Just back from an extended stay at the cabin.. I have been using the L App to monitor the charge cycles and 4 days ago I noticed that the Watts was doing the expected up/ down as per the graph in the old MX60 manual page 47 ...
THEN I noticed that the BULK phase was ending ~ 11;00 and then , 5 minutes later the L.App showed I had entered FLOAT...??? I saw this each day after that, 4 times...
Min bulk is set at 2hrs 30 minutes
EA is set to 8 A, Battery is 900Ah AGM
Any hints to figure this out
Could it have dropped to the 8 amps set in end amps?
Hi Ryan, I'll have to sleuth that out on Friday when we are back there. Still getting used to the WBjr numbers...
The CC was putting out > 12A and the inverter is on constantly drawing +- 2 to 3 amps for standby, modem and wifi router and Bridge with switch...
FYI the 2 arrays are 90 degrees apart,
one gets full sun 10:00 to 14:00 and
then the second is in full sun to Sundown from 14:00 to ~ 18:15.
So I get 2 blasts of max output, 1 from each set of 4 s panels
Hi Ryan, well there I was al set up yo monitor the Local App and see just what I could to explain the short absorb... Clouds and rain for 3 days, so never got out of BULK, then day 4 we managed a morning blast before totally clouding over late afternoon but I did not see the short transition to FLOAT as it never got there but I did get 4 hrs of ABSORB...???
One thing I did do after 2 days of no sun , because of the clouds etc, was to throw my transfer switch and add another 4S array to the input so I was getting output from 8 panels while the sun was out ~1120W, SoC was down to ~ 87% and came up to ~ 95%, this might be why it Absorbed rather than Floating..
Reset system to normal config when we left.
Will watch again next week.
Keep me posted
Humpfff... ??? :-\
Well I watched intently for the last 2 days to see if I could get the fast jump to Float occur, but no luck. I got upwards of 3 hr of Absorb day 1 and into Absorb today before I had to leave.
I did wonder if it had to do with a shallow discharge (battery at 100% SoC daily), after the midnight reset, of about 6 % to 94%Soc
I did find that the Absorb Timer was NOT at 4 hours but a few seconds less than that and it decreased as the BULK charging progressed.. same finding today as well...
Is there a reason for this slow reduction ?
WB
if you had the LA running which it appears you may have you can look at the export data around 11:00am and see what the WBjr amps was at. That will tell you if it near the End Amps setting. You should see exactly when it went to float as the Charge Stage number should change from number 3 Absorb to number 5 Float. My WBjr amps reading is noisy and jumps around about 0.5 to almost 1.0 amp and is not a steady reading. I known it is suppose to go below the End Amps for a given period of time but you have to look at your values. The data should still be there for that day but you do have to be connected to the Classic so when you go back select the day in question and check all the data to plot and export it for review.
On your other question, are you saying the Absorb time is counting down while the Classic is in Bulk. If that is true I don't think that should be happening. It should only count down when the battery voltage is a the Absorb set point voltage. Anytime it drops below Absorb due to lack of sun it should stop counting sown until it reaches the Absorb set point voltage again.
Are your two Classics in FollowMe mode?
Hi John, in reverse order,
No, the 2 Classics are independent, on separate banks.
Yes, it is counting down, but not in real time, I made some notes that I have to dig up, more later..
Yes, I do have the 'download'ed data, just no time to parse it yet. Thanks for the tip , I will look for that pattern of being 'close to the EA' value...
Well here we are again on another cloudy day, with a little direct sun so slow charging.
Started at 92% SoC, now up to 96% and still in BULK \ Mppt...
and the Status/Info page shows (remaining?) ABSORB time at 3:45:00 ???
Getting 200 +-W ~~26.5V, 5 A from the Classic
ADD: 20:53 now the clock is down to 3:26:32......
and there was no possibility to get to ABSORB or Float after the first part of this post...??f
Ryan, I now have my 2 classics on MyMidnite. today I note that according to the LA I got 42 minutes in float on #647 at about 12:16 I saw a spike go into Absorb, but it was downhill all afternoon except for a smaller spike...???
hth
Eric
can you email me the log in info for your My Midnite act so i can look at it?
Based on Ryan's look at the data in MM I dropped the EA to 4.0 and will try 0.0 if it doe not get more Absorb time.
Westbranch..
Is your load staying constant? I've seen it jump to float if it was within a couple of amps of the end amp setting and a load like the water pump cycled and drop the absorb voltage and the current enough to meet the end amps. Slight drop and not enough sun to keep the voltage at the full absorb voltage for a minute and the Classic stays in Absorb and then goes to float because it meets end amps. Not sure how far the voltage has to drop before it falls back to Bulk. I've only seen this in less than max light and in my case it was close to meeting end amps anyway.
In the other case when I am running loads before it goes into float i have to set a higher end amps or it will not meet the end amps before the Absorb timer reaches zero. I've got my Absorb timer set to 4:30 hrs.
In my case End Amps seem to work best with bright sun light and light constant loads.
Hi John, the shift through absorb is ~1/2 hr and during full sun starting at ~11:45 as that is when the shadows drop off and getting ~5 -700W..
today we dropped the EA and the LA says it is in float with .1 Kwh 40A and under the absorb voltage
Quote from: Westbranch on August 17, 2015, 02:46:37 PM
Hi John, the shift through absorb is ~1/2 hr and during full sun starting at ~11:45 as that is when the shadows drop off and getting ~5 -700W..
today we dropped the EA and the LA says it is in float with .1 Kwh 40A and under the absorb voltage
Something doesn't seem right. So you are only see 1/2hr in absorb before it goes to Float? Do you know what the WBjr amps is at doing this time. It's on the main status page of the LA.(System something). I have no clue, hopefully Ryan can help you out.
