Hi,
I finally received my NiFe batteries, have hooked them up, and charging.
I'd like to remove the sensor from the old AGM and put it on a new one.
How do I do that?
I tried twisting it (slightly), in either direction, but it didn't unstick.
I noticed after I had tried that, and when I turn the Classic on I got a:
BAT: Sensor Not Installed
message in Local App. Hope I haven't broken it! :(
Assuming the best, and when I do remove it, how do I attach it to the new battery?
Thanks,
dRdoS7
Hi dRd..,
If you have a thin, flexible Putty Knife, you should be able to carefully work the knife under an edge of the BTS. Do not torque or pull on the cable.
Personally, just use a good quality Painter's tape to attach these sensors to batteries ... have never needed to use the provided double-sided tape.
If there has been very much pulling on the cable, the sensor may have been damaged, and might need to be replaced.
Good Luck, Vic
Hi,
Quote from: Vic on November 16, 2016, 12:22:56 AM
Hi dRd..,
If you have a thin, flexible Putty Knife, you should be able to carefully work the knife under an edge of the BTS. Do not torque or pull on the cable.
Personally, just use a good quality Painter's tape to attach these sensors to batteries ... have never needed to use the provided double-sided tape.
If there has been very much pulling on the cable, the sensor may have been damaged, and might need to be replaced.
Good Luck, Vic
No pulling of cable, just twisting the sensor.
I'll try to remove it as you suggested, and re-attach with some duct tape (RIP Mythbusters).
Thanks,
dRdoS7.
My way with the sensor has been if there is room between some cells to slide it in the middle and lightly pinch it in there . No tape needed. But depends on your set up.
Yeah as Vic said with that double sided tape a shape putty knife or razor blade if needed.
Larry
dRdoS7;
Gorilla [duct] tape works well for attaching a sensor with dried up tape.
If you have no luck removing the sensor, or it is damaged, message me your address and I will send you one of my spares. Having gone batteryless grid tie I will not need the extras I have. New in factory bag even.
Tom
Hi,
Quote from: TomW on November 16, 2016, 12:18:13 PM
dRdoS7;
Gorilla [duct] tape works well for attaching a sensor with dried up tape.
If you have no luck removing the sensor, or it is damaged, message me your address and I will send you one of my spares. Having gone batteryless grid tie I will not need the extras I have. New in factory bag even.
Tom
Appreciate the offer. You realise I'm in Australia?
I priced a BTS on line, AU$45 which is about US$1000 on current exchange rate! ;D
I removed the sensor with a knife last night, it still shows "Sensor Not Installed". I've unplugged it, plugged it back in, no good.
I can't see how I could have broken it, but obviously I did.
I'll message you when I get back home this afternoon.
Just out of interest, anybody make their own sensor?
Thanks,
dRdoS7
Quote from: dRdoS7 on November 16, 2016, 03:43:32 PM
Hi,
Quote from: TomW on November 16, 2016, 12:18:13 PM
dRdoS7;
Gorilla [duct] tape works well for attaching a sensor with dried up tape.
If you have no luck removing the sensor, or it is damaged, message me your address and I will send you one of my spares. Having gone batteryless grid tie I will not need the extras I have. New in factory bag even.
Tom
Appreciate the offer. You realise I'm in Australia?
I priced a BTS on line, AU$45 which is about US$1000 on current exchange rate! ;D
I removed the sensor with a knife last night, it still shows "Sensor Not Installed". I've unplugged it, plugged it back in, no good.
I can't see how I could have broken it, but obviously I did.
I'll message you when I get back home this afternoon.
Just out of interest, anybody make their own sensor?
Thanks,
dRdoS7
Oh, golly, guess I didn't know that bit. Would be $5 anywhere in the US by Priority mail. US mail says $35 to ship 2 ounces there.
If I recall correctly, the Outback sensor is identical. Maybe others, as well.
