The neighbours are heading to their place (next door) at Easter and I have been watching their off-grid systems. They have a 1000 watt array hooked to an older Outback controller and another 1000 watt array hooked to a year old (or so) Midnite Classic 200 controller.
Both arrays/controllers had been working great until a couple weeks ago. The Classic 200 shows battery voltage, and array voltage but is not making any power (no amps - no watts). The controller is going between resting and MPPT bulk status but never makes any power. All the connections have been checked and are all tight. The Outback controller has been hooked to the Classic 200’s array and works fine. Have rebooted it etc and nothing has changed.
Could the Classic 200 simply need a firmware update, maybe the problem has resulted from a power surge/lightening issue?
Thanks.
Have you tried doing a Factory Reset (also known as VMM)? turn off the PV then the battery.... turn the batteries back on While
pressing the left and right arrows, it will whirrr and blink at you so you know it is back in shape.... then turn on the PV...
BEFORE you do that reset, use the Local App to record all the settings...
IF that proves successful, look at the version of FW and it probably needs an update, current V. is FW 2079
Thanks Westbranch.
Yes, tried the factory reset. It powered up again, but amps/wattage was still sitting at zero. The other array was in the general area and was producing a few hundred watts.
what are the settings for charging and End amps etc?
Hi alyaz,
A few questions and comments;
What is the input voltage to the Classic when there is good sun on its PV array?
Is there any shading (shadows) on the PV array for the Classic?
What is the Reason For Resting (RFR) number when the Classic is resting, here is a Link to determine the RFR:
http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=2034.0
When there is good sun on the PVs, try switching off the PV input breaker to the Outback CC. Does the Classic wake up, and make reasonable power during Bulk?
Are you saying that essentially the Classic never makes any reasonable amount of power, even when there is good sun on its PVs, and the OB CC is in Bulk?
On the main Status of the MNGP (if it is a Standard Classic), how much power was produced for the day? In order for the Classic to be in Bulk, SOME power needs to be produced -- at least about 15 Watts.
With two independent charge sources, there is a greater likelihood that one of them will rest during Absorb, if the other charger is producing power at a bit higher battery voltage, than the Absorb voltage setting on the other CC, but both CCs should produce reasonable power during Bulk, if both CCs have good sun on their PVs.
If in the absence of the neighbors there is very little discharge of the battery bank, the Bulk stage could be short, and perhaps you might not have seen it ... know that you appear to have two Classics, and are probably quite familiar with how they operate.
Thanks, Vic
Did you turn on the solar after resetting the Classic
VT
Yes I ensured it was in solar mode and hit enter. It never shows any amps or watts, just sits at zero... even in full sun.
I will need to check the settings for charging and end amps - what are acceptable parameters?
alyaz
acceptable parameters are If you have done as WB posted on a resetting the classic back into basic mode (VMM to some) then the first screen should be asking you voltage of the battery bank & is it in hydro / wind/ turbine mode. DID THAT HAPPEN ?
DID you see that ?
If you did , then the Classic should be in a standard acceptable parameters of that voltage.
We are reading your sig line of a totally different system .
So solar panel breaker off (the IN of power ) , then main battery breaker off (the out of the power) classic should go off & black MNGP panel of all of whats .
Then as WB posted Have you tried doing a Factory Reset (also known as VMM)? turn off the PV then the battery.... turn the batteries back on While
pressing the left and right arrows, it will whirrr and blink at you so you know it is back in shape.... then turn on the PV...
DID that happen in that order ?
VT
ill add in a bit after I look at my classic ,
edit add . main menu , MODE, solar picked & ON ?
needed to check the path to that.
Your a neighbour , so did you hear a thunder storm ?? Where are you that lightning might be an issue ?
Could the Classic 200 simply need a firmware update, maybe the problem has resulted from a power surge/lightening issue?
SPDs have any LEDS out .
I see on your sig line , 4 lightening arrestors.
If you see full sun & it clicks between resting and MPPT bulk status , Im leaning towards bad panel to controller connection .
if im guessing 1000 watt awary is in series parallel of some sort
VT
thanks guys. i will wander over today and have another look at things.
sorry for the confusion, their set up is of course different than my ‘signature.’
i followed the manual for the reboot which did not say to turn the array off, just to power the 200 off and on while holding the side arrows. when i did the reboot it did power up and asked me for voltage, date, etc., so i assumed it rebooted properly.
we did have a lot of lightening this winter, which is unusual for this area. they only have one Midnite lightening arrestor (i urged them to get lightening arrestors last year and they chose to only get one and their electrician placed it on their AC side).
