Hello, I have my classic controller 150 that displays more PV power amp or intensity. all this started after a poor clamping circuit breaker between the regulator and the batteries and resulting in a surge in the regulator output that has a little smoky. what do I have to do?
Thanks
Hi bafaro,
So the smoke came from inside the Classic?
And, are you saying that this smoke appears to have resulted from a poorly-tightened circuit breaker terminal connection on the output of the Classic, to the battery positive?
The output current now appears to be higher on the Classic's display (MNGP), that is displayed elsewhere?
What is the amount of the increase in intensity. And, how do you know that this higher intensity is a problem, and above what you expect?
Thanks for any added details. Vic
Vic thank you for your prompt response,
to the fact the smoke does not come from within, it is only at the positive output of the Classic. I only deduce that there had been an over but it's not sure. The circuit breaker was very hot to the touch.
Bafaro
Hi bafaro,
OK, Cable connections at any connection point must be very tightly torqued. AND, then torqued again after approximately 24 hours time. This is because the wires in the cable, basically flow away from the force applied by the clamping screw mechanism. This is true for the MNEPV type breakers, with the screw terminals.
Loose (poor) connections often have fairly high resistance. This resistance, with high currents generates a lot of heat.
It might be possible that the breaker was damaged by the heat. Be certain to carefully clean the wires in the cable that was hot, or if possible, cut off any dark burned part of the cable, strip, and then torque very tightly, the connection.
If you have a spare breaker of the correct size, you might want to replace the original breaker with a new or good one.
If the output of the Classic going through the breaker that was getting hot had been reduced due to a fairly high resistance, and then you corrected the problem, by cleaning or cutting off the damaged part of the cable, and then correctly torqued the breaker connections, it is possible for you to see an increase in the output of the Classic. This could possibly be the origin of an increase in the output current of the Classic. If this is what you are now seeing, with the increase in output intensity, things might be good and correct ...
More later, Vic
Actually I replaced the breaker and the cable after cleaning the smoky positive terminal of the regulator. But after all this still no PV power, no amps.
Quote from: bafaro on July 01, 2016, 03:49:54 PM
Actually I replaced the breaker and the cable after cleaning the smoky positive terminal of the regulator. But after all this still no PV power, no amps.
OH!! Sorry, had felt that you noticed that there had been an INCREASE in the Amp output of the Classic, after fixing this event, and that the "smoky" was not from inside the Classic...
Do you have a photo of that part of the Classic, so the amount of possible damage might be more apparent?
When the Classic's battery breaker is turned on, does the display backlight come on? Do the fans turn on for a few seconds, and then off?
Is there anything displayed on the Classic display panel (MNGP)?
Thanks, Vic
MNGP display is normal, communication with the localstatuspanel is correct. I will make a picture to send but somehow attach the photo.
Thanks
Bafaro
Wow! thats a bit of a disaster ???
I would certainly not expect that Classic to be working normally after that heat damage. The pcb beside the burnt terminal and below it is probaby pretty damaged
Maybe you need to contact MN and see if it is repairable since it seems the logic pcb (topmost one) has survived as it still starts up.
dgd
Thank you board, I will contact Midnite if the PCB can be replaced if it is not repairable.
WOW!! That is some serious looking damage.
Good Luck bafaro. Vic
it's not likely that the traces on the circuit board are any good. at the least , the one board is bad.
what to do in this case?
Thanks
Contact midnite- pcb is fried!
Ok, thanks
P.s. change the batt. temperature sensor clip after you get the classic fixed. :-)
I do not quite understand what you mean here.
The blue cable that looks like a phone jack that goes to sense the battery temperature... :-)
Looks melted from the picture you posted
George
Quote from: grgdgreek on July 02, 2016, 07:48:31 AM
The blue cable that looks like a phone jack that goes to sense the battery temperature... :-)
Looks melted from the picture you posted
George
it got soft for sure from the heat, I would replace it!
Walt
There has been several things that have been curious about the photo in reply #6;
The screw for the Bat + terminal must be a replacement. There seems to be rust on that screw, and perhaps on the lower part of that terminal.
And, what is that Aluminum dust-looking material on the blue terminal block, toward the bat --, and PV terminals?
Was water sprayed on the Classic during the overheating event?
In what type of environment was this Classic operating?
