gray" in the battery room and "combined" into 2 feeds for the Lites. They are very separated, or, at least always seemed to have been.
Prior to my upgrades, I was using 2 Ananda Power Systems 60A PWM charge controllers with the Arcos. Worked great for decades. With no problems like I'm having now.
I think the probelm, if it is wiring, is somewhere in the array wiring. I am NOT tearing into it today. I will disable the "Follow Me" for now, and bring the charging capacity of the entire array below 100A and let it run through the Lite that seems to be behaving normally.
Thanks for the help. I'll embarrass myself and send some pics later.
QuoteEach string has a 20A QO breaker as a disconnect.
don't know what is feeding into that combiner box as far as panels in series but the specs call for a 15A CB not 20A
QuoteSeries Fuse Rating 15A
http://king-solarman.com/solar-panels-1/suntech-solar-panels/180-watt-stp180s-24-adb-superpoly-solar-panel.html
hth
Appreciate the contact, Solarman. I guess we have always assumed that we protect the wire downstream with breakers; 20A with #6 in and #4 out should be fine. Please don't get started on the wire sizes. I am aware of what I've done, I think. All quite short runs and any voltage drop is inconsequential. If there were going to be problems with impedance, etc. I think I would have noticed at some point since 1988 when I started this project. I am, however, humbled by all the help I have been receiving and am willing to be proven wrong.
Your place looks great. We slowly built our system as well, from a home made - yes, soldered the crystals myself - 15w panel, some AGC fuses in a wood box, used 12v car battery, and one PL fluorescent light. A monster change from the kerosene lights we were using up 'til then. Oh, no charge controller. I pulled a fuse when the battery bubbled!
The reason for that CB is to protect the other strings if one panel has a short and starts to backfeed the other strings.
You do not want a CB of a higher value than the one the Manufacturer recommends.
Oversized wire is good, but can be expensive...
Quote from: Westbranch on February 04, 2015, 04:03:09 PM
The reason for that CB is to protect the other strings if one panel has a short and starts to backfeed the other strings.
I'm always bemused by this.
If you have two strings, and breakers on each, and one string develops a short (lets say a worst-case dead-short), the maximum current you'll get back will be I(sc) of the other array.
The breakers are specified somewhat higher than I(sc), so there isn't enough current to trip it anyway!
(The circumstances might be different if you have more than 2 parallel strings without isolating diodes, or if they connect directly to a battery - but how is the breaker ever supposed to trip in a one or two string setup?)
Ross, I agree with your ''how is it ever going to happen with 2 strings'', however there is an S at the end of my statement......stringS
I love this! I have 3, 24v, 180w panels in series - 5A output each. The "string" is wired to the input side of a 20A Square D QO breaker, which I use as a disconnect. This is putting 15A at 24V nominal into a 20A rated breaker. Now, I was taught that breakers are load sized at 80% of the rating. Therefore, in my small world, I have 16A (80% of 20A) of continuous protection. Am I missing something? Doesn't this cover the possibility of a short somewhere? From the output side of this I run continuous to a "combiner" in my battery room that busses 3 of these inputs to a single wire feeding the Lite. This occurs on both the + and - sides. Huge wire, well separated.
I state again. I am an old fart who got into this stuff 34 years ago. In the 21st century, I know nothing! Learn me up, please.
I have never participated in a forum of any kind before and I am impressed by the "community" of this. Learnin' new stuff every day. I have expected temps in the 20's and up tomorrow. I'll be out there early checking my wiring. I have a feeling I've sorted out the wiring part. Maybe then we can get on with the Lite acting weird - to me anyway.
Quote from: mobywile on February 04, 2015, 08:29:45 PM
I love this! I have 3, 24v, 180w panels in series - 5A output each. The "string" is wired to the input side of a 20A Square D QO breaker, which I use as a disconnect. This is putting 15A at 24V nominal into a 20A rated breaker.
NOPE, for
series strings you add the voltage so 72 Volts and in series the Amps stay the same, so 5A. that is why the specs cal for a 15A fuse max.
Quote from: mobywile on February 04, 2015, 08:29:45 PMNow, I was taught that breakers are load sized at 80% of the rating. Therefore, in my small world, I have 16A (80% of 20A) of continuous protection. Am I missing something? Doesn't this cover the possibility of a short somewhere? From the output side of this I run continuous to a "combiner" in my battery room that busses 3 of these inputs to a single wire feeding the Lite.
NOW you have 15Amps because the 3
parallel strings are being combined ..
