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[/move]I have a number of old raylitte batteries and I want to drain and open one to check out the plate design and see what
sludge is in the collection tub in the bottom of the battery cases.
Has anyone ever had a look at the internals of a raylitte?
If so what did you use to cut the top off the battery cases?
If they are completely toast I will melt and recycle to contents.
Have been toying with casting plante plates with the end to rebuilding the old raylittes.
Anyone else had any experience in this regard?
I have access to 2 tonnes of battery scrap lead and I will melt some up and test hardness to estimate if there is much
in the way of alloys present in it.
I have reading a bit about making batteries (The Battery Builders Guide by Phillip Hurley) and the biggest hurdle for me seems to be the
battery casing itself. Therefore, I thought of the old raylittes.
Purchased some high quality fibre matting and am going to test that in acid for the plate separators.
Any constructive input is welcome! :)
Im sure you know the plates arent just lead. The plates have additives, like antimony , calcium etc.
Then once you have that right, and they are cast to exactly the right thickness and surface area, you need the active paste material that gets applied to them.
Hi,
The plante plate batteries do not have paste in them as according to the makers book this process is reserved for
higher discharge short life batteries used in car etc.
Better quality long life lead acid batteries do not have alloys in their blend.
The plates are cast as flat sheets and have no holes or the usual grid network in them that everyone is so familar with today.
The trojan L16 I have here have plates 3-4 mm thick and I can not comment on their structure.
We will be aiming for 10 mm thick plates to replace what is in the raylitte battery cases.
Finished product will not be 1660 amp hours, but even if I can get 800 plus amp hour cells from the project that last 15-20 I would be super happy.
I may have to send the scrap lead we have to the local refinery and get some pure lead from them in a swap/pay event.
I am only stating what I have read in regard to the battery plates.
Any older battery construction (not car batteries) experts out there please comment.
Plates sizes etc are covered in the book.
Ok cool. Send us some pics of the project.
Did a bit more reading on the plante plate batteries. The positive plate is solid pure lead as I said before, but there is an advantage to having the negative plate with perforations and paste to increase the batteries overall performance.
Paste can be recycled from old grid mesh style car batteries, crushed up and then sieved to get any small pieces of lead alloy grid
out of the powder. I have been looking at some of my old leatherwork lacing hole punches and the offset rectangular slit type
would be suitable for cutting into the negative plate for impregnation with the paste. It would be a slow process and I am sure I could make a lot larger punch to cover the area a lot faster or a spiked roller to do much the same job.
Having the negative plate only pasted apparently extends the battery life of a large amp hour cell to 15-25 years depending on
the care and abuse given to the battery.
You do not need to paste the negative plates to make the battery functional. But after construction the battery must be charged positive to positive and negative to negative to develop and hold a charge. Then must be discharged and then the process starts again but this time the positive charge goes into the negative terminal of the battery to develop a coating on the negative plates. This process goes on
in excess of 30 times.
Once you are satisfied you discharge the battery and charge it in the normal fashion, positive to + and negative to -.
The capacity of the plante type battery will continue to develop with further use.
I have misplaced my manual at the moment so sorry for not exact terms used.
When the rain stops enough I will retrieve one battery from the other property and drain an cut it open to inspect the raylitte construction.
Hi russ..,
Have been reading this with some interest ...
BUT, is any part of this process really anything that you would want to do ??
The moment you begin handling and processing Lead, seems to me that you are at some risk.
AND, if you were in the USA, your property could become harmed by any Lead debris, dust, shavings, etc.
Life IS short ... it this worth the very real risks ?
FWIW, with attitude. Be careful, Good Luck, Vic
Quote from: russ_drinkwater on February 04, 2016, 03:53:25 PM
Purchased some high quality fibre matting and am going to test that in acid for the plate separators.
Any constructive input is welcome! :)
I would be very interested in how you get on with the glass matt, or is it woven glass fibre.
I have made a multi cell, 8 positive 8 negative, and I only got 50% output compared to an equivalent commercial of the same size.
My main difficulty was making and attaching 3 combs to ensure the plates were evenly spaced, 1 at the base to ensure the plates do not sink under there own weight and the other 2 at each end half way up the plates.