The BTS is just a thermistor, so it's not that easy to break it, and I doubt you would have hurt the thermistor itself while trying to peel the plastic encapsulation off the battery -- quite possibly your wiring may be shorted or chafed. You could try to diagnose it as follows: do a continuity test across the sensor leads it should not have continuity. If it does have continuity trace down and locate the short. Then, measure resistance and it should have around 20-50 ohms, probably closer to 20 as it's summertime in AUS. As the other person said, the BTS is the same part used across many of the products from the Pacific Northwest-- Magnum, Outback, and Midnite so you may be able to obtain one of these brands locally.
Some are a 20 ohm (blue stick )& some as one of my classics are a 100 ohm style (bolt one battery stud) from Magnum type .
JFI
VT
Hi,
Quote from: TomW on November 16, 2016, 04:38:37 PMOh, golly, guess I didn't know that bit. Would be $5 anywhere in the US by Priority mail. US mail says $35 to ship 2 ounces there.
If I recall correctly, the Outback sensor is identical. Maybe others, as well.
Yes, and I had that very discussion today with my brother-in-law, found it was more expensive (but not always: Amazon were reasonable for DVDs) to ship from US. BIL reckoned UK were the best, I thought China.
Quote from: laszlo on November 16, 2016, 06:46:37 PM
The BTS is just a thermistor, so it's not that easy to break it, and I doubt you would have hurt the thermistor itself while trying to peel the plastic encapsulation off the battery -- quite possibly your wiring may be shorted or chafed.
Batteries are 70kg, so I wasn't watching as I lifted/slid it to one side, but I moved away from any walls, not towards. Got me.
QuoteYou could try to diagnose it as follows: do a continuity test across the sensor leads it should not have continuity. If it does have continuity trace down and locate the short. Then, measure resistance and it should have around 20-50 ohms, probably closer to 20 as it's summertime in AUS.
I'll test it.
QuoteAs the other person said, the BTS is the same part used across many of the products from the Pacific Northwest-- Magnum, Outback, and Midnite so you may be able to obtain one of these brands locally.
Yes, I have a price: $45. Lot of money for a thermistor, a blob of plastic (nice blue though), a length of cable, and a connector. It didn't matter when it was supplied with the Classic, but that's always the way with any spare parts (cars, washing machines, etc.). I think printers and boats are the worst.
I hope not to have to move my new batteries for >10 years, and I won't stick it on this time!
Thanks,
dRdoS7
Only $45? Ludky you. I had mice chew through a thermistor wire (couldn;'t repair it) on my Mitsubishi mini-split. Just the thermistor, which bolted to an aluminum heat sink, was not a "part" (no part number). The "part" was the thermistor and heat sink. So, a couple of dollars worth of aluminum and electronics...Mitsubishi wanted over $800 for it!
Luckily, the north american parts and service peo[le had warranty returned parts around and sent just the thermistor, for free. I just paid shipping costs. So $45 looks like a bargain (unless you can get one for free ;D)
Ralph
Quote from: laszlo on November 16, 2016, 06:46:37 PMYou could try to diagnose it as follows: do a continuity test across the sensor leads it should not have continuity. If it does have continuity trace down and locate the short.
Using an RJ11 socket, I found there was a short. Cut the cable in half, connector end had no short.
Assuming the short is right at the sensor, I'll see if I can source another thermistor, no way will I be able to solder the 2 wires from the good half of the cable onto the sensor. Local electronics store only has choice between 15 and 100 ohm.
Thanks,
dRdoS7
Hi drd..,
First, according to my on-line calculator, AU 45 = 34-ish USD.
The BTS IS a Thermistor. It has a nominal resistance of 10 K Ohms at 25 C, with a Negative Temperature Coefficient.
Believe that for the MN, and probably for the Outback sensors, just measuring across the two outside contacts on the four-pin telephone connector should suffice for measuring its resistance.
I have found a sufficiently close substitute Thermistor -- there are several different curves for 10 K NTC Thermistors, and it is possible that MN specifies one with a tight tolerance. The one that I did find, had a 2% accuracy.
Most of the BTS/RTSes are potted in silicone sealant, inside a cavity formed in the plastic BTS case, as noted above, it could be, that just one of the cable connections is not connected, or, perhaps shorted together.
If one is careful, the pottant could probably be removed, to reveal the possible issue with your BTS.