Quote from: mobywile on February 04, 2015, 08:29:45 PMThis occurs on both the + and - sides. Huge wire, well separated.
I state again. I am an old fart who got into this stuff 34 years ago. In the 21st century, I know nothing! Learn me up, please.
I have never participated in a forum of any kind before and I am impressed by the "community" of this. Learnin' new stuff every day. I have expected temps in the 20's and up tomorrow. I'll be out there early checking my wiring. I have a feeling I've sorted out the wiring part. Maybe then we can get on with the Lite acting weird - to me anyway.
Hopefully we will be able to diagnose those big grey boxes for you, I am thinking there is maybe one bad wire/connection
Thanks. I get rolling along here and make the most basic errors. Parallel!
Now, when I changed to the new panels, I had to rewire my strings through the same junction boxes I used for the M-55s. I think, in one of the boxes I may have connected two strings together on the + side where they are all in one place. This may not make sense right now. BUT, the temp is rising and maybe when I get up in the AM it will be calm and comfy out there in the snow.
Oh boy - playin' sparky in the snow. My fave...
Snap a few pics and analyze them in the house before trying to 'adjust' the connections.. Drawing it all out, if it doesn't seem obvious, might help...
2 together, ,,, right, especially if the negatives are on the other CC...
This is almost funny. I was checking voltage on the at the array in buses, which are "completely separated. Almost. I have an old Cruising Equipment Amp Hour + which I have used forever. Ever wire one of those things? Very messy. Anyhow, the signal wire that reads array input is connected to both of them. It was giving me the same voltage reading on both buses. Disconnected it and it went away.
Now, I have not redone any wiring outside. But, with the patient assistance of my wife, I have, by using the MNGP Remote, a DMM, and some walkie-talkies, checked all input combinations from all strings. There is no cross contamination that I can find. The 2 strings wired to the Lite that is working both show up, individually and together, correctly on the MNGP. When I turn on any or all of the other 3 strings, there is no change in the input amps being detected my the MNGP. All seems to be stable and nice. If I turn those 2 strings off and activate the 3 strings that are wired to the Lite that is not working, there is no amperage input detected by the MNGP. Input voltage measured at the blue terminal block matches the array voltage on the MNGP for both units, as does the battery voltage.
Here's a pic of my big gray box out at the arrays. This is where the wire sizes get big for the long run to the house. Made it all by myself, I did.
Gotta go to town for the afternoon. Thanks for helping. Later...
I do have both of the negatives connected to the Lites. There is no detected voltage from any negative to earth ground.
I undid and disconnected the "Follow Me", did a shutdown of all I/O sources for 5 minutes, turned them back on and all seems well. Fan test on both, blinky light sequences OK, no alarms or red lights.
Have I done everything I can to this point?
Hi moby..,
On the Lite that is "not working", what is the Mode that it is running, or is the Mode Off?
And, what IS the input voltage on this non-working Lite?
What is the battery voltage at that time.
What state is this Lite in at this time? Is it Resting?
Did not know that you had the MNGP...
Have you looked for the Reason For Resting (RFR) on the non-working Lite?
With the non-working Lite selected on the MNGP, Press and hold the Left Arrow key, and tap the Enter key. There should be a screen of numbers displayed. On the top row, the center number should be the RFR. What is that number?
Here is a Link to RFRs:
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=2034.0
Thanks, Vic
OK Vic! Here we go.
Mode is "Solar" and is ON.
Input V is, depending on the sun, around 32V. Battery V is/was 13V.
RFR is #5, normal, I assume. Of course, I have had the panels off to that controller today. When the sun is out and they are on, they mimic the other controller, i.e. Bulk, Float, etc., most of the time. It will sometimes stay at Rest even with input and battery voltages above the threshold levels.
I'm stumped. Is it possible that I need to reinstall the 1933 firmware and do the factory restart again?
Any idea where I can get an rj45 wifi adapter so we can, maybe, install the local network program? Noone I asked in the "stores" has a clue. If it ain't USB, it just ain't. Would this be of any assistance in diagnosing this situation?
Thanks for bearing with the old dude who lives in a previous era. You guys will bring me into this century, and I will love it when it happens.