Im really thinking that the DC panel feed to the classic is the problem . BE SAFE because its an unknown voltage for us here & you till you know the wiring hook up.
1000 watt would be a few strings , count the combiner breakers helps.
Hi alyaz,
OK, when you Reboot (or set to Factory Defaults), the Charge voltage defaults to a fairly low value. This is really too low for Flooded batteries;
What type of batteries does this system have?
You will need to check the Limits in the Charge menu to make sure that these limits are wide enough to correctly Temperature Compensate for the type of batteries that this system is using.
In addition to telling us the type of batteries on this system,
What is the Absorb voltage setting?
What is the EA setting in the Charge>Advanced menu?
What it the Input voltage to the Classic with good sun on the PVs?
What is the Absorb time setting?
What is the RFR on the Classic?
What is the power production from the Classic, on the lower left of the Main Status screen?
This system does not really need a WBjr set up to end Absorb, at this point, so no need to set all of those parameters.
BUT, please try turning OFF the PV in to the OB CC, and see what the Classic does with good sun on its PV array.
If this system is using Flooded batteries, it is quite possible that the OB has higher Absorb voltage settings that does the Classic. This could make the Classic Rest during the Absorb stage. Please DO check the RFR on the Classic if it is resting.
Thanks for answering the questions that have been asked, this should be helpful.
Good Luck, Vic
Hi Vic
I can answer some of those questions before heading over there... when they had their system installed set up, the electrician left everything in default settings, so i called the battery manufacturer and obtained the proper set points. i helped them set up the controller and the settings on custom are:’
absorb 29.4v
float 27.2 v
they have agm batteries
they have two strings on the 1000 watt array which runs to the Classic 200.
the rfr may shed some insight into what’s going on there... thanks for that!
will report back.
OK, Thanks alyaz for that information, will look for any additional information that you can provide later.
Thanks, Vic
Good catch VIC .
I assumed !! THat his neighbours system had 2 arrays & 2 CC & two battery banks !!
The Outback controller has been hooked to the Classic 200’s array and works fine. Have rebooted it etc and nothing has changed.
Correct.
They have:
one battery bank - 24 v - approx 1500 a/hr - 12 6v agm batteries - 3 strings of 4
two arrays, both 1000 watts
one array in two strings to a Midnite 200
one array in two strings to an older Outback 60
Thanks guys... heading out shortly.
Well not sure I can add too much to the 'knowledge' here, but will add a few details to the questions asked below (inserted along side the questions asked). As already mentioned, the Classic 200 was working like magic for the past year. About two weeks ago I noticed no wattage/amps on the display. It cycled back and forth (maybe every 30 seconds) between resting and bulk mppt - similar to what they do on a cloudy/rainy day when the controller can't get enough voltage to make power.
I did get the latest firmware updates into the Classic (both the charger and display updates). However, it did not make any difference.
I did about three reboots, as per you guys' directions. I also confirmed the mode 'solar' was on and entered. I also tried the mode 'legacy' and the scan was quicker, but still no power was made.
I forgot to take the instructions from the link on how to access the RFR codes.
Although I have two Midnite Classics, my skill level is pretty basic. I can get around the menus etc, but that's about it.
I did call the electrician who installed the Midnite controller and he checked the breakers, wiring etc. As already mentioned, he confirmed the Midnite's array works with the Outback. The Outback's array hooked to the Classic also makes no power.
Conclusion = Midnite 200: %#$@!&*%
Regards, Al. :-)
Quote from: Vic on March 20, 2016, 01:01:18 PM
Hi alyaz,
OK, when you Reboot (or set to Factory Defaults), the Charge voltage defaults to a fairly low value. This is really too low for Flooded batteries;
What type of batteries does this system have?
AGM's - 1500 a/hr - 24v
You will need to check the Limits in the Charge menu to make sure that these limits are wide enough to correctly Temperature Compensate for the type of batteries that this system is using.
The parameters for the batteries are set as per the manufacturer; abs=29.4v, float=27.2v, eq=nil
In addition to telling us the type of batteries on this system,
What is the Absorb voltage setting?
What is the EA setting in the Charge>Advanced menu?
end amps seems to default to 0, although i set it to 3a and it did nothing different.
What it the Input voltage to the Classic with good sun on the PVs?
when i was there today it was anywhere between 69v to 81v - not the sunniest of days here.
What is the Absorb time setting?
set for 3.5 hours.
What is the RFR on the Classic?
forgot to print out the link so i didn't know how to retrieve it... duh!