That LA Kwh is the accumulative for the day, I'll see 0.3Kwh with all loads off and on a skip day when it just goes to Float( no Absorb), only thing on my batteries is the Classic when I'm gone. 840AH Flooded cells @12V,. So that is about as shallow of a SOC as you can get. Seeing ~ 13.0 hrs of Float time. Of course that is with CA sun and no shadows on panels all day.
Is that Absorb timer still counting down in Bulk?
Is that Absorb timer still counting down in Bulk?
don't know as I have been gyprocking in my 'free' time here at the lake...
It was almost as though the WB jr is working in reverse with the changed settings.
Our bank is just about the same as yours ~900 Ah cap. and same when we are away, it is fully charged... about a 8 - 10% DoD now we have a fridge 24/7 for the summer.... I am thinking it is like that very long charge yesterday did something to wake up our batteries deepest inner power reserves and it is like it did NOT DISCHARGE at all last night...???? :o ??? :-[ I've run out of emoticons...
trying to post a copy of today's MM graph...
what is your email?
well its almost night time here and the battery that suffered 6 hr 55 min " Float charge" all day is now down to 24.3 V. I am leaving the Net as well as the fridge on to night to see where we start tomorrow morning...
sweet dreams .....
well we are back at the cabin ;D...
Got here yesterday pm and caught the last hr of blazing sun!!! Classic still in Absorb due to morning fog and some scattered clouds... So I lowered the EA on Cl #647 setting it to 2.0 A and 'we shall see what happens tomorrow'!
Full sun forecast for next 2 days...
Well we had full sun when at 13:36 the output current dropped to zero!
So I went into the LApp and set the EA to zero and Forced Absorb to start again! So far SO good.
You can see the effect..... Current went higher than it had been and Voltage continued to increase towards the temp adjusted targets. I almost got to the max V set also....
well we are back at the cabin ;D...
Got here yesterday pm and caught the last hr of blazing sun!!! Classic still in Absorb due to morning fog and some scattered clouds... So I lowered the EA on Cl #647 setting it to 2.0 A and 'we shall see what happens tomorrow'!
Full sun forecast for next 2 days...
Well we had full sun when at 13:36 the output current dropped to zero!
So I went into the LApp and set the EA to zero and Forced Absorb to start again! So far SO good.
You can see the effect..... Current went higher than
Westbranch..
Your second graph when the graph first drops to floats looks like the battery voltage stayed high. Did you readjust float set point during that time? The top graph shows the voltage dropping when it first when to float which would be correct. Not sure I understand the second graph voltage, although the voltage scale is difficult to read.
Too many CA fires near our lake and it is covered in a haze of smoke so we are staying home until it clears. First it was the 106 temps and now it the smoke.
Hi John ,no changes made other than setting EA to zero. Absorb is set to 4:00 hrs. It is the EA that I had trouble with all along , Ryan mentioned that if the Amps fell below the EA limit for whatever reason like cloud or fridge turning on, the EA rules !
so today is the first time with a 2A EA value and it dropped into Float with full sun and no drop in the AMPs according to the LApp.
I am waiting for Ryan to jump in with another suggestion. 1 change at a time.
Quote from: Westbranch on September 11, 2015, 11:59:11 PM
... Ryan mentioned that if the Amps fell below the EA limit for whatever reason like cloud or fridge turning on, the EA rules ! ...
EA rules, but ONLY when the Absorption voltage is being maintained. If a cloud reduces the PV power below that which is required to maintain Vabs, the CC reverts to Bulk MPPT, and EA should not any longer be used to end charge cycle.
At least, this is the way that the Classics (and OB MX-60s) behave, here.
Vic
Hi Vic, that was my understanding too, but what has been occurring, is a couple of trees have been blocking the sun, now that it is lower in the sky it's for ~ 1hr, so that float was entered, it did not return to bulk even when the amperage went back up. During the summer it worked just fine... Ryan has been emailing me for a while now.... I am suspecting there is something amiss inside that unit (647) :-\
I will also be doing a FW upgrade with VMM in a couple of days, after the next batch of clouds and rain pass thru...
Chain saw time soon too! :o
Quote from: Westbranch on September 12, 2015, 11:59:05 AM
Hi Vic, that was my understanding too, but what has been occurring, is a couple of trees have been blocking the sun, now that it is lower in the sky it's for ~ 1hr, so that float was entered, it did not return to bulk even when the amperage went back up. During the summer it worked just fine... Ryan has been emailing me for a while now.... I am suspecting there is something amiss inside that unit (647) :-\
OK, but it you had EA set to a non-zero value, and the Classic transitioned to Float, then, EA has done its job, and based on the EA value that was set, by definition, all battery charging that was deemed to be required, has been accomplished.
If you wish an additional charge cycle, ReBulk is the normal thing to use if you wish this to be automatic, or Force Bulk if you are around to manage charging commands.
Had thought that you were at 1849 Cl FW ... If so, this FW does have all of the EA stuff working well.
FWIW, Vic
I notice that the two controller have a difference of 1 volt for battery voltage. Do the Classics show this on volt difference?
Dosen't look like you are putting in much current for 900AH batteries. Maybe they are fully charged. What kind of SOC do they start the day at?
thanks for the probing questions, made me do some more thinking digging...
I sent several graphs and download files and he was unable to figure out what was happening at that time so one of the other techs suggested the FW update, after lowering the EA setting
Vic, yes FW is the 1839/49 flavour, was thinking of the Rev 2056 Aug 18, 2015. Believe it is stable now as no comments to the negative seen IIRC...