Later, Vic
drd..,
Our Posts crossed.
Here is some more info on BTSes for MN and Outback systems, several photos are revealing:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/350389/need-more-info-on-making-a-bts-from-earlier-info
http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/350340/building-a-battery-cap-temperature-sensor/p1
FWIW, also, perhaps a neighbor has an unused or retired MN or OB BTS/RTS.
Good Luck, Vic
hello,
i have got an unused temp sensor and i am based in australia. ready to send it to you if you want it.
Hi,
Quote from: Vic on November 17, 2016, 04:04:36 PMThe BTS IS a Thermistor. It has a nominal resistance of 10 K Ohms at 25 C
Jaycar have: Thermistor NTC 5MMDIA 10KR for $1.75.
I'll buy one, use an old POTS cable, and try that. May take a knife to the MNBTS if I can't get to town today, which is unlikely as my wife wants me to put down laminate flooring in the bathroom. I was hoping it would rain, so I couldn't set up the power saw outside!
Quote from: australsolarier on November 17, 2016, 05:22:52 PMi have got an unused temp sensor and i am based in australia. ready to send it to you if you want it.
Thanks for the offer. I'll see how I go making one.
Thanks all,
dRdoS7
Hi drd..,
Making one's own BTS is a bit of an Engineering project.
Choosing among the various curves for seemingly identical 10 K NTC Thermistors IS important.
Having a functioning BTS to use as the reference, and exposing this reference and the candidate Thermistor to the same temperature environment (and allowing some "soak time"), should make the task easier.
Even if the candidate Thermistor has an identical curve, there is still the Tolerance specification, that one needs to consider.
Does the source for the 10 K NTC Thermistor that you are considering, have a specification available? If there is a link to that spec available, I would love to look at it.
After spending some time looking at the details of Thermistors and BTSes that use them, IMO, you would probably be ahead by accepting australsolarier's generous offer to send one to you ... but that's just me.
FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
Hi,
Quote from: laszlo on November 16, 2016, 06:46:37 PMYou could try to diagnose it as follows: do a continuity test across the sensor leads it should not have continuity. If it does have continuity trace down and locate the short. Then, measure resistance and it should have around 20-50 ohms, probably closer to 20 as it's summertime in AUS.
I found a "slight" problem with your instructions, if you look at the picture (thanks Vic), which I saw after I had done as you suggested, you'll notice there are actually 2 shorts already.
http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/354561#Comment_354561
All that aside, I made up a BTS, it was 11 @ 22C. The measurement dropped when I held it with my fingers. Didn't register with the Classic. I disassembled the Classic's BTS, soldered it to the now shortened cable and connector, tested same as the one I made, but still no indication on the Classic. I tested that there was power coming to the themistor, there was.
australsolarier has sent me his spare BTS (thanks AS), I'll be interested to if it works.
Thanks,
dRdoS7
dRd.., Thanks for the reply.
I did participate in several of those wind-sun discussions on the BTS/RTSes.
And, do know that some of these seemingly identical BTSes use paralleled outside conductors, at some point someone in either OB or MN Engineering mentioned that only the outside conductors on the 4-pin telephone were used.
The resistance of a single conductor of that cable is probably negligible, compared to the range of resistance of the Thermistor. Using two paralleled conductors could add reliability to the connection point of the BTS to the device that uses it.
Just for simplicity, mentioned using just the two outside conductors on the phone plug. Either approach should be generally reliable.
FWIW, Vic
Quote from: Vic on November 23, 2016, 06:38:49 PM
dRd.., Thanks for the reply.
I did participate in several of those wind-sun discussions on the BTS/RTSes.
And, do know that some of these seemingly identical BTSes use paralleled outside conductors, at some point someone in either OB or MN Engineering mentioned that only the outside conductors on the 4-pin telephone were used.
The resistance of a single conductor of that cable is probably negligible, compared to the range of resistance of the Thermistor. Using two paralleled conductors could add reliability to the connection point of the BTS to the device that uses it.
Just for simplicity, mentioned using just the two outside conductors on the phone plug. Either approach should be generally reliable.
