Tesla to sell home battery pack (http://offgridquest.com/news/tesla-motors-announces-a-new-home-batter)
It will be interesting to see what comes of this. It makes sense that Tesla, with their new battery factory in the works, would take advantage of another market in which to sell their batteries.
Could be a big opportunity for makers of charge contollers. :)
Quoteon Wednesday, Musk said that the design of the battery is complete, and production would begin in about six months
So, when does the beta testing begin?
MTdoc
I have caught 2 You-tubs on these tesla car battery's on fire , the seem to shoot out mortars of spark & flame.
Myself If I was to use these , I would wait a few years to see if they didn't burn down a house, then I would need to have a fire building away from the main buildings ..
Just search you-tubs & in Mexico that one lasted , much longer than the one in bollywood CA.
Even Boeing aircraft have had mishaps on the "Dream-Liner"
It sounds great that this might happen , but !!
I actually think the safety of the Tesla battery packs is pretty well proven. The couple of fires in Tesla vehicles occurred in extreme conditions - massive mechanical disruption of the pack - which will never happen in a home battery pack unless the home itself is destroyed already (earthquake,fire, etc). After all lead acid battery packs have their safety issues as well.
It will be interesting to get more details on this. There are several lithium ion chemistries. In the model S - I believe they use the nickel cobalt aluminum variety. The energy density for a home based battery obviously does not need to be as great as for an EV where weight is a prime concern. Will these home batteries be the same chemistry as their vehicles?
True , But I would still be cautious , FLA , yes I have seen some bad outcomes .
I have had a unprotected li-lon do a yellow smoke flare on a flashlight 18650 cell.
I do agree on the damage from the accidents , same as the Toyota that had it's battery stabbed from running over some steel on the I5 near Seattle . the car burnt to a crisp & it melted the road . I still see the road rash burn mark.
Im just skeptical on many new items that we the public are the testers /guinea-pigs at our cost .
VT
From his comments and the reporters , I would have to reason that they will use the same chemistry, what is good for the car is good for the home, maybe just not the best...
QuoteDuring an earnings call last year, Musk had talked about his plans to make a product that would be fitted into consumers’ homes, instead of their cars.
Quote“Some will be like the Model S pack: something flat, 5 inches off the wall, wall mounted, with a beautiful cover, an integrated bi-directional inverter, and plug and play.â€
Bling in other words?
QuoteThe Palo Alto, California-based automaker already produces residential energy-storage units through SolarCity Corp.,
QuoteTesla's long history of research and development has enabled a cost-effective, wall-mounted storage appliance that is small, powerful and covered by a long lasting full 10 year warranty.
The actual battery unit is about the size of a solar power inverter, and will be mounted on the wall in your garage or near your electrical panel.
QuoteA home energy storage system may help you save more money by drawing power from your battery instead of from the grid during higher rates peak hours. You can then recharge your battery during lower rate, off-peak hours.
So it sounds like it will be just like a car use, high discharge rate and then recharge, a PEAKER...
Quote, Nov. 20, 2014
Since early 2013, Walmart has tested 13 battery storage projects with solar installations across California to provide additional savings to Walmart by using stored electricity to lower peak demand charges. The next ten solar energy storage projects will each use a larger 200 kilowatt (400 kilowatt hour) battery,
So the current one is 100KwH? :-\
It raises all kinds of questions, doesn't it?
We all know you can't just slap a lithium battery pack onto a strict grid-tied PV system. At the very least you'd need a charge controller, BMS and new inverter or electronics to do an AC coupled solution.
I'm sure Tesla has all this sorted out. Are they partnering with someone to develop a whole "kit" for grid tie systems?
What will the voltages of the packs be?
Will they market a version for off-grid or grid tie with battery back-up systems that don't need a charge controller or new inverter? Compatible voltages?
I guess the dream is that Tesla with its "giga factory" will have the economy of scale to develop a "plug and play" type lithium pack with integrated BMS that is available in various voltages and capacities and all at a price competitive with lead acid on a usable kWh basis over its lifetime.
A 20 yr lifespan and 5000 cycles at an affordable price is all I want... ;D
Yup, affordable, reliable, me too....