The issue I have is I want a 4 hr. Absorb, before Float, and that is why I started this thread .
John, yes the 2 banks are1 V apart.
ADD: I forgot to mention that my sig does not explain about the ability to transfer the 4592 PV output to 647 using a marine battery switch... ;)
Both banks suffered a bit last winter, though Cl 4592 suffered a bit less than 647, due to an operator error (did not count on getting snowed out so early) I am happy with the perceived SoC on 647 as it is doing full time duty for the summer and it drops ~ 8 - 10 % each day, and if I don't get the full Absorb the stated SoC is 100% and I can see it in the end of day voltage and early morning voltage, and the effect is cumulative...
4592 just sits in Float right now as I have an Epanel waiting to install and another inverter to buy...
Hope this helps explain where I am right now... onward and upward :)
ADD 2: filled in wording to answer Vic's comment that follows...
Quote from: Westbranch on September 12, 2015, 03:44:10 PM...
... Vic, yes FW is the 1839/49
The issue I have is I want a 4 hr. Absorb, before Float, and that is why I .
OK thanks wb ... But am not certain just what you are saying at the end of that sentence.
But, if EA is not set to zero, it will be the factor that ends Absorb, unless the Absorb time that is set is satisfied. This is an OR function.
If you always want a 4-hour Absorb, then, would think that you should set EA to zero.
If you run out of PV power before your setting of 4-hours is met, (and EA is zero), then the Classic should revert to Bulk MPPT, and do what it can, and so on ... guess I do not see the issue. This may be shown on the graphic data on the first page (?).
Just trying to explain the way my CCs operate, and cannot see the graphs just now. Have Fun, Vic
Vic is correct, to get a 4hr absorb no matter what End Amps MUST be disabled by setting it to 0. If End amps is set to a value and the battery is really full the classic will terminate absorb early based on end amps. It must be in absorb not bulk mppt though or it ignores end amps.
Basically End Amps was designed for battery banks that do not get drained much at all at night and the user does not want to spend unneeded time in absorb as it just boils off water and heats the battery up.
Ryan
Ryan and Vic are correct if you want to get 4hrs of Absorb set the End Amps to 0.
Of course you going to have to have good sun and full output from your PV to get to Float after Bulk, and 4 Hrs in Absorb as the days get shorter. Of course when it gets colder the PVs do better but the batteries need higher voltages so you need more out of the PV.
Isn't off grid solar fun? 8)
this is really wierd... yesterday I turned on the charger while I was using the sander and genny.
This morning after waking to a 24.4V battery look at the bottom graph and the values...
and I have tried a force absorb and it is inputting 0.0 A
things are getting a bit weird, look at the bottom graph and the values\???<
I had the charger on yesterday to boost the bank < 24.5 last night at sundown NS , 24.4 v this morning....
sorry double post ....disregard the graph in prev post...could not delete it...??
Quote from: Westbranch on September 13, 2015, 05:48:18 PM
this is really wierd... yesterday I turned on the charger while I was using the sander and genny.
This morning after waking to a 24.4V battery look at the bottom graph and the values...
and I have tried a force absorb and it is inputting 0.0 A
Hi wb,
I do not use the LA. Perhaps it has a Force Absorb. via the MNGP, Classics do not have a Force Absorb available, just Force Bulk.
In the past, there used to be a bit of a bug in the Cl FW, where, if one was using EA in the Classic (ie, it had a non-zero setting for EA), if one Forced Bulk, if the Classic's output current was below the EA setting, it would appear to ignore the Force Bulk, and remain in its pervious state.
One would need to either set EA to 0.0 and Force Bulk, or apply a load on the batteries, that exceeded the EA setting, and then, Force Bulk.
This may not be the weirdness that you describe ...
The date in the lower graph of the last post appears to lack any data for the last several days, so it is not obvious to me, what you are noting.
FWIW. Vic
Hi Vic, the info I was referring to is in the second graph... If you use windows picture viewer, and click on the image, you can then expand it and , should, be able to pick up the issue, the overnight V was down to 24.4v. the amps in for the first couple of hours was <2.3 and the V was slowly climbing to 26.0, then the little upswing to 28.0 , corresponding drop in Amps to Zero and the Float timer kicks in...
All the while EA set to zero...??? the data after that defies explanation as the Volts exceeded all set values for, max V and amps
I then did a power down twice just to be sure Tonight I will hopefully install the newest FW etc
Quote from: Westbranch on September 13, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
Hi Vic, the info I was referring to is in the second graph... If you use windows picture viewer, and click on the image, you can then expand it and , should, be able to pick up the issue, the overnight V was down to 24.4v. the amps in for the first couple of hours was <2.3 and the V was slowly climbing to 26.0, then the little upswing to 28.0 , corresponding drop in Amps to Zero and the Float timer kicks in...
All the while EA set to zero...??? the data after that defies explanation as the Volts exceeded all set values for, max V and amps
I then did a power down twice just to be sure Tonight I will hopefully install the newest FW etc
wb, Yep, know that you were referring to the second graph, but cannot see the detail, just the thumbnail at the bottom ...
See that the Classic is in float, after, apparently delivering only 0.1kwh energy, and so on.
You do know that AGM batteries that are fully-charged have an unusual and unpredictable voltage, particularly when MPPT CCs Sweep, and their terminal voltage often exceeds any Absorb voltage setting, and any Limit that has been set.
Guess that you may be saying that you do not know the reason that this Classic is in Float, with little enerty delivered to the batteries, when the batteries appeared to have been discharged a bit on the previous night, maybe ...