Not sure if it helps or not, but wifi to ethernet devices are pretty common. Here is an example:
http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Universal-Ethernet-Adapter-GWU627/dp/B004UAKCS6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1423187482&sr=8-3&keywords=wi-fi+to+ethernet+adapter (http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Universal-Ethernet-Adapter-GWU627/dp/B004UAKCS6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1423187482&sr=8-3&keywords=wi-fi+to+ethernet+adapter)
Thanks. I don't think this is what is needed. I have a wireless router and the Classic/Lite has an ethernet (rj45 female) port. I could run a very long cable through the house, but I'd rather have a wireless device that my computer could recognize and communicate with. That would have an rj45 male and some sort of antenna, I think. This is all part of the conversion from Barney Rubble to 21st Century Man.
Again, I appreciate everyone's input.
Quote from: mobywile on February 05, 2015, 08:34:15 PM
OK Vic! Here we go.
Mode is "Solar" and is ON.
Input V is, depending on the sun, around 32V. Battery V is/was 13V.
RFR is #5, normal, I assume. ... It will sometimes stay at Rest even with input and battery voltages above the threshold levels.
Hi moby...,,
Thanks for the additional info on the Mode abd the Vin and Vbatt.
This is the definition of RFR #5:
ReasonForResting = 5 Too low power and Vbatt below set point for 90 seconds
The reason that the RFR codes are in the Classics, is that it helps a lot in diagnosing problems that folks in the field are having.
If you have the chance to look at the RFR when you believe that the Classic should be making power, please try to catch the RFR at that point, it could help a lot.
If you want, you can just reload the current version of the Firmware over the previous version, and do another Reset to factory settings (also known as VMM).
More later, hang in there think that we are making some progress, Thanks, Vic
OK Vic. Got the program. I'll reload the firmware and restart tomorrow AM.
Also, I'll monitor the "Resting". Hell. I'm retired and did all my "town errands" today. Supposed to be sunny and, can you believe it, 60+ tomorrow. Great weather to be out in the sunshine.
Local App: First you want to get the communication setup with the RJ45 cable supplies with the classic.
Then, when you know you have it working you can get a wireless bridge to your router... you can only look at one at a time even though there are 2 listed, you may have some headaches depending on which OS you re using... take your time as if you get one digit wrong it wont work...
see here for some info post #1 and 2 http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=2297.msg21651#msg21651
Quote from: mobywile on February 05, 2015, 09:01:01 PM
Thanks. I don't think this is what is needed. I have a wireless router and the Classic/Lite has an ethernet (rj45 female) port. I could run a very long cable through the house, but I'd rather have a wireless device that my computer could recognize and communicate with. That would have an rj45 male and some sort of antenna, I think. This is all part of the conversion from Barney Rubble to 21st Century Man.
Again, I appreciate everyone's input.
The simple solution is to put another wireless router near the Classics and plug the ethernet on the Classic into 2 of the router ports. Then set this router to a different IP than your existing router. Example: Use 192.168.2.1 For the Classic router use a different SID name and connect your computer wireless to that SID you then can run the LA and it will see both Classics.
OK, folks. I've spent the day checking wiring, wearing out my DMM, and I reran the firmware update and also did the hardware factory restart. Nothing seems to have changed. I AM needing to run my generator on a sunny day, though.
Now, If I somehow learn what an ISP is and drill a couple holes to run a Cat5 cable, where will I be? Will I have a huge menu of possibilities and data that I can communicate to get a next level of help? I don't mean "better", I mean, will I be able to make enough sense of the info that it will help one of you help me? I'm willing, just not terribly able.
I am willing to do/learn whatever I'm capable of to get through this. Your patience is highly appreciated. Thanks
Moby
The benefit of getting the Local App going is advance trouble shooting.
Thanks. Guess I'm on my way downstairs with a drill and some cable.
Quote from: mobywile on February 06, 2015, 05:21:14 PM
I've spent the day checking wiring, wearing out my DMM, and I reran the firmware update and also did the hardware factory restart. Nothing seems to have changed. I AM needing to run my generator on a sunny day, though.
Quote from: mobywile on February 06, 2015, 05:45:33 PM
Thanks. Guess I'm on my way downstairs with a drill and some cable.
Hold on there. Just because you didn't find the wiring fault, doesn't mean its not there. Your previous description of the problem sounds like a wiring fault:
Quote from: mobywile
Each Lite has its own array. I have this sinking feeling that, for some reason unbeknownst to me, my arrays are
contaminating each other. I turned off all my panel breakers. I have 6 - 3 feeding each controller. I turn on breaker #1 and it shows up as a charge on Lite #11; I turn on breaker #6 - which should be the other end of the #10 source, and it still shows up charging on Lite #11 also - never wakes up or shows up on as amps in on Lite #10. Curious...