All I could find other than above, was a lot of conjecture and vision thinking, a bit beyond vapour ware....
There is a pic of the inverter on Solar City's site and another reference to that pic that the battery (early version?) was about the size of an (Grid Tie?) Inverter... Noting on the SC site other than apply "here" for an installation, also that the Utilities were dragging their feet approving GT with batteries and SC was not going to 'sell' anymore battery packages until the utilities started approving the existing ones.
I can say there seems to be a push to work on jacking batteries into a pure grid tie system JUST for load shaving on the grid. Your lights will still go out when the utility fails though. This seems to be driven by the utility to help them ride through dips etc. That said I am sure as the future goes we will see Lithium in battery based systems more and more. Solar City has been installing Tesla batteries and Schneider inverters as an AC couple retrofit for a bunch of there grid tie customers so I suspect the testing is already done?
Did you hear anything about the battery size?
Quote from: CDN-VT on February 16, 2015, 11:41:18 PM
Im just skeptical on many new items that we the public are the testers /guinea-pigs at our cost .
VT
110% agreed!
The scariest are the drugs "our" FDA quickly pushes through to production rather than ensure public safety like they are supposed to.
With equipment it is probably
much cheaper to just swap out failed stuff compared to actually testing in house.
Greed seems to be winning these days.
End rant.
It would definitely be really nice if a decent set of battery choices existed, for sure
Just from the peanut gallery.
Tom
Well not to get to far off to the side :
These guys got a kickstarter campaign starting next week.
there's a youtube video : http://www.honeyflow.com/ Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_pj4cz2VJM
and foxnews coverage Tap honey like beer with revolutionary hive filter invention | Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/02/17/tap-honey-like-beer-with-revolutionary-hive-filter-invention/
Now if you know how honey is made & why , this seems to be a selling hoax to me.
Im not saying that the battery's / cells are , but till proven .
Isn't every few years theirs a small company who sells a power cube for an entire house , around April ..
@ Tom , I agree on the drug problem , witnessed doctors pushing many
VT
Well I get my NUCS and Queens from John Gates and know and respect him (40 sec. into video) ... I will not doubt that it can work, but... we'll see.
Ha - Honey flow - that's great! I'm sure it's legit... ::)
QuoteIm not saying that the battery's / cells are , but till proven .
You do realize Tesla's battery packs are already well proven. Right?
Tesla's a 25 Billion dollar company - just a tad above the Kickstarter crowdfunding level.
Of course their home battery product may not be successful but given Elon Musk's track record of building EVs and lauching rocket's I'd say the odds are it will be at least partially so.
After all batteries for a home RE system aren't exactly rocket science..
QuoteAfter all batteries for a home RE system aren't exactly rocket science..
No they aren't, but as we are all aware the use and maintenance is just about as complex ... ??? :'( :)
And from gleaning tidbits about using a battery based on the Tesla's battery design , a cool flat panel design it is probably a 123 knockoff, and would likely be used to 'dump' into the grid for covering peaks etc and less so for typical off grid use... it should work but what limitations might it have.
The low tech requirements of lead acid battery maintenance with nothing more needed than a hydrometer has it's advantages - but as you imply the vigilance needed to do this correctly and get a 10 year lifespan out of your batteries can be a challenge.
Although - I'm always in favor of lower tech solutions to problems when they exist, what has impressed me the last few years as I've become more familiar with lithium batteries through my ebike and more recently a Chevy Volt - is that with a fairly simple but robust BMS, the charge/discharge efficiency and ability to withstand multiple deep discharges without any significant loss in capacity is a real breakthrough.
There are Tesla's, Chevy Volts, and Nissan Leafs now with many years and thousands of cycles on them without any noticeable loss of usable capacity. The demands place on a EV battery pack are far greater than an off-grid home.
With the well designed, reliable and intelligent electronics that the EV makers have developed, these battery packs are about as idiot proof as anything. The 8 yr/100,000 mile warranties offered speak to the reliability.