There are terminal Torque specifications that must be followed for safety reasons.
In lieu of the appropriate tool to measure terminal torque, tighten all electrical cable terminal connections tight, wait about 24 hours and re-torque. The larger the terminal clamp screw, and cable being used, the greater is the required torque.
It is a good idea to check the torque of all screw terminal cable connections after about one month after installation, and then annually (IMO).
Did just look for Classic Battery/PV Terminal block torque specs, but could not find them in the Manual, OR in an e-Panel Manual ... may be vision impaired, and passed over the spec.
In the absence of any specific specification for the Classic terminal block torque spec, the following Busbar & Breaker Torque Table would probably be better than nothing:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/torque_values.pdf
Thanks bafaro for any added info about the screw on the Bat + terminal, etc
FWIW, Vic
Quote from: bafaro on July 01, 2016, 05:33:55 PM
MNGP display is normal, communication with the localstatuspanel is correct. I will make a picture to send but somehow attach the photo.
Thanks
Bafaro
Quote from: Vic on July 02, 2016, 02:44:17 PM
There has been several things that have been curious about the photo in reply #6;
The screw for the Bat + terminal must be a replacement. There seems to be rust on that screw, and perhaps on the lower part of that terminal.
And, what is that Aluminum dust-looking material on the blue terminal block, toward the bat --, and PV terminals?
Was water sprayed on the Classic during the overheating event?
In what type of environment was this Classic operating?
There are terminal Torque specifications that must be followed for safety reasons.
In lieu of the appropriate tool to measure terminal torque, tighten all electrical cable terminal connections tight, wait about 24 hours and re-torque. The larger the terminal clamp screw, and cable being used, the greater is the required torque.
It is a good idea to check the torque of all screw terminal cable connections after about one month after installation, and then annually (IMO).
Did just look for Classic Battery/PV Terminal block torque specs, but could not find them in the Manual, OR in an e-Panel Manual ... may be vision impaired, and passed over the spec.
#10 AWG 25 to 35 inch pounds
#8 AWG 30 to 40 inch pounds
#6 AWG 40 to 50 inch pounds
Page 24 at the bottom
In the absence of any specific specification for the Classic terminal block torque spec, the following Busbar & Breaker Torque Table would probably be better than nothing:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/torque_values.pdf
Thanks bafaro for any added info about the screw on the Bat + terminal, etc
FWIW, Vic
I'm with you vic,two maybe three screws were replaced for unknown reason but bafaro can bring us up to speed on that. Maybe the screws wouldn't torque down properly as I think I see the heads of the screws mared a bit.
Walt
Hi BobWhite,
Thank You for posting this data from the 2056 version of the Classic Manual,
"#10 AWG 25 to 35 inch pounds
#8 AWG 30 to 40 inch pounds
#6 AWG 40 to 50 inch pounds
Page 24 at the bottom"
Thanks Bob, must of blown right past that data, and was using that same manual .pdf, at that.
Thanks again, Vic
no problem Vic, I try to contribute when I can. ;)
screw the battery + terminal is indeed original screws, it was burned during the incident. the burn mark is only at the positive terminal. when I unplugged the classic poster on the MNGP the voltage of the battery bank which means its operation is not it?
I just presented three other replacement screws for other terminals (bat-, pv + and PV-) since the original screws were lost during my various tests.
Thanks
Bafaro
Quote from: Vic on July 02, 2016, 04:47:19 PM
Hi BobWhite,
Thank You for posting this data from the 2056 version of the Classic Manual,
"#10 AWG 25 to 35 inch pounds
#8 AWG 30 to 40 inch pounds
#6 AWG 40 to 50 inch pounds
Page 24 at the bottom"
Thanks Bob, must of blown right past that data, and was using that same manual .pdf, at that.
Thanks again, Vic
Well I have a snap-on torque screwdriver (with NIST certificate) and I can tell you anything over 35 inch pounds is going to start twisting the heads off those terminal block screws. Especially 40-50 in pounds. Has anyone ever tried to put 40-50 inch-pounds on those screw heads?
[/quote]
Well I have a snap-on torque screwdriver (with NIST certificate) and I can tell you anything over 35 inch pounds is going to start twisting the heads off those terminal block screws. Especially 40-50 in pounds. Has anyone ever tried to put 40-50 inch-pounds on those screw heads?