Wiring faults can be very difficult to diagnose, but you must resolve this before ANYTHING else. Your problems may be related to DC bonding to ground, or ground fault protection. If any of your PV negatives are grounded, then they are connected to each other. Are there any chaffed wires that are getting grounded on a PV frame?
There are dozens of other possibilities... My point is, if you can't figure this out, hire someone who can.
--vtMaps
Moby;
I don't want to brow beat you over this but....
You MUST find any wiring errors before you do anything. Period. End Quote!.
Otherwise you will waste a lot of time chasing your tail.
You cannot fix a wiring problem any other way than fixing the error.
Just trying to save you some frustration.
Tom
Replace your PV Breakers. Square-D QO breakers are only rated @ 48VDC, not 49Volts DC, not 50volts DC. It sounds like internal arcing has damaged the internal contacts. If I'm correct and you have 3 x 24V 72 cell modules you have way more than 48VDC on those breakers.
Just recently started "flipping them" I bet while replacing the PWM CCs and now trouble-shooting the Classics.
Any statement of "Its been working" will only get me to ask "How about now?"
Buy these and be done with it:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=78&productCatName=Combiners&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=4&act=p
OR:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=77&productCatName=Combiners&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=5&act=pc
I'm very surprised none of you guys picked up on this...
OK folks. No breakers tripping, no voltages above the threshold that I can find, anywhere. I have checked every wire connection and found them to be OK. I have NEVER had a breaker trip and I just went out and touched them - they are cool as can be. My question is, if there is internal arcing, why haven't they tripped? I don't have an E after my name, but I have quite a lot of experience troubleshooting system faults - electrically. Those guys you might have me hire very often call ME when they have a bug they can't find. So, please, assume I am doing everything I can to get through this. Oh, and I checked with my first customer who bought a Trace 4024 from me back in the day. She has never had an array breaker trip or fail. 21 years on line.
In full sun at 10AM, I have 44.2 volts in from the panels - at both Lites. Battery voltage is 12.9 volts at both Lites.
I am sorry, if I sound unhappy, but I have been trying to fix this for two weeks now. I installed this guy 0n 8/7/2013 and it has putted right along since then. Then, on 1/20/2015, I added the second Lite and turned on more panels. I have 8x on the Lite that is working, and 6x connected to the other one. All went fine for a week or so, and then the original Lite began remaining at rest longer than the new one. When it came up, it seemed to work fine.
I now have the local app installed and wired to the older Lite. Now I'll try to figure that out...
Back to school...
Moby
What bothers me is the Same voltage on both inputs. Try turning the mode off on one and see if the voltages still agree? Basically you need to see if there is cross talk or not.
Also, can we get pictures of the inside of the Square-D Branch Circuit panel you are using as a combiner box?
I would be assuming you are using the Neutral Bar as the common combiner for the PV Array Negatives?
And I assume by your description you are using the LINE-1 lug as an output and LINE-2 lug as an output?
and I assume you know in those breaker boxes every other breaker on each side alternates from L1 to L2.
If so this in itself can cause one array to be on the wrong charge controller if we don't pay attention because what you will do is have combined PV Inputs to the Classics and already have a common battery connection. Makes it hard for the Classics to Independently track their own MPP as one makes an adjustment and the other sees a change and it Tries to correct as well.
When you take a picture, put a wrap of blue electrical tape on all the wires on ARRAY#1 and red electrical tape on all wires on ARRAY#2
Once I get a picture and ask a few more questions I will tell you an easy way to measure the Isc of each of the PV strings one at a time and you can see if they are working. This will eliminate upstream problems.
Quote from: mobywile on February 04, 2015, 08:29:45 PM
I love this! I have 3, 24v, 180w panels in series - 5A output each. The "string" is wired to the input side of a 20A Square D QO breaker, which I use as a disconnect ...
OK, couple of things are difficult to understand. So is it on the newest Classic Lite that you have this/these strings of three of those newish 180 Watt PVs? The string of three of these PV SHOULD have a string Vmp of about 108 V. Would expect that with no load, this string configuration would have a Voc of over 140 V, especially with your coolish temperatures.
Another confusion on my part is that you have mentioned that the newest Lite has 5 PVs on it, so the only possible working configuration is all five in parallel ... am confused.
And completely agree that you really should upgrade to Real Combiners, with one MNEPV circuit breaker for each and every string of PVs ... have been biting my tongue, resisting saying that. This ability to reliably disconnect every string, and then methodically turn on each string individually should help much in diagnosis.
FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
Quote from: mobywile on February 05, 2015, 01:49:31 PM
This is almost funny. I was checking voltage on the at the array in buses, which are "completely separated. Almost. I have an old Cruising Equipment Amp Hour + which I have used forever. Ever wire one of those things? Very messy. Anyhow, the signal wire that reads array input is connected to both of them. It was giving me the same voltage reading on both buses. Disconnected it and it went away.
I looked up the wiring for what I think is your Cruising brand meter, is this it?
Red = +12v (jumped to blue)
Blue = +12v from battery #1 (2 amp fuse)
Violet = +12v from battery #2 (2 amp fuse)
black = ground at small screw on bottom of shunt
Orange = Battery #1 twisted pair to top of shunt
Green = Battery #1 twisted pair to bottom of shunt
Yellow = Battery #2 twisted pair to top of shunt
Brown = Battery #2 twisted pair tp bottom of shunt
White = +12 volt for back lighting insturment
The shunt breaks the ground from both batteries with the ground lead from each battery going to the top of each section of the shunt (the split part of the shunt) and the bottom of the shunt (combined section of the shunt) going to the negative bus.
How is it you have it connected to the monitor the "PV current" ??? It looks to be a battery current meter...???
Mobywile,
When there is no PV input connection to a classic the input terminals will always show a voltage. This is normal, the classic is designed to do this. It's usually somewhat below the battery voltage.
Can I suggest you disconnect the PV input cables from the suspicious classic then see if you see a voltage there?
If this is lower than what you measure now then the array is probably connected ok.
With two classics charging the same battery bank they are never equally balanced when it comes to providing the charge current.
I have often seen this where one classic does the charging in absorb and float and nothing comes from the other. In bulkmppt they should both be pushing all that can into the bank.
Followme is simply forcing both classics into the same charge state. It does not mean both will provide equal or similar charge current or a ratio depending on available PV current for each classic
Anyway just some thoughts..
Dgd
Quote from: WizBandit on February 07, 2015, 02:08:04 PM
And I assume by your description you are using the LINE-1 lug as an output and LINE-2 lug as an output?
and I assume you know in those breaker boxes every other breaker on each side alternates from L1 to L2.
If so this in itself can cause one array to be on the wrong charge controller if we don't pay attention because what you will do is have combined PV Inputs to the Classics and already have a common battery connection. Makes it hard for the Classics to Independently track their own MPP as one makes an adjustment and the other sees a change and it Tries to correct as well.
A mobywile quote from Post #7, " I have 3 panels wired in a series string into a Square D QO 2-slot, 4-circuit breaker panel. So, 2 strings on 3 racks on one ground mount. Each string has a 20A QO breaker as a disconnect ..."
WhizBandit, this is a very good observation, and with breakers installed (especially decades ago), this alternation is covered, IIRC.
This might well be much or all of the problem.
PWM CCs can tolerate multiple controllers on the same PV array, I believe.
YES !! Photos of the existing Combiners would be very helpful.
AND, as WhizBandit stated above, moby, you really DO need to update the Combiners, with individual circuit breakers for each and every string, for safety, if for no other reason (this includes any "strings" of one PV).
And the possible arching that Whiz referred to was that possibly caused when using the under V rated QO breakers as switches, not when tripping - I believe.
Was resisting getting on my tired old rant about the QO breakers being rated for 48.00 V MAXIMUM, not nominal. PV strings are current limited, but, still, QO breakers as PV breakers with Vocs above 48 V could be a problem. And moby has invested a considerable amount in the update of his PV system. Modern Combiners are only a small, additional expense. But well worth it for safety and diagnostic convenience. Opinions, guesses, Vic
Wow, what a day! I lost the DSL repeater tower earlier today. Seems to be fixed now...
So, I did up this nice post complete with pictures and all and it wouldn't go. Too big. I have other issues with my picture management files right now.
SO, apologies to all who saw that I misstated my string wiring. They are in PARALLEL, not series. I may never live this down.
Sorry to send everyone down the wrong road.
The working Lite has 2 strings of 3 panels plus a string of 2 panels. The non-working Lite is fed by 2 strings of 3 panels. I hope this clears some ground.
Now, let me see. Wizbandit, I have one of the original Amp Hour+2 units. Hand-lettered serial number. It monitors source and battery. Has a little trouble with the new system, but it gives me some useful info. I removed the parallel wiring that sensed the input voltages because they were a possible bridge between Lites. No connection now.