What is the power production from the Classic, on the lower left of the Main Status screen?
0 kWh for the past two weeks.
This system does not really need a WBjr set up to end Absorb, at this point, so no need to set all of those parameters.
BUT, please try turning OFF the PV in to the OB CC, and see what the Classic does with good sun on its PV array.
no change.
If this system is using Flooded batteries, it is quite possible that the OB has higher Absorb voltage settings that does the Classic. This could make the Classic Rest during the Absorb stage. Please DO check the RFR on the Classic if it is resting.
Thanks for answering the questions that have been asked, this should be helpful.
Good Luck, Vic
alyaz
Im in the same school & class .
Many here all have knowledge of different levels.
Were in a good class.
If the Classic that is RMA for diagnosing & repaired , it would be GREAT that this thread was updated for the Failure .
Like alyaz posted , only one SPD & it's on the AC side ( ¿ ) and he heard thunder .
Im not saying that the Classic has been damaged , wait for VIC & then call Midnite is what I need to do next week on my damaged KID
VT
Hi alyaz,
Thanks for checking on things there, and the report.
OK, so you did try turning the OB CC's PV in breaker to OFF, and the Classic did nothing different, therefore your comment, "no change".
But, the comment that this was NOT the sunniest of days, is a bit difficult to decode.
At the time that you switched the OB CC PV in breaker to OFF, was the Classic's PV array in good sun, and were there distinct shadows cast on the ground from things like your body, and was it between about 10 AM and 2 PM, local time?? If distinct shadows cannot be cast from blocking the sun during about midday, solar production can be easily be reduced by about 90%, or more.
It is easy to sense your frustration, sorry to drill you with so many questions.
The RFR number could help quite a lot in diagnosing just why the Classic is Resting.
As you may know, almost ANY shading at all can dramatically reduce PV output, and this could possibly explain why the Classic might not be producing meaningful power, so carefully looking for any shadows at all on the Classic's PV array could help, also.
Still a bit confusing that you DO see the Classic in Bulk, yet there is absolutely 0 power produced in the past two weeks ... For the Classic to be in Bulk it needs to be producing about 15-ish watts of power.
Also, this system has the Battery Temperature Sensor (BTS) installed? How warm or cold do you think that the batteries might be? As I mentioned, checking the Limits Menu to see just what are those settings. The Defaults (which are set when the VMM -- Restore Factory Defaults if done -- Limits the highest Absorb voltage to something like the Veq setting, IIRC, and if the batteries are cold, this could, possibly be an issue.
So, perhaps contact MidNite Tech via e-mail or phone. Having the RFR might help them.
We do sense your frustration, and we all have been there with our systems, and it is kind of you to look in on your neighbor's system.
Sorry, cannot offer much more. Good Luck, and please to check back to let us know what you have found, and any reports of what might have been the issue with the Classic.
Thanks ! Good Luck, Vic
Thanks Vic.
The day today was pretty mixed weather. But when the array was showing about 80v, there was high overcast light haze with obvious sun (no shading) on the array. Even when the sun disappeared behind heavier cloud, the Outback CC was producing 150-200 watts. The Midnite, nothing, zero, nada.
Interesting comment you made about the Midnite’s brief bulking status and how typically something for power is being received.
I will get over there again hopefully tomorrow and pull the RFR code.
Yes the Midnite battery sensor is installed. The batteries are housed in an insulated shed, and the temperature has been pretty steady at around 50 degrees F lately.
Probably a bit frustrated also because I encouraged them to not buy another Outback controller when they put in the second array. I appreciate things go wrong but I do feel a bit of responsibility for the Midnite controller not working all of a sudden. Oh well, we will get it figured out. :-)
Will keep you posted.
Regards, Al
Hi Al,
Thanks for the reply. Am sure that the situation will be figured out fairly soon.
Good Luck, and yes, please do let us know what is discovered -- we are all learning about this stuff. Vic
okay pulled the RFR code: 5 ‘too low power and Vbatt below set point for 90 seconds.’
does that mean anything to you guys? again, the confusing part for me is that the classics array hooked to the outback makes power on the outback. the outbacks array hooked to the classic does not make any power on the classic either. factory reset done numerous times and shouldn’t the default parameters at least get the classic up and operating, maybe not optimally but at least functioning (if there isn’t something wrong with the classic?).
Hi Al,
Thanks for the RFR number.
Well, there may well be something wrong with that Classic.
There could be something wrong with the circuit breaker on the output of the Classic, or some poor connection in the cable from the Classic to its output breaker, or from the breaker to the battery + buss.