I can add nothing at this point, just never ever have tried to view LA data from other's systems.
Good Luck, sometimes, a lot of data, adds a bit of noise in one's life, IMO. Good Luck, Vic
Vic said Guess that you may be saying that you do not know the reason that this Classic is in Float, with little enerty delivered to the batteries, when the batteries appeared to have been discharged a bit on the previous night, maybe ...
Yes that is what I saw and started this voyage... then everything started to go wonky...????
I have tried several times this cloudy morning to update the FW but I am going to delete/reinstall the install of the FW APP if I can get my permission back again.. ????? someone is playing 'permission' games somehow
To view the attachments full size, you need to click on the little paper clip or the file name and it will expand... hth
JOHN, VIC :
Any hints as to how to get the usb Driver installed, got the message and it said install failed? Went looking for the INF file and it seems to be missing or is it the "OLD" labeled file... ps W7
Quote from: Westbranch on September 14, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
To view the attachments full size, you need to click on the little paper clip or the file name and it will expand... hth
JOHN, VIC :
Any hints as to how to get the usb Driver installed, got the message and it said install failed? Went looking for the INF file and it seems to be missing or is it the "OLD" labeled file... ps W7
WB
Even viewing that MYMidnite graph full size does help see the voltages clearly as the scale is just too course to really see the shifts that are occurring. That's why I much prefer the 2 sec data from the Local App.
As for the driver. Go to the C:\MidniteSolar folder and run the uninstall.exe from there. And then reinstall the firmware program. Refer to the WIN 7 firmware instructions STEP13 & 14 Classic USB has to be connected to computer USB. It's normal to see the failed at step 14 then follow the instructions to go to Device Manage and update driver - In step 21 you will point it to C:\MidniteSolar and it will find the driver
Quote from: Westbranch on September 14, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
To view the attachments full size, you need to click on the little paper clip or the file name and it will expand... hth
Hi wb,
YES, I do know how to open the mm file, it is just that the "data" is so small. Some days previous to 9/13 are reasonably readable, but the only data for the date-in-question is in the SMALL rectangle at the lower right, and, while giving a rough general idea, not really readable.
Good luck on the FW Update. Am still on 1849, and probably will remain with it for some time, as this is a busy time of year, and really like to watch CCs for some days after a FW Update, at remote sites.
FWIW, Vic
Sorry Vic, I got it, you are talking about the 2 week overview, and I am referring to the 1 or 2 day graph... ::)
yes that overview is pretty rough
John I know I have seen those instructions at a point some time ago but the "documentation section is a mess IMHO and one can not even get a search result for "FIRMWARE"...???
SUCCESS!!! 8) ;D ;) Well after lunch, after I sorted out the USB driver issue, I was bouncing between slowly staining timbers and just letting the installer do its thing, MNGP first and then Rev. 2056. When it was all done, wait for it ... the Classic took off like a rocket and gave off some of that smell of 'magic smoke' what the ??? Turned out to be a new Hi temps for FET and PCB and I guess it was burning off a couple of years of dust... :o :( first time FANS were on steady too...
I still believe, now more than ever, that there was/is? something wrong in the Classic BUT
now have hit an all time high for PV efficiency of 77.41%... see the graph... 1296W from 1680W of PV!
The precipitous drop was from a rain storm that moved in... :-[
If this continues Rev. 2056 is a winner in my books!!!
thanks for the help guys,
Quote from: Westbranch on September 14, 2015, 09:25:28 PM
SUCCESS!!! 8) ;D ;) Well after lunch, after I sorted out the USB driver issue, I was bouncing between slowly staining timbers and just letting the installer do its thing, MNGP first and then Rev. 2056. When it was all done, wait for it ... the Classic took off like a rocket and gave off some of that smell of 'magic smoke' what the ??? Turned out to be a new Hi temps for FET and PCB and I guess it was burning off a couple of years of dust... :o :( first time FANS were on steady too...
I still believe, now more than ever, that there was/is? something wrong in the Classic BUT
now have hit an all time high for PV efficiency of 77.41%... see the graph... 1296W from 1680W of PV!
The precipitous drop was from a rain storm that moved in... :-[
If this continues Rev. 2056 is a winner in my books!!!
thanks for the help guys,
That looks much better. Still can't make out the voltage reading on the graph but the amp output looks much more like it.
I was going to attach the win7 instructions for future use but stupid iPad only wants to attach photos and will not allow a file to be selected. Will attach tomorrow from Win machine.
Are you using the new MyMidnite alpha or beta site ? If so there is a check box that says Full Scale that will expand the voltage graph so you can see it better. Also if you are using the new Mymidnite you can display System Amps and SOC .
What I did to find my ending amps was to set absorb for a very long time, then watch the SOC count up . When it got to 100% after that I watch for the point for system amps to level off a bit and that should be a good ending amps - and confirm that with specific gravity readings if you have flooded batteries.
Larry
Hi Larry, sorry AGMs so no SG reading option...
right now I am still under PV'd as we are still in 'construction' phase so my PV placement is not optimal and can be moved a bit, but we get HIGH winds here in winter so have to make sure we batten down all hatches and hope we ride out the storm...
That is why I am in need of a guaranteed long ABSORB...
Next Summer we should be able tto out in anchors for the Arrays...
I am using the original recipe of the MM,have you found any instability in the Alpha or Beta MM versions?
Larry
That graph is much better to read. You can tell where the battery voltage is and once you drop out of Absorb you should see it drop down to its float voltage.
I think the problem with the Beta MyMidnite is that it only worked with certain older firmware. And that the new MyMidnite was moving to a newer server and would not be ready for awhile. I may be wrong on all of this as Andrew and Ryan have not posted any recent updates on it.