I used 2mm lead sheet for the positive and 1mm for the negative. For the combs I used the top of an old broken car battery and slotted the pieces.
In the end i found that i had spent far to long on the project.
So your experiments with glass matt has re-sparked my interest, as it would mean more plates in the space, so more ah, keep the plates compact and tight, and also lessen the use of so much acid mix.
Not difficult getting lead and acid here.
Containers? polypropylene?
The poly is available and fibre glass will do the job.
There is an area (a reserve, lol) next to one one my properties which has a massive pile of lead batteries that were stored there and subsequently burnt in a bushfire.
There is over 3 tonnes of scrap there to be had and we will do our heating and casting there.
Plenty of wood for the fire and just need corrugated tin for the melt plate and some guttering and a collection drum.
Build the fire and shovel the scrap onto the hot tin and the lead alloy runs off when hot enough.
I have been casting lead bullets on and off for 30 years plus, so I imagine I already some lead build up.
The reason i want to use the surrette tubs is that they have a large sediment pit in the bottom and I am hoping that it will have a honeycomb of poly walls to help support the plates as well. Each raylitte battery weighs in at 65kg (15 liters of electrolyte) and so I would imagine there must be internal support for the grids.
It may nor be worthwhile, but WTH I just want to see if I can do if need be! I am a prepper (and have been for most of my life but never called that) as I live in an isolated rural area. We need to be able to repair and make do with whatever we can as income from cattle and the like is a small return in this country (australia).
If I can make cells and the time comes and I need to then I will make more.
I have been married 3 times now and I am well aware of risks :o
Lead work such as this is all cover up, down wind. I would imagine anyone who has been using lead acid batteries for decades has a measurable amount of lead buildup as well as from the old leaded fuel we had years ago, you know wash the parts in the petrol cuz it gets the crud off real nice and quick (no gloves of course in those days).
To honest I would much prefer to make edison batteries out of the tubs. But there is a lot less info on the construction out there.
I suppose I could just adjust some of the LA advice to suit nickle iron.
Thanks russ.
Please post your endeavours I would love to see how you get on.
Over the years I have found that some Forums are more responsive to Hard Core stuff. Others wheel out the don't do this or that and Health & Safety issues.
Here in Normandy , France, I ended up making my Own 6kw OzInverter, and now a 10kW OzInverter, as the so called commercial boys Inverters muddy the waters, with peculiar software, and end up just very expensive toys. ( I do trust that the Midnite Inverters will be better?)
Batteries are my last hurdle, I have 1300ah C10 but would like some new proper jobs with a long life without forking out silly $ money, and where at present you seem to be at the mercy of the manufacturers vagaries.
Do let me know where you post.
Cheers!
The rain stopped long enough for us to get one of the raylittes home and open it up after draining.
I used a chisel chipped small electric soldering iron to melt the poly tub and lift the lid as I went around it.
We used a block and tackle to lift the cell and tapped the tub down from the top and plates.
What a shock to see the inside of a raylitte batteries considering the cost of them.
The negative plates were in relatively excellent condition with some stratification damage to the paste in the bottom of the grids.
Negative grids were intact and solid.
The positive grids/plates (and I use this term lightly) were just a crumbling mess of crap.
tubular bars of alloyed lead within fiberous sleaves with a light poly seperator to stop contact with the negative plates on either side.
4 out of the 12 positive plates were not even attached to the buss bar and had decomposed.
Considering that the attaching "lead" tag was over 10mm thick shocked me.
After seeing this I would never buy raylitte batteries at any cost.
The negative grid plates in all fairness are fantastic and I will using them and adding plante plates to the positive side of the battery.
Whatever alloyed lead material was used in the positive plates is really inferior and rubbbish.
My thoughts on this are 1. The design and structure of the positive plates is such so as to squeeze the last amps out of the battery. 2.
The inferior lead alloy used is to reduce the life expectancy of the cells and just adds to the costs of manufacturing the battery.
If the positive plates were a solid pure lead design at the 10mm thick as they are then the batteries would with proper care last 20 years plus IMOFWIW.