You were correct that I am using a common neutral in my 2-breaker disconnect panel. L1 and L2 are used for the 2 strings through that panel. The panels are dedicated to one controller - no split signals.
Now, Halfcrazy. MNGP observation of inputs: Lite1)Volts in 30.2, Battery voltage 13.6, Amps in 94.5; Lite 2)Volts in 40.0, Battery voltage 13.4, Amps in 0.0. These were recorded as fast as I could change addresses on the MNGP.
Tom, I completely agree. These are the types of bugs that I usually can find. Other, less seasoned, sparkies find me when they want a fresh idea. Not workin' this time, yet.
Vic. I led you astray. I have all these changes coming; the combiners, DC breakers ( I have a box full of DINrail stuff just waiting for a cause), 24v system upgrade, and new SW inverters. Just imagine if I did all that and had to find this. I would be dying... I have the steep learning curve right now.
I have the Local App installed, mostly, and am interested in how it will help me out with this situation. I need to figure out how to get it online and also need to run another cable for the "good" Lite.
I will begin shrinking my photo files later so I can share.
As always I am humbled by your generosity...
Dgd. When the arrays were disconnected from the Lite, the voltage in was 8.1.
Ahhhhh! Confusion is my niddle mame.
In the PV world we use "string" to mean a set of PV modules consisting of 2 or more in series.
The POS & NEG wiring from this "string" is called a "PV Source Circuit".
Many PV source circuits are sent to a circuit breaker or fuse in a "Combiner Box" which electrically "combines" the outputs of many circuits together into one bigger sized wire via a buss & big LUG. ALL PV modules in combined strings must have similar electrical characteristics.
When we parallel modules we say "3 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #1"
and "2 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #2"
These as well need to have similar electrical characteristics.
It is recommended each module in a parallel setup be combined in a combiner box with its own Fuse or Breaker and not just "wire-nutted" together or landed on a terminal block. This makes maintenance a whole lot easier but abit more expensive, which is why most chose series strings.
Class is over, the bell has rang, put down your pencils, and go wire up some PV
Thanks Whizbandit. Yep, I used wire nuts. But, for argument's sake, can we assume everything is wrong, but OK? It worked for 2 years without problems, almost. It worked with the PWMs for decades. It wakes up when it should, does the "Follow Me" to perfection, turns off and goes to "Resting 5" correctly. Sorry, WHY won't it charge??
I really am in the process of bringing this stuff up to date, but I need this to work before I buy all the rest of the components to upgrade everything. And, horror of horrors, is it possible that I do have a component failure in the unit somewhere? Just askin'...
And, I do appreciate the nomenclature lesson. You'll love this. Through a number of twists of business and fate, I ended up spending my last 10 years at The Home Depot. I was "the guy" in the electrical department. Everything from SE to light sockets, I had to make it work - good at, too. But, the biggest challenge was hearing what the other guy was saying and deciding what he/she needed from me.
Thanks for listening...
Mobywile,
It's almost impossible to understand what the real problem is because there is so many sidebar issues being discussed and little real facts emerging.
So just a few questions and ideas/tests
Remove the follow me and disable it to remove that being a factor
If you power off the working classic lite does the other one start charging the bank?
If not then have you power cycled it and see if it then starts?
What are the charge settings? Absorb and float?
I assume you are not grid connected with an inverter that also charges the bank?
They are both in solar charge mode, I assume?
Using just the non working lite have you tried changing it to solar legacy P&O mode, if not try it and what happens?
Have tried swapping the two Lites to use the PV array that powers the good lite then the good lite on the bad array?
Dgd
Moby in the example above where you used the MNGP to see both. What stage are they in? Bulk MPPT ot Float or?
Quote from: mobywile on February 07, 2015, 08:09:52 PM
Sorry to send everyone down the wrong road.
The working Lite has 2 strings of 3 panels plus a string of 2 panels. The non-working Lite is fed by 2 strings of 3 panels. I hope this clears some ground.
Are you saying that there are 8 panels hooked up to the working Lite? Are these identical panels? If so, that is a very problematic configuration. If the panels are all the same, you must have the same string length in each of the strings.
--vtMaps
Thanks everyone. I may lose my internet again today so I'll try to be prompt here.
Correct, dgd. Too much on the side. I am convinced I do not have a wiring issue that is affecting this. I will need to upgrade soon, but not now. I have swapped the array inputs and there was no change. Yesterday I removed the comm wires and disabled "Follow Me". Same result. I have power-cycled the bugger - no change. All the blinky lights do as they should and the fans test correctly.