Looking at what's on the web, it does look like Tesla is going to be marketing this to grid tie solar and has already been using such systems in Solar city. As Ryan pointed out it looks like they've partnered with Schneider in that case. (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage)
My hope though is that along with all this will come some "bare bones" plug and play type battery packs (with integrated bms) that can be used in existing off grid or grid tie with back up systems to replace aging lead acid banks. If they can get the pricing down to compete with lead acid on a kWh/lifespan basis and have compatible pack voltages then it will be a very attractive alternative IMHO.
Hey, I posted this on on Feb 12
http://midnitesolar.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2350.0 (http://midnitesolar.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2350.0)
I have an e-bike too. Thanks for the idea. Now not only can I tell my tree-hugger friends at work that I am drinking solar powered coffee but also ride a solar bike!
I'm thinking of purchasing a plugin hybrid as a place to put any excess solar to work. A drivable battery bank would be much more fun than a stationary one. Problem is that the all electric mileage (endurance) figures are disappointing and the those that do well such as the Tesla are a little too pricey.
Have a look at the Volt. If your daily driving distance is less than 30-40 miles you may use little or no gas. I've burned 8 gallons in 4,000 miles so far. You really get the best of both worlds - without the range anxiety of a pure EV. I never thought I'd own a Chevy - but the Volt is a great car.
My Volt has a 17kWh battery- with about 12 kWh accessible. Though I haven't done it yet - it is easy to hook a small (up to 2000W) 12V inverter to it.
Quote from: mtdoc on February 18, 2015, 01:10:44 AM
Ha - Honey flow - that's great! I'm sure it's legit... ::)
You do realize Tesla's battery packs are already well proven. Right?
Tesla's a 25 Billion dollar company - just a tad above the Kickstarter crowdfunding level.
Yes , I do .
The Honey post was a funny (in my eyes) as to the april fools joke on a new battery just invented etc.
Let's hope this Tesla home based battery works out , but for myself , Im sticking to old school till the bugs are all sorted .
Whats your Volts replacements battery worth ? I've seen the yotas price has dropped from the orignal 6 grand .
VT
Quote from: CDN-VT on February 19, 2015, 03:54:07 PM
Whats your Volts replacements battery worth ? I've seen the yotas price has dropped from the orignal 6 grand .
The truth is I don't think anyone knows. There's been wildly varying estimates of what the replacement would cost. Apparently one GM parts website lists it for something like $2500 but that seems way too low. I've seen unrealistic (likely politically motivated) guesses that have put it at $30K. Since I paid about that for my new 2014 Volt I know that's not right...
Given the 8 yr 100K mile warranty it will likely be a while before there's any kind of realistic market to sort out the true price.
Quote from: CDN-VT on February 18, 2015, 12:35:57 AM
Well not to get to far off to the side :
These guys got a kickstarter campaign starting next week.
there's a youtube video : http://www.honeyflow.com/ Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_pj4cz2VJM
and foxnews coverage Tap honey like beer with revolutionary hive filter invention | Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/02/17/tap-honey-like-beer-with-revolutionary-hive-filter-invention/
Now if you how honey is made & why , this seems to be a selling hoax to me.
Well I was skeptical about this but then I saw this new video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbMV9qYIXqM) that shows how it works. I'm actually much less skeptical now. Seems like a well thought out and engineered idea. If it really does work -I"m sure it will not be long before it is widely adopted.
MTdoc, I too saw that new video and I was really impressed, so much that I (think I ) managed to purchase a 1/2 super kit. It was almost sold out in a few hours... by the time I got back to the home page screen they (the one I ordered) were gone gone! Just buzzing off the hive!... pardon the pun..
please let me know how that works for you guys .
This is somewhat like A solar myth .
YOU NEED to feed the bees over winter & it is the honey or your wallet honey !!
Some get 10% out of a hive MAX , suck all the honey out & the hive dies from starvation ..
Remember Gentlemen , if its too good , it's a fool & his money . As we all have learn't with this venture also .
Good marketing , we get 20-40 plus hives set on the farm & im just told whats the about info , Not really involved.
But we do purchase the honey thats extracted.