The new Mymidnight is very stable and works fine for me - haven't had any issues with it. You need the network alpha or whatever that is called to make it work - and you need to go to a different ip address than the present mymidnite. That is all documented in another thread. I updated to the newest firmware a couple weeks ago but it didn't work with the new mymidnite so I went back to the older firmware. The new graphs and system amps and all are worth it to me.
Larry
If you look at that graph I posted of Mymidnite -- the only load I have on that system now is a refrigerator and you can see during the night when the compressor cycles on and off for it.
Larry
One full day in and it is a 'classic'.... see for your self, the precipitous drop at ~ 16:17 is when the sun went down... well, behind the mountain, for the day
Erik
It appears that the voltage stay the same even after the current drops off. Does it go to Absorb and then Float? I don't see the drop of in Voltage until the end. I must be miss reading the chart.
Quote from: Resthome on September 16, 2015, 12:59:30 AM
Erik
It appears that the voltage stay the same even after the current drops off.
Corrrect, it is up and down a few tenths of a volt
Quote from: Resthome on September 16, 2015, 12:59:30 AMDoes it go to Absorb and then Float?
It looks like it goes into FLOAT but the drop in Amps is due to only reflected light keeping the volts up... plus the WBjr is set to 0.0 for EA and the 4 hr ABSORB was not met at the time of the drop
Quote from: Resthome on September 16, 2015, 12:59:30 AMI don't see the drop of in Voltage until the end. I must be miss reading the chart.
I believe the V drop is the normal load of the fridge kicking in , and /or the drop in ambient reflected light as well. We left for town today at ~14:00 and it was still in BULK when I shut the CPU off ~1:30. It went into FLOAT at ~17:56 FOR ABOUT 20 MINUTES
the Happiness continues! :)
Here is the overnight data, at sunrise (08:00) the V sits at 25.2, down from its steady state of 25.4after yesterdays charge. It went into FLOAT at ~ 09:00! so it was a good day of charging yesterday...
Eric
Looking good !
I now see that your battery voltage drops off when it shows float time. The roll off of the Amps just seemed abrupt and still was able to hold the absorb voltage. Usually that final amp slope downward is more gradual and ends at a good end amp setting. But I am not all that familiar with AGMs which I think you have.
the 3000 ft ridge to the West cuts off the sun about 1630 these days. here is a partial pic of the 'hill'.... in the background
Spent a few days in town, weather bad so no charging showing on the MM display, but expected.... headed out this morning and foggy till after we arrived at ~11:30, sun came out and lo and behold the problem is back!
Very short BULK and the into ABSORB....
So I tried a VMM...4 times, .... no go with only battery connected, had to turn on PV switch for any action to take place....???? T his produced what appeared to be a VMM, as some data was transferred but not all, had to do some specific resets via LApp...
Any suggestions as to what might be wrong?? A dead MNGP battery? a bad install of FW Ver. 2045/2056? ???
QuoteVery short BULK and the into ABSORB....
What was the voltage of battery at that time ? I thought reaching a certain voltage started the absorb counter ?
I only have experience with smaller AGM batteries but they can show good voltages even though their capacity is poor. You may want to do a load test on them individually and see how they do - and then watch the voltage of them under charge. The batteries may just be going bad. They can show a good voltage and then when you put a load on them the voltage will dive.
How old are your batteries ?
Larry
Quote from: Westbranch on September 21, 2015, 08:51:23 PM
Spent a few days in town, weather bad so no charging showing on the MM display, but expected.... headed out this morning and foggy till after we arrived at ~11:30, sun came out and lo and behold the problem is back!
Very short BULK and the into ABSORB....
So I tried a VMM...4 times, .... no go with only battery connected, had to turn on PV switch for any action to take place....???? T his produced what appeared to be a VMM, as some data was transferred but not all, had to do some specific resets via LApp...
Any suggestions as to what might be wrong?? A dead MNGP battery? a bad install of FW Ver. 2045/2056? ???
So are you saying it went to Absorb to early? So it was in absorb with the battery voltage to low?
here is a graph from the day before I did the FWupdate to 2056 , on day 2, from left,...
on day2 I did the FW and you can see the benefit just that the morning BULK wasno very ample... day3 there was a great input, up to 40 Amps and then we had poor days, lots of cloud,rain etc... we were in town, monitored weather with Sat images, and returned yesterday, last day on graph. Fogged in and then it broke, sun out, scattered cloud, and watched CC got through Bulk, Absorb but it did not break out of Absorb as the 4 hr timer did not run out....
When I saw the pattern I did a couple of manual reboots to bulk and VMM's and saw there was over 500 watts available.
NOTE the couple of TINY blips on the Amperage line... but it hopped out of bulk pretty fast and into ABSORB with ~ 1 amp
Yesterdays Volts before bulk = 24.1
then ABS = ~29v
then down to 24.0 overnight and right now with ~40 W incoming 23.9 with fridge running...
using |MM data from graphs the low Voltage before charge cycle starts,
from left to right 24.7, 24.7,25.3, 24.9, 23.8 low, 24.3, 24.2, 24.1, 24.0 V
OK its 11:35~ and it just went into ABSORB .... CC put out about 24.4 V and 6.4 A ,
and then it went to ABS putting out 2.0 A and 29.2 V
I would recommend getting ahold of ROy in tech support (I am traveling a lot and makes it hard to follow here and did not want to leave you hanging)
roy@midnitesolar.com
thanks Ryan... :)
the puzzle continues... today it did NOT go into ABS, but stayed in BULK all day.