Settings: Eq. 14.7V, Absorb 14.2V, Float 13.6V. Changed to Legacy P&O and no change. MNGP reads BulkMPPT.
Powering off the working Classic Lite does not encourage the other one. Getting juice into this thing is like trying to get in to Club 47 on a Saturday night!!
I just went down and cycled everything again and same result.
vtmaps. Prior to buying these units, I discussed the "beauty" of not having to have identical arrays/strings. I knew I would be wiring in this configuration because I will be transitioning to more panels and a 24v system later on. Now, the working Lite has 8 panels on it all identical Suntech STP180-24s. 3 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #1, same for source circuit #2, and 2 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #3. These are all combined and connected to, can you believe it, the working Lite. The non-working Lite has 3 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #1, and the same for source circuit #2, combined to power the now non-working Lite. The working Lite is humming right along here in high Rocky Mountain sunshine. Thanks for asking, though.
Right now, 10:15AM, the temps on the working Lite are: Remote 30.8, Batt. 17.4, FTEs 64.2, and PCB 57.1. All nice and cozy and running smoothly while charging at 1250 watts.
Halfcrazy. Both were in Bulk MPPT. I have checked the RFR many time and the result is always #5.
Is therr any info I can glean from my Local App? Can anyone else look at over the ether? I haven't set that up yet. A today chore if I can;t find any other tests or checks to do.
As always, thank you. Hope the repeater holds out today. New one going up tonight sometime.
Moby,
Ok, if you have swapped the working pv array to the non working Lite and you still get no power through it (with other Lite powered off)
then you seem to have proven there is a problem with that Lite.
In saying that I'm assuming you have the identical settings in it as the working Lite.
And you are 100% sure there is no wiring issues or other gotcha issues.
As a final test you could completely remove the Lite from all wiring and take it away from your power room (to garden table), wire a single battery to it and take just one panel away from an array, I mean totally away from all wiring and other panels and frame, lean it against the garden table roughly pointing to sun and then see if the Lite will charge this single battery with this single panel. Use new wire too and keep it all in short lengths. If the Lite is still not doing anything then...
So you should probably contact your dealer or where ever you purchased it from and get them to test/fix/replace it.
Midnite provide excellent product support so it should not take long to resolve this.
dgd
What I would suggest is to plug the MNGP into the Lite directly, Turn it on (battery and PV power) and watch he input voltage? Does it dive right down to battery when it goes to bulk or is it staying at voc?
OK, Halfcrazy, I powered down, turned off the "Follow Me", input V were at 9.2. When I powered back up, input V went to 42.7 immediately.
Dgd. I don't have a battery laying around at the moment. Guess I can take the one out of the truck, but I'll have to do that tomorrow. Blowing 50 out there at times. If you really think that's a good idea, I'll give it a go.
I am the "dealer" here. A very considerate distributor volunteered to reenstate me after the fire so I could get what I needed to restore my stuff. So, I'll get in touch with MN Customer Service tomorrow and see what I can do.
Thanks for everything. Internet is in and out all afternoon. I'll check the postings every hour if it's on.
Quote from: mobywile on February 08, 2015, 05:48:46 PM
OK, Halfcrazy, I powered down, turned off the "Follow Me", input V were at 9.2. When I powered back up, input V went to 42.7 immediately.
Ok so there is good VOC but did it click the relay and go to bulk MPPT? If so what does the input voltage do. I would definitely give Roy and the crew a call Monday they can help solve this for sure
I didn't hear any click like I used to. The input voltage goes to 33v or so here late in the day. It did go to Bulk immediately...
I now have both of these on the local app, but I am lost with the MAC address, etc. I have e-mailed mymidnite with my inadequacies. Someone will get to me tomorrow, I'm sure. The data on this unit is drastic. Great charge one day and nothing the next. Can I send this info to anyone over the 'net? The temps are right where they should be, etc.
Gettin' any snow there?
Dry as a desert here...
Thanks a million. Moby
Thanks Halfcrazy. I talked with Roy today and the Lite is on its way to tech. Thanks for all the help and, if you want, I'll relay the results. I owe it to everyone who has spent the time and energy to help me out.
Meanwhile, I'm looking longingly at the Garage Sale MNPV3s.
Later...
Moby
Yes I feel getting it back to the doctor for a check up is a good idea.