If you would feel comfortable doing so, could you remove the front cover on the Classic, and very carefully measure the input voltage on the PV input terminals to the Classic?? With the fairly high PV input voltages that this Classic uses, you would need to be very careful in doing this.
To me, if there is nothing wrong with this Classic, then a poor connection in PV input, or in the output of the Classic's connection to the battery would be likely cause.
It sounds like some or all of this system was installed by an Electrician. But, generally using the correct torque on all screw terminal connections is of critical importance when these connections are first installed, and then to re-torque them again in about 24 hours, as copper conductors cold flow in time. So if you are comfortable doing so, you could try to re-torque the PV in connections on the input breaker, the Classic PV and battery terminals, as well as all of the output connections from the Classic to the breaker and battery, as well.
... I should add, that you can sometimes see the effects of poor connections at circuit breakers, and possibly the input/output connections in the Classic, by some discoloration on the terminal screws, and in extreme cases, even discoloration/blackening on cable insulation, at the connection point to breakers and busbars. You might want to look for this, as an indication of where a poor connection might be ...
More Later. Thanks, Vic
In addition to retorquing , use an IR thermometer to look for hot connections or look for signs of overheating at all connections including inside the distribution box or E-panel....
example attached...
Yikes.
Well thanks to all. I’m leaving/left the ‘hot wire’ investigation to the electrician, in part because I don’t want to take any chances blowing up someone else’s stuff :-)
I now have an RMA number and will try to remember to update the thread when it is returned. It will be a long process though because we live on a small island. Getting an electrician here to remove and reinstall will likely take longer than getting the unit through the Canada / USA border.
Stay tuned...
Make sure you talk to Ryan about the wording on the paperwork that accompanies the unit when it is returned.... It is very specific and must be used OR you will have to pay a fee that will be charged when it comes over the border.... This happened to me a few weeks ago....
That picture the WB posted =WOW .
What Island Al ?
lasqueti
I will be taking my damaged KID dow in 3 weeks .
VT
Quote from: alyaz on March 21, 2016, 02:05:36 PM
Yikes.
Well thanks to all. I’m leaving/left the ‘hot wire’ investigation to the electrician, in part because I don’t want to take any chances blowing up someone else’s stuff :-)
I now have an RMA number and will try to remember to update the thread when it is returned. It will be a long process though because we live on a small island. Getting an electrician here to remove and reinstall will likely take longer than getting the unit through the Canada / USA border.
Stay tuned...
OK Al,
Thanks for the update.
It is great that you folks are on an island, but too bad that this makes Professional help scarce.
Good that you have an RMA for the Classic. MidNite DOES have great Customer Service and Tech Support.
Please DO update us on what was the issue with the Classic, as we all are learning as we go along.
Also, bet that you will be strongly encouraging your neighbors to al least add MNSPDs to the PV input from each PV array, and probably grounding the PVs and frames to a good ground system, regardless of what was the ultimate cause of the problem.
Good Luck, Vic
Quote from: Westbranch on March 21, 2016, 02:34:00 PM
Make sure you talk to Ryan about the wording on the paperwork that accompanies the unit when it is returned.... It is very specific and must be used OR you will have to pay a fee that will be charged when it comes over the border.... This happened to me a few weeks ago....
Thanks for the heads up. Did they nail you with a brokerage fee?
Regards Al
"Also, bet that you will be strongly encouraging your neighbors to al least add MNSPDs to the PV input from each PV array, and probably grounding the PVs and frames to a good ground system, regardless of what was the ultimate cause of the problem.
Good Luck, Vicâ€
haha, i already have. :-) thanks for all your help!
Yes and a possible bit of GST
Copy, thanks. The only thing I miss about living near Sumas, WA was being able to walk my stuff back and forth over the border. Made times like this a lot easier :-)
Okay, just to let anyone interested know, the controller had a bad resistor. I was told that this apparently can occur from time to time. Controller has been repaired. Thanks to everyone who helped with the trouble shooting... I also have a refurbished unit on the way for backup...
Hi Al,
Thanks a lot for the update. Too bad that you needed to return the Classic, but glad that it is fixed, and that you now have a backup Classic. I also have a Refurb Cl 150, that has been in service for at least 18 months, and is doing fine.
Thanks, Have Fun, Vic
Thanks Vic. Now that I have a backup / to be shared with the neighbour, the Classics will probably work for ever. But that is fine! Haha...
hehe... i think we all agree that Midnite’s warranty and customer service is top notch! they seem to be a great bunch of people there...