Day1, changed CC 647 out at ~12:00, starts in Abs ~ 13:53 to sundown, Batt resting @ 23.8V,
Day2 Batt @ 23.7V heads to ABS ~ 09:00, Float ~ 12:50, Batt resting at 23.6V,
Day 3 Batt at 23.4V max BULK at 23.9V, .6KWh Batt resting at ~23.6V...
At least today we added ~ the overnight amount of power, headed out tomorrow to start up the genny and BULK it for a few hours... Naturally the long range outlook is for SUN... for 5 days...
If you look close you can see the ~ 2 hr apart overnight drops in V ~ .1V
Eric
Can not view the graph for CC 647 in your Word doc
Quote from: Westbranch on September 24, 2015, 09:16:28 PM
the puzzle continues... today it did NOT go into ABS, but stayed in BULK all day.
Day1, changed CC 647 out at ~12:00, starts in Abs ~ 13:53 to sundown, Batt resting @ 23.8V,
Day2 Batt @ 23.7V heads to ABS ~ 09:00, Float ~ 12:50, Batt resting at 23.6V,
Day 3 Batt at 23.4V max BULK at 23.9V, .6KWh Batt resting at ~23.6V...
At least today we added ~ the overnight amount of power, headed out tomorrow to start up the genny and BULK it for a few hours... Naturally the long range outlook is for SUN... for 5 days...
If you look close you can see the ~ 2 hr apart overnight drops in V ~ .1V
I wouldn't be worried about Absorb being too short as IMO this battery bank is heading quickly to its life end.
Resting voltages after charging of 23.6 is nothing short of a disaster.
Get a genny fired up and a good long charge into the bank, 20+ or longer hours, until the resting voltage is up over 25 volts. You may need to repeat this bulk genny charge several times.
Just MHO..
dgd
I also just noticed your sig line..
CL150 #647 175A E-Panel WBjr , 2 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah AGM,
Assume thats two by strings of four 140W pvs?
Thats only 1120watts nameplate max of PV, way way too little to charge that 900Ah bank in your winter's less than optimal insolence conditions.
I would be getting that pushed up to more than twice the capacity of PVs, four strings of four (minimum) or more
likely five strings of four but preferably four strings of five PVs. The Classic 150 would easily cope with mpv of 90 volts and a 2.8Kw array of 140 watt pvs.
Thats exactly what I use, 4 strings of 5 140W pvs in series. Pic shows 2100w of 3 by 5 but since upped to 4 by 5 for 2800watts
No (over)heat issues either
dgd
Kind of hard to know from the graph what is going on without knowing what the load on the system is .
The last graph actually looks normal in some ways - it won't go out of bulk to absorb unless the battery voltage goes up - which on the graph it does not look like it does.
Larry
Quote from: Westbranch on September 24, 2015, 09:16:28 PM
the puzzle continues... today it did NOT go into ABS, but stayed in BULK all day.
Day1, changed CC 647 out at ~12:00, starts in Abs ~ 13:53 to sundown, Batt resting @ 23.8V,
Day2 Batt @ 23.7V heads to ABS ~ 09:00, Float ~ 12:50, Batt resting at 23.6V,
Day 3 Batt at 23.4V max BULK at 23.9V, .6KWh Batt resting at ~23.6V...
At least today we added ~ the overnight amount of power, headed out tomorrow to start up the genny and BULK it for a few hours... Naturally the long range outlook is for SUN... for 5 days...
If you look close you can see the ~ 2 hr apart overnight drops in V ~ .1V
Ok so the classic function looks normal. If there is no power from the sun to speak of the classic can not fill the battery. Or are you saying on Day 3 there was tons of sun and the classic did not use it?
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 25, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Quote from: Westbranch on September 24, 2015, 09:16:28 PM
the puzzle continues... today it did NOT go into ABS, but stayed in BULK all day.
Day1, changed CC 647 out at ~12:00, starts in Abs ~ 13:53 to sundown, Batt resting @ 23.8V,
Day2 Batt @ 23.7V heads to ABS ~ 09:00, Float ~ 12:50, Batt resting at 23.6V,
Day 3 Batt at 23.4V max BULK at 23.9V, .6KWh Batt resting at ~23.6V...
At least today we added ~ the overnight amount of power, headed out tomorrow to start up the genny and BULK it for a few hours... Naturally the long range outlook is for SUN... for 5 days...
If you look close you can see the ~ 2 hr apart overnight drops in V ~ .1V
Ok so the classic function looks normal. If there is no power from the sun to speak of the classic can not fill the battery. Or are you saying on Day 3 there was tons of sun and the classic did not use it?
Ryan the opposite is true, when I swapped out 647 there was a short period on the LApp of 600+ watts and under full sun I watched the Classic self regulate down to ABSORB V and minimal amps. I concur the Classic now seems to be operating normally, that is part of the puzzle...??
DGD et al Presently I have added all panels to this one battery so there are 1680W available under STC ...
Quote from: Resthome on September 25, 2015, 12:56:42 AM
Eric
Can not view the graph for CC 647 in your Word doc
John added a n earlier version of the doc see original post above
ADD:
DGD, There is a constant 3 to 5 amp load from the inverter for standby and to run the WiFi and Modem for the connection to MyMidnite monitoring ..PLUS the cyclical loads to run the fridge, so the steady at rest line shown is not truly "at rest" with no loads etc... just the closest I can get... :(
Quote from: Westbranch on September 25, 2015, 12:05:02 PM
Quote from: Resthome on September 25, 2015, 12:56:42 AM
Eric
Can not view the graph for CC 647 in your Word doc
John added a n earlier version of the doc see original post above
Did not realize you appear to have swapped out the #647 controller.