Ryan
Update time. I returned the Lite to MN as directed. Thanks to all who facilitated this, including Ryan and Roy. I don't have the complete rundown yet, but the quick explanation is that the Main relay was not functioning. New board and returning as we speak. I should have it on the 23rd, late. More next week. Meanwhile, the remaining Lite has been operating as expected. Sure could use the bigger charging capability right now. 4 days of snow and cloudy weather coming up.
Moby
Got it back and installed. One day of sun and all is, mostly, well. I probably need to load the updated firmware? Maybe do the reset? Absolutely no docs with the return. No mention of the repair, except a note from Roy prior to receiving the unit. I'll be doing some looking around today, maybe - if it ever stops snowing!
Thanks to everyone.
Moby
Quote from: mobywile on February 26, 2015, 01:00:56 PM
... I probably need to load the updated firmware? Maybe do the reset? ... Thanks to everyone.
Moby
Moby, Good idea to Update the FW, and the VMM Reset after updating the FW is the correct thing to do. Good Luck, Vic
Hey Vic. Did the FW update and the VMM reset. Awesome results. Except.... My MAC and my ID remain the same for both Lites. Now, I didn't do an MMGP update. Is this the problem? The only place(s) that I have any difficulty is on the MyMidnite for my Android website. The Tablet has both Lites recorded and monitored. But, on the MNGP, the addresses are the same. Wierd, or just an old fart "situation"?
I am so happy that all the - almost - possibilities are on track! I have looked through a lot of the Forum Posts and I am grateful for the people who seem to spend their precious time monitoring folks like me.
Moby
Quote from: mobywile on February 27, 2015, 08:42:17 PM
Hey Vic. Did the FW update and the VMM reset. Awesome results. Except.... My MAC and my ID remain the same for both Lites. Now, I didn't do an MMGP update. Is this the problem? The only place(s) that I have any difficulty is on the MyMidnite for my Android website. The Tablet has both Lites recorded and monitored. But, on the MNGP, the addresses are the same. Wierd, or just an old fart "situation"?
I am so happy that all the - almost - possibilities are on track! I have looked through a lot of the Forum Posts and I am grateful for the people who seem to spend their precious time monitoring folks like me.
Moby
Moby;
If by "MAC" you mean the device MAC address, it will never change, it should be a permanent value across any upgrades.
From Wikipedia:
Quote
A media access control address (MAC address) is a unique identifier assigned to network interfaces for communications on the physical network segment. MAC addresses are used as a network address for most IEEE 802 network technologies, including Ethernet and WiFi.
Just FYI
Tom
He's BACK... All has been pretty stable here at the casa. Now, The MAC address question. On my Local App, the "new" address appears on the rebuilt Lite. On my Remote MNGP, the addresses are still both the same, although they operate separately and FollowMe works fine. When I go to the MyMidnite site to register my "new" Lite, they do not recognize the MAC as a valid address. Consequently I cannot register it on there. The comment they give is that it takes a week or so for MN to update their list of MAC addresses somewhere, I do not have a clue. It has been long enough.
A couple of times I have tried to access my 2 Lites in the morning and the "Device Not Available" notice comes up on one or both of them. Yesterday, one of the Lites was not there altogether! Uninstalled the App, rebooted everything, and still one was missing. Went to the MNGP, and the "Enabled" was turned off. Am I missing something here? Before reinstalling the App, I checked all my cables and the modem, etc. All was connected and trying to do the job. After all the reinstall stuff, It has been working fine.
I happened to be in the Power Room late yesterday, an a yellow LED was on for a short time. I have no idea what that means. System was on Float, Vin was 34.5, BattV was 14.1, and charge was down around 25-30A. When I turned on the well pump and the BattV dropped, the light went out and all went fine.
Yes, I have updated my Firmware to all devices - twice.
Will this be an ongoing conundrum? My wife would like me to start a new discussion for spouses/partners who do NOT want to be stuck with a senile hubby (some day) and a system they cannot fathom. She has been a full partner in the care and feeding of our systems for 34 years and I sympathize. I did notice there was someone else who had asked for a "Classics For Dumbies(sic)" manual.
Guess I have too much time on my hands, here. Better go and bring in firewood...
Moby
... and thanks...
All is working great now. My batteries are much happier and so am I.
I am taking the advice of many of you and upgrading my combiner boxes and disconnects with MN boxes and breakers. Tearing out all my old stuff almost breaks my heart - we've been friends for so long... But, thanks to everyone for sticking with me and bringing me into the 21st century.