Why make a battery which will last 20-30 years as this will stuff up your future sales! :o
All other features on the batteries are quite good and well designed.
The only other thing I could mention is the tubs are rather thin, but as they are in a further 2 cell tub this is a minor thing.
I will attempt to procure some 10 mm pure lead sheeting to save time in making the new positive plates.
These batteries are well under 10 years old.
My photo files are too large to attach, sorry I can not load them.
Russ, do you use Windows - Office Picture Manager? If so it had a compression utility built in..
Yeah it sure would be nice to see some photos of this battery...
I think Russ was burning the midnight oil, It is about 14 hrs difference between us here ;) so probably tonight... ::)
Hi, It is 11am here atm.
I am not familiar with that program.
If I can at least send some image to someone and they cam mod them for the forum.
The disappointment I felt when I saw the construction of that battery is, lol, extreme.
I had visions of bad sulfation and maybe being able to manually remove it. But absolute destruction and collapse was
unexpected! :( :(
If anyone has an email I can send the photos to please let me know.
>The positive grids/plates (and I use this term lightly) were just a crumbling mess of crap.
This is one of the two main primary failure modes of lead acid cells. Positive grid corosion. Its actually a feature of lead acid chemistry, however it is generally thought to be more of an issue with AGM than with flooded cells, which have the room to use thicker grids, and tend to vent the oxygen away which is one of the causes of the corosion. Sounds like this bank spent a lot of time in float.
I showed my ignorance and trust when we initially purchased the cells (We got our money back after a few weeks when I tested the cells and put them on charge and they crashed under load and was making a claim through our court system, so we got the money refunded).
When raylittes are developing trouble the positive terminal starts to swell/bulge from the inside from pressure from growth when the structure is breaking down. All part of learning and I should not be so trusting as it has cost me a lot of money through business over the years :-[, :'(. They were off a 48 volt system with a 12 kw array feeding it. Obviously, the batteries had had an absolute canning. Still the internal structure is not designed to be strong and withstand heavy usage. As I stated before if the positive plate were plante style the batteries most likely would be still serviceable.
If I can retrofit solid plates into even 12 volts of cells I will be super happy and test them out amperage wise.
Posting for Russ hopefully I get his comments with the correct photos ;) . Russ if I got them backwards let me know an I can edit your comments.
First shot is the negative plates showing the results of stratification, but still an all not too bad a condition when compared to the positive plates. These negative plates will/can be repasted for years of extra service.
Posting for Russ.
Second is the fabric tubes holding the positive plates.
Posting for Russ
Third is the negative plates which we left attached to the buss bar.
Posting for Russ
Fourth is the plates and spacers as we withdrew the contents of the cell and sulfation can be seen.
Posting for Russ
Fifth is the decomposed positive plates showing the crumbled alloy material within the tubular jackets.
Posting for Russ.
Sixth is the rough cut job I did with the electric soldering iron, lol.
Wow thats not quite what I would have expected ??? :-\
Nice pics.......
Sadly it brought back memories of some of my batts that were just mush.
You said the tub was thin, is it serrated/ridged on the inside? Thickness of the tub walls please.?
I have not worked with those Surrete 1660amp batteries, what are the dimensions of the tub. ?
Thanks.
YES, thanks for the photos Russ and John ...
The Surrette model number is shown in that last pic -- the one showing the rough-cut at the top of the battery.
It looks to be a 2C ???...25. This IS a 25-plate 2V battery, so that must be the part number/model number.
The construction does not look like anything that I've seen from Surrette.
Russ, do you know the original application that these batteries were designed for? And do you know the Date Code?
Thanks, Vic
The tubs are 2mm thick and IMO are ummmm crap compared to those used on trojans. Also there is no internal or external ribbing for increased structural integrety.There are 2 of these cells in a further heavy tub and this is what they rely on for strength :'(
I will have to have a look at the remaining cells to get the parts number off them and will measure them up. I know the 2 batteries in the yellow tub weigh in at approx 135kgs! If that helps? Yes the cells are 2.25 volts.
Those style of raylites are all that I have seen here in australia, as some are bigger/heavier and others are smaller/lighter.