FWIW, Vic
The point of the first part of my reply was that with instructions, and that there is "
conductivity continuity" inherent in the design, that would cause some-one to cut up a possibly not faulty BTS. The first 2 conductors I tested had
conductivity continuity, so I (wrongly) assumed there was a fault. There was no mention by laszlo of using "outside", or any particular pins for testing. By the time of your post, I'd already cut up my cable. ::)
When I get a chance, I'm going to test the voltage & current to the BTS, just need to find some more 4 wire POTS cable with suitable connectors, and a phone plug/socket combo I can attach a DMM to measure both. I was planning on making an externally accessible socket anyway to save taking the Classic cover off and on again.
Thanks,
dRdoS7
UPDATE: I checked the voltage, without a BTS it's 3.3v, with a BTS it's 1.7v.
Hey Drd,
I did not take a BTS apart before, but my approach was to eliminate the wire having a short first. Then, checking resistance of the thermistor.
With the photo that you attached, it is showing two wires going to each terminal on the thermistor. You are correct, these joined wires would show a short.
Do let us know how you come out with the replacement BTS, as well as the build.
Hi,
Quote from: laszlo on November 28, 2016, 02:03:17 AMI did not take a BTS apart before, but my approach was to eliminate the wire having a short first. Then, checking resistance of the thermistor.
With the photo that you attached, it is showing two wires going to each terminal on the thermistor. You are correct, these joined wires would show a short.
Do let us know how you come out with the replacement BTS, as well as the build.
Teach me to
not act on advice so quickly. ;)
Maybe a lesson to not offer advice, unless you know exactly what the situation is.
Anyway, no batteries were harmed during the making of this epic. The original BTS has survived, just needs some tidying up of the wires: maybe a blob of silicone.
On to the BTS:
BTS arrived yesterday.
This morning, I plugged it in, and not showing up!
I tested it, and it read the same (15.8) as my orig. (disassembled & re-assembled) BTS.
I did a lot of head scratching.
After a while, looking through the Classic settings, and I don't know how/why, I saw the Temp. Comp. setting was "Disabled". I changed that to "-0.5", and the sensor shows up!
Maybe I had set it to "Disabled" when I was swapping over to the NiFe from AGM, changing charge settings, etc., and forgot.
I didn't even realise that "Disabled" also turned off the BTS: it still gets voltage. I would have thought it only turned off the compensation.
Very embarrassing!!
As a bit of info, the BTS I made, when plugged in, was about 4C higher than the 2 Classic BTSs.
Thanks,
dRdoS7
EDIT: I turned on logging of BTS in LA, and it actually displayed a temperature on yesterday's graph, even though it was "Sensor not installed" in LA.
EDIT #2: I forgot to mention in the Classic, under "Temps" it displayed "N/A 25C" when it was "Disabled": A trap for the unwary/unaware.
Quote from: dRdoS7 on November 28, 2016, 05:18:26 PM
Teach me to not act on advice so quickly. ;)
Maybe a lesson to not offer advice, unless you know exactly what the situation is.
Exactly my concern(s) with online advice.
You never know the recipient's skill or knowledge level.
Many small "gotchas" exist in this field that the experienced person just knows to look out for.
Who is at fault when something goes awry? The advisor who was trying to help in good faith?
The advised who blindly followed the advice?
A bit of both, I think.
Many years ago I saw advice on how to fix a windows install on a laptop on an IRC channel. The advisor said type in "deltree C:\". The questioner blipped off of IRC a few seconds later, just as another user posted "DO NOT DO IT. Most of us knew it was a joke. The advised did not. It was a Debian Linux support forum so the question was inappropriate and the advisor was probably being an arse in that case. Everyone with experience knew it was not a fix in the usual sense of the word and would wipe out the install.
A few days later the advised got on the IRC channel and posted a very angry diatribe about having wiped out his install and having to re install and demanded the person who posted it be banned from the IRC channel and the entire internet. Yeah, right!. The advice led to a fix but not what the person wanted.
Just an example of how online advice can be misunderstood and not what you want.
Not taking any sides here but always look before you leap, especially on irreversible actions.
Tom