VT
Edit , I can't spell worth my school taxes
OK a little BK (beekeeping) info. Up here we leave a hive with ~ 80 - 100 # of honey for the winter and also supplement in the fall with medication for aa couple of aliments that can take down a hive slowly over winter. The most I ever got was 500# per hive with a lot of management! I avg ~ 150 - 20# per year per hive. some years I have no die off and others 100
5 , mostly dependent on a spring (M or A) blast of Siberian cold air... they cant survive a +5 to -20C temp change overnight...
So a good BK does not rob his hive, though in the old days the commercial guys would just kill off the hives and take everything...
hth
hth's
Well yes it has WB
The gent who brings in the hives only give us little bits of info & ask's when the spraying will happen so he either moves the hives out or ??
It was at a local show he had a hive with them feeding on (sugar ?) and said that the hive had not produced that year ..
So seeing that Hive & the way it works , you think that is a real possible tool?? and the honey will just flow out ?
One size can't fit all Im assuming & they are only in collecting funds right now , Here's a copy of their patent application. Basically, the cells of the comb are broken up in to vertical strips so that they can be moved up and down relative to each other and grind the honey cells.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20140370781.pdf
Seeing the date on their patent application and the letters from users ? or they let the secret out before the patent application was applied for make's me wonder also.
Another Gent who had a patent before saying much : http://youtu.be/0nuDcYcrbTU?t=49s
Lets hope it's not a scam then , SO WB did you buy one or put money forward hoping to receive one .
VT
Add a good link on Bees : http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-0135/ANR-0135.pdf
No Birds as of yet ;) It's a ggod read of info , JFI vt
Quotedid you buy one or put money forward hoping to receive one
Time will tell, waiting for the mail, till then lots of solar work, etc to do...
back on topic.
Just read this on an RSS feed:
QuoteTesla Motors also plans to generate its own electricity using solar panels to power its $5 billion Nevada Gigafactory, which the automaker expects to complete in 2017.
so the batteries are a ways away time wise , for us to buy...
Wow the Flow hive seems like a great idea? As long as you leave the appropriate amount of honey in there to over winter it seems like it should work just fine? The wife has wanted bees for ever maybe I better throw some money into the crowd funding
Ryan, send me an email about the flow hive, I can advise a bit about some of the periferals oyu will need, etc
Ur, put me down for 10 of those panels thanks!
The PowerWalls are interesting, useful to Tesla, but basically useless to anyone off grid right now.
At least the first version of them has quite high voltage requirements - 350-450vdc. They're designed to hang on the solar DC rails coming to a high voltage grid tied inverter. They don't behave like a typical battery either - you need an inverter that speaks either Modbus or Canbus to command them to charge or discharge. No "volts & amps" interface like you find with a typical battery pack.
There are one or two inverters on the market that are compatible with it - not that it really matters, because you can't actually get a PowerWall if you want one, unless you reserved one early.
My view on them is that they're a perfect device for people who want to write a large check to have a Tesla PowerWall on the wall of their garage, but they're of marginal use, at best, for anyone off grid, because they run at absurd voltages and you can't talk to them usefully.
There are 2 versions of the powerwall one for grid tie and the other for stand alone. They are already on sale in Australia as Tesla see's use as an early and enthusiastic adopter of solar power.
No longer. They dropped the standby one.
https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
I know a few units have been installed, but can you actually get one installed in a reasonable time period if you order one today?
I am not sure on the time frames to get one, there quite few other suppliers here in Australia as well.
Also I know the local power distributor is trialling Tesla equipment in suburban sub stations, we have some areas here where excess solar power being generated in areas. We have one of the highest uptake rates of grid tie solar here in our part of Australia.
You have not been to my place Bio! ;)
I am getting over run with solar panels and running out of roofspace! :D
Qld's sun is producing all I need most days, on and off grid.
We are having our 2nd week out of 3 with not much sun and lots of dark clouds. Had a few days where I have been getting less than 10% solar than a sunny day. If we where 50 KM inland it would be quite different.
I am inland from Bundaberg in Qld. So we have more sunshine than we need.
Painfully so in summer.
Swap you for some rain and clouds! ;D
Like most farmers it is never enough or too much isn't it.