[/quote]
John, most of my torque wrenches/drivers are snap on and calibrated/certified at least every other year as my lively hood depends on accuracy. personally I have torqued them down to 45 inch pounds with a model TQ-12-B snap on torqometer serial #75418 without any issue. I do feel control of your tools are important but also know the frustration of slipping. If the screw galls it will never torque down properly. Just a few thoughts not criticizing!
Walt
Hi John,
I DO have calibrated drivers for torqueing screws, but have not ever used any of them on CCs, breakers or terminal blocks. Just torque them TIGHT first, and re-torque them twice again before use ... has always worked fine.
And bafaro, if that Battery + screw is original, it must have been modified, perhaps due to heat damage, as it has a slot in it ... perhaps in that photo in Reply #6, the original screw had been replaced. None of the screws in the Classics here, look like that.
bafaro, still that Bat + screw looks RUSTED Wonder what happened with it to create that Iron oxide RUST look on the screw ??
AND, there appears to be some metallic dust on the blue terminal block on the Bat --, near the PV + & -- screws, what do you think that is, or is from ??
Thanks for any added detail, Vic
Quote from: BobWhite on July 02, 2016, 09:08:47 PM
John, most of my torque wrenches/drivers are snap on and calibrated/certified at least every other year as my lively hood depends on accuracy. personally I have torqued them down to 45 inch pounds with a model TQ-12-B snap on torqometer serial #75418 without any issue. I do feel control of your tools are important but also know the frustration of slipping. If the screw galls it will never torque down properly. Just a few thoughts not criticizing!
Walt
Sure do prefer the Terminal blocks with the Allen Socket head screws -- very positive!
FWIW, Vic
[/quote]
Sure do prefer the Terminal blocks with the Allen Socket head screws -- very positive!
FWIW, Vic
[/quote]
Vic I love your thinking and the Allen socket set screw can easily replace the original screws.
Walt
Quote from: Vic on July 02, 2016, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: BobWhite on July 02, 2016, 09:08:47 PM
John, most of my torque wrenches/drivers are snap on and calibrated/certified at least every other year as my lively hood depends on accuracy. personally I have torqued them down to 45 inch pounds with a model TQ-12-B snap on torqometer serial #75418 without any issue. I do feel control of your tools are important but also know the frustration of slipping. If the screw galls it will never torque down properly. Just a few thoughts not criticizing!
Walt
Sure do prefer the Terminal blocks with the Allen Socket head screws -- very positive!
FWIW, Vic
Very good idea, Vic..!!
You seem to indicate yours are not slotted. Mine are slotted and they have vary little material on the edge of the slots.
Quote from: Vic on July 02, 2016, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: BobWhite on July 02, 2016, 09:08:47 PM
John, most of my torque wrenches/drivers are snap on and calibrated/certified at least every other year as my lively hood depends on accuracy. personally I have torqued them down to 45 inch pounds with a model TQ-12-B snap on torqometer serial #75418 without any issue. I do feel control of your tools are important but also know the frustration of slipping. If the screw galls it will never torque down properly. Just a few thoughts not criticizing!
Walt
Sure do prefer the Terminal blocks with the Allen Socket head screws -- very positive!
+1
FWIW, Vic
As an aside ... Had been thinking about why to NOT want hex Socket Head screws on the Classic, and similar products.
When terminals are mounted to a PCB, often by soldering, excessive torque might be applied. If the person torqueing them is not using a properly set, and calibrated driver. Any excessive torque might damage the terminal-to-board connection -- cracking solder, or worse.
The cam-out (I think that is what it is called) can help protect against Gorilla Torqueing, by helping to limit maximum torque values.
Just an added thought, FWIW. Vic
Quote from: Vic on July 03, 2016, 03:37:20 PM
As an aside ... Had been thinking about why to NOT want hex Socket Head screws on the Classic, and similar products.
When terminals are mounted to a PCB, often by soldering, excessive torque might be applied. If the person torqueing them is not using a properly set, and calibrated driver. Any excessive torque might damage the terminal-to-board connection -- cracking solder, or worse.
The cam-out (I think that is what it is called) can help protect against Gorilla Torqueing, by helping to limit maximum torque values.
Just an added thought, FWIW. Vic
Good point Vic.
Also easier field serviceability-lack of tools...ect
Still I would preferred allen.
George