~ noon, Sept 23, on line ~14:00 ;) :D :o
Quote from: Westbranch on September 25, 2015, 05:13:33 PM
~ noon, Sept 23, on line ~14:00 ;) :D :o
So is the conclusion that 646 is not acting normal?
I agree it looks like the lightly loaded AGMs are reading low for a 24v system unless the frig is running. Will be interesting to see what voltage they are at afer you hit them with the generator.
Here is today's production.... 5.2kWH.... best ever, no gen set yet, highs of 50.1A, 27.4V .... daytime temp 10*C & cool breeze...
ADD::: high of 1371W captured by LApp
up from 23.4 this AM
sundown 25.0V will see what steady state gets to...
(//)
the Puzzle is why did the CC go into ABSORB, on day 1 (and 2), when it should have stayed in BULK for a lot longer???
Quote from: Westbranch on September 25, 2015, 08:28:32 PM
Here is today's production.... 5.2kWH.... best ever, no gen set yet, highs of 50.1A, 27.4V .... daytime temp 10*C & cool breeze...
up from 23.4 this AM
sundown 25.0V will see what steady state gets to...
(//)
the Puzzle is why did the CC go into ABSORB, on day 1 (and 2), when it should have stayed in BULK for a lot longer???
because the Absorb voltage set point is too low.
What are the Absorb and Float voltages?
That high of 27.4 looks a bit miserable too, was that during Bulkmppt?
Good news is the Classic is working perfectly.
Getting that third string of PVs connected certainly seem to have helped but I still think you need to get that 4th and 5th strings installed before your winter weather turns to custard.
That bank now disconnected gives you the opportunity to get the genny working on it and get its resting voltage way up over 25 volts.
dgd
Quote from: dgd on September 25, 2015, 09:36:07 PM
because the Absorb voltage set point is too low.
What are the Absorb and Float voltages?
That high of 27.4 looks a bit miserable too, was that during Bulkmppt?
Good news is the Classic is working perfectly.
Getting that third string of PVs connected certainly seem to have helped but I still think you need to get that 4th and 5th strings installed before your winter weather turns to custard.
That bank now disconnected gives you the opportunity to get the genny working on it and get its resting voltage way up over 25 volts.
dgd
DGD, in reverse order:
Well it's actually the other (backup) bank that is resting. The active one is the weaker of the 2, it was .2V/cell than the resting one at time of purchase... I want to use it till it drops, experiment, etc...
I concur about the next sets of arrays but there is more equipment work to happen where they have to go, first, then the array footings..
I am hoping there is just some small tweak needed to have both CC's running smoothly. The latest FW , on days like today, is smashing...
The Absorb is set at the max, 29.2V, highest V allowed is 29.5V EA is WBjr controlled and at 0.0
Float is 27.2 max 27.6
That 27.4 might have gone a bit higher but there were a few scattered clouds, I did not expect much higher for the first honest charge in over a week, 9 days actually... we will see tomorrow! more sun forecast
another good day... 4.0 kWh, 3 1/2 hrs charge @ 30A then solar, max 45.1A .
Holding steady state at 24.8, stated day at 23.8V,
shall see in the morning.
Another BULK by genny day
I am thinking the topic should have included " CC enter Absorb at < 1 Amp"
here is a screen shot including this morning. the first 3 days have about 3 hrs run time on the gen, ending about noon or so... that is when the PV kicks in 100%
Note on day 3 the early entry to Absorb just after gen shut down,..
Yesterday it entered Absorb just when the system should have started full output, but stopped at ~7 Amps.
Today it entered Absorb at 1 Amp input and drops to .3Amps... at ~ 25 Volts ?? then goes to the max Absorb voltage...29.3V
We won't be headed back out till Sunday when I will do a longer run on the gen set.
My question for boB or ? is
" What are the parameters that the Classic uses to enter Absorb" ...
well....I think I have zeroed in on the source of the puzzle....high resistance...
We are back at the cabin tonight to gen boost the battery and for the next 3 days.....
I went down to do some comparative V readings at the battery and inside the E panel.
Was going to do from the Classic but will do that tomorrow....
Whoa! Why are those RED wires BLACK???
The 2 Pos wires that attach to the small POS bussbar, one from the battery post of the main CB , the other from the PV CB, are both charred ~2 inches back from the bussbar.... That should create some resistance to current flow, eh ??
Checked the screw tightness and both hard tight, loosened them and re-tightened and found that the one for the PV now read ~2.0 V low. Loosened and tightened and the voltage jumped around ... stopped when it was within .2V of my DVMM of battery V.
Question now is WHY? when they were both tight?
Can you post a pic of the burnt wires and general area in epanel?
Dgd
it will have to wait till the morning ....now I have to suss out how to shrink 1.5 mb to kb to be sent in this bb's rules????
attempting post of pics, here's hoping
It worked, I used Image resizer powertoy for W7
ADD: I didthink about an IR temp tester last night when I saw the charring...hind sight is 20/20.. I wanted to do that last night but IR meter is 180 miles away... have to get one for here.
This morning the V readings are 2.3V apart. I have to shut it down and steal some wiring from my 2 nd Epanel, that's waiting to be installed...
I bought a toque screwdriver for just this reason. I believe Midnite provides the torque spec in their manuals. Not sure about the e-panel manuals as I am not using them. The spec for the breaker always seemed high an I did not want to break them so I believe I stepped it down a setting.
I sure wish I had one of those when I had to undo that screw today, so I could know if they used an impact driver or like device. I really had to apply a lot of torque! Used my largest screw driver so as not to damage the slot after trying a slightly smaller one...!!