Those particular cells came from a standalone 48 volt system approx 50 kms from where I live and I think from memory the owner has about 12kw of array and a 7kw plus selectronics inverter.
Where will the date code be?
Honestly I was genuinely shocked and disappointed with the construction of the positive plates.
The external exclusion sleeve is a good idea. I have broken a few pieces of the positive plates and they are brittle similar to linotype.
If the positive plates were made from high quality pure lead sheets then the batteries would IMO still be going and in good condition.
Yes I know the positive plates have to cope with most of the abuse. But if you look at the negative plates in the photos you will see that there is no damage to the grid work and they are a much softer form (pure lead I suspect) of lead. I have misplaced my battery builder book atm :( :(.
The new trojans I purchased have a much different appearance when looking at the top of the grids. From what I can see they are approx 5 mm thick in the trojans (positive plates) and the negative plates are the same basic structure as those used in the raylites.
The trojan plates appear (I am not going to cut the top off my new cells, ok!) to be solid across their width.
Hi, again.
This is what they look like!
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/childers/garage-sale/batteries-deep-cycle/1103196500?utm_source=criteo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=LF-
Follow the link to the add on our gumtree and check out the photos.
Russ
Hi Russ,
Thanks for the Link to the ad for the batteries that you now have. I assume that the ad is for the exact batteries that you have begun to dissect.
The ad does mention Raylite brand of batteries, and searching for Raylite, sites, like the following one come up, with batteries that look exactly like the ones shown in the pics from the gumtree ad:
http://www.alcobatt.com.au/page/raylite-batteries/
In a quick search, cannot find the relationship between Raylite, and Surrette.
Surrette batteries do look similar to some of the Raylite ones, but, just could not find how the two companies might be linked together.
Here is a pic of some Surrette 5000 series batteries. The 4KS25P is a similar looking, and similar size battery to what was in the ad on gumtree:
http://rollsbattery.com/renewable_energy/
The Surrette battery site operates a bit strangely, so the above link may not work too well ... FWIW.
EDIT: Here is a pic of the 4KS25 Surrette, which has similar specs to the one that Russ is working on:
http://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/4KS25P.pdf
Thanks for any clarification that you might be able to add on Raylite, verses Surrette.
Vic
Ooooops, my bad it isssssssssssssssss raylitte cells I will correct all my posts! :-[ :-[
I think you have to change the original post.... mind you the header on this say Raylitte... when I click REPLY but in the forum form it still says Surette.... hmm they both have 2 t's in the name...??
OOPPS too fast to respond, now it is changed...
It does appear that the OP can possibly change the Subject of the Thread in the first Post, and quite possibly, each of the OP's Posts will have the change in the Subject line, BUT, it appears that this Global change might only apply to the first Page of the OP's Posts ...
EDIT, well, now, it does appear that new posts, here on Page 3, will pick up the change made by the OP on Pg. 1, I guess, possibly ...<
AND, guessing more, each Post from others will need to be changed by those posters, one-by-one ... FWIW
Thanks Russ, for the update on batteries that you have ARE Raylite.
Guessing done for now, Thanks, Vic
each Post from others will need to be changed by those posters, one-by-one
Right you are Vic, glad I only made a few posts... ;)
I do sincerely apologise to roll surrette for my mistake! ??? ??? ???
Got confused as I was in the process of buying some rolls surrettes a month or so ago and it
was burned in my pea brain.
Quote from: russ_drinkwater on February 09, 2016, 10:50:51 PM
I do sincerely apologise to roll surrette for my mistake! ??? ??? ???
Got confused as I was in the process of buying some rolls surrettes a month or so ago and it
was burned in my pea brain.
Hi Russ,
Don't be too hard on yourself. The external design of those Raylite batteries look a bit like the Surrette 5000 series batteries.
I have been a fan of Surrette batteries and the company and the batteries have given good service -- all three Surrette battery banks here are in their 11th year ... knock on wood!.
AND, it is very interesting seeing how batteries are made. Thanks! Vic
I hope your rolls are of a better design for long life than the raylittes mate!
The bit I have seen is they appear to be a beefed up version of trojans.