What are the rated specs of that breaker and the e panel ? Sure seems weird that it melted like that under rated amperage . Almost seems like something else had to be going on - either oxidized wires where it was screwed in or some kind of nick in the wire insulation somwhere ? I would also replace that whole junction bar too - that one is messed up .
Larry
Yup, I robbed my 'parts' Epane l of the buss bar and its factory cable and fab'ed a new line to the PV CB's. .. I looked for obvious damage but none seen so if it was in the first 2+- incjhes they were all fractured by the heat.
I am pretty sure it was a bad connection that is the fault. I really clinched down on the new wires, and will re-torque in the AM to allow for 'flow'..
what is the amp rating of that breaker ?
That damage looks too severe for just a screw down connection that was not torqued down.
Both wires are burnt so did you forget to torque both of them?
I have seen Epanels where the solar inputs were not re-torqued after waiting a day for the copper wire to relax and weeks later when I checked they seemed loose yet there was no severe burning of cables that you evidently have.
Were the cable ends folded over and perhaps soldered so that the cable end more fills the terminal hole?
I would be looking for other reasons to cause such damage. Those cables could just be too light for the current or if they are not multi strand hundreds of cores but few strands then they may have worked hardened strands that have fractured or split. This can cause arcing and burnt cables.
So most of the damage to the terminal block and cables may be secondary heat damage with the real reason for the fault somewhere else.
That breaker wiring looks interesting, is that the PV input breaker? Never liked those high current wire push in DC breakers, much prefer the carling non polarised types with decent bolt lug with both nut and lock washer - then the cable can be properly terminated in a solid copper ring lug that is deformed crushed onto the cable and tightened up once only, none of this copper creep nonsense
Just IMHO
Dgd
I was just looking at the epanel installation instructions. Some of them show that positive bus bar that melted - other schematics don't .
I use the Mini DC panels that I wire up myself according to supplied schematic . On those the terminal stud on the inverter breaker is used as the positive dc connection - this stud is big and can accept ring terminals that have been crimped on the cables . Then there is a nut that you can use a socket on to really get some torque on and get tight.
I wonder if you get some longer wires if you can do the same sort of arrangement with your epanel and eliminate that positive terminal strip ?
And yes dgd - I switched from those din rail to other breaker with 1/4 studs - much easier to wire and torque up tight than the din breakers . I had to switch since I needed 100 amp breaker because the 63 amp one was too small and tripping off sometimes.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 03, 2015, 11:18:02 PM
what is the amp rating of that breaker ?
It is 60A
Were the cable ends folded over and perhaps soldered so that the cable end more fills the terminal holeNo, just bare wire, straight in..
Both wires are burnt so did you forget to torque both of them?That is possible.
The black on the one to the 60A CB stops parallel to the top of the buss bar, the charring of the insulation is just
at the buss ...
The one to the 175A Inverter breaker post, has its insulation fractured well away from the buss connection.
On those the terminal stud on the inverter breaker is used as the positive dc connection Yes, that is how mine is too.
Hope these pics show what we discussed...
I suppose if they were never tightened at all that might happen ?
So why not eliminate that buss bar all together and just hook up directly ?
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 04, 2015, 02:10:32 PM
I suppose if they were never tightened at all that might happen ?
So why not eliminate that buss bar all together and just hook up directly ?
Larry
They might have been under-torqued, but functioned normally for 2 years... the high amperage brought it to the fore....
I guess it could be done but there must be a reason they (MN) have it in all their E-panels... so I used it.
So you have that 60amp breaker connected to the Classic output and the other side to that bus connector?
Since you now have 3 strings of PVs input , about 1.5kw, to the Classic then the output at 24volts may exceed the breaker rating. Does the breaker get warm or hot?
I agree with Larry, but would also recommend getting that breaker replaced with a 100amp Carling type and using #4 cable with crimped ring lugs to wire from the 100a breaker to the post on the 175A inverter breaker. Forget that small bus connector.
Maybe also #4 fine multistrand from the 100a breaker to the Classic's +Ve output.
The breaker upgrade becomes more important if you add that 4th array string
Dgd
Probably those wires having been loose oxidized over time , and then the resistance value went up as that happened until they got hot .
I am thinking the only reason Midnite used that connector is because it is easy plug and play for people to connect their wires to. Best to eliminate it - and I agree with dgd - if you are ever going to add more power update that breaker to 100 amps.
Larry
I bought one of these inexpensive hydraulic wire crimpers - they don't make the prettiest crimps sometimes cause it smashes out the sides of the die , but it does a good job of making air tight connection that won't ever go bad.
http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
I concur about changing out the CB, for the winter hibernation period I will throw the breaker& selector switch and put the 'added' array back on the other bank.
Yes those hydraulic crimpers are a handy tool, got mine in Can$ with a bit of surfing... hard to filter to just Canadian based sellers ., at times...
Fitting in a Carling breaker may be a bit of a go as it was not designed for a surface mount.
on my midnite minipv disconnect it came with two different ways to mount the circuit breaker - the panel mount like you have would fit five or the bigger 100 amp type I think only space for three .
Larry
And with panel mount 100 amp CB you don't have to be concerned with polarity like you do on those din rail breakers. That is what I am using on my set up and haven't had any issue with connections. Crimped ring connectors are the only way to go IMHO.
On another board, I mentioned my issues with buss bars and #4 wires, my thread here
http://midnitesolar.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1821.msg16448#msg16448
I really don't like the setscrew into the wire bundle, it might be fine on a solid wire, but it just seems to splay half the strands away from good contact, site heats up.... downhill from there.