Fuzzy memory, but not what I think I remember happening:)!
This is in an RV application, 1200W 48V Sharp/Panasonic Panels, Classic 150 and WhzBngJr. Feeding X's 4 Lifeline L16's for 800AH. While on shore power, we have the Magnum MS2812 with AGS/SBC/BMK components. Both of these were set up for Lifeline AGM charge settings.
My BIL decided to roll thru the menu of the Classic150, said he saved nothing, was just navigating thru to see different features and settings. (I was not in the RV when this was going on.)
We've been going from Shore Power to Shore Power Arizona State Park campgrounds the last 5 weeks. I noticed around 9:00AM, that both the BMK Meter on the Magnum, and the MidNite Classic 150 indicated 100% SOC. But while looking at the Classic 150, it also indicated Bulk, and was continuing to put in ~ 24A. I waited 30 min and checked again, still in Bulk mode and ~21A.
What I thought I remembered, was that once the Classic 150/WhzBngJr combo detected 100% SOC, that regardless of the time setting for Bulk/Absorb/Float - that it would jump into Float mode?
No reason I can think of to be pumping in more then Float Amp Hours Charge into the Lifelines when at 100% SOC? Would that not be cooking them more then needed?
I turned of the Classic 150 feeding in power to the Lifelines, until I get a chance to check all of the settings again. (And frankly, remember what I had everything set at, as that folder is of course at home:)!).
Am I worrying about nothing? Will with the Temp Sensor and logic in the Classic 150/WhzBngJr - will it keep from hurting the batteries?
And I suppose just a general question. If I'm going Shore Power to Shore Power RV usage, should I just keep running with the Magnum handling charger duties to maintain things, and then shift to the Solar and Classic 150/WhzBngJr combo when boon docking?
I think I know what I'm trying to ask, just not sure I asked it:)!! What is best practices on having multiple charging systems for a battery bank?
TIA, and best to all,
Smitty
We will most likely need the settings to reason this one out.. since the BIL was 'looking' at them...
WB is correct we would need to know if the WBjr settings are correct for determining SOC. I think people put to much dependency on SOC. If you are on shore power I wouldn't think you would not be drawing the batteries down. But if the Classic hasn't even gotten to Absorb it thinks the batteries are low. In colder weather with temp compensation it can add additional voltage to the settings.
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 15, 2017, 04:31:27 PM
What I thought I remembered, was that once the Classic 150/WhzBngJr combo detected 100% SOC, that regardless of the time setting for Bulk/Absorb/Float - that it would jump into Float mode?
No reason I can think of to be pumping in more then Float Amp Hours Charge into the Lifelines when at 100% SOC? Would that not be cooking them more then needed?
The calculated SOC figure is a guide only.
It is not used to terminate BULK or ABSORB charge stages.
In fact its the opposite that occurs, when ABSORB completes then no matter what the SOC is reported as it will reset to 100%
Its also normal for 100% SOC to be reached before ABSORB terminates. ABSORB will continue until it either times out or EA is reached (depends how you have set termination)
dgd
Thanks for the reply's, and yeah, I'll have to dust off my memory and read the manual again about how to navigate thru and recheck all of the values. It was this time last year that I had help from Stellar Solar (Larry) in Yuma on updating the Classic 150 to work with the WB. That was the last time I've done any changes to the settings.
If the WB portion has been deactivated by accident by my BIL, then I'll reestablish that and just monitor for a few weeks.
I did read a few posts over on the boaters Cruisersforum.com, where two or three members do the KISS and turn off their Solar Controllers while at dock with shore power for extended periods of time. But most of those were with other solar controllers, that probably did not have the option WB brings to the table of interrupting timed Bulk/Absorb cycles when 100% SOC levels are met.
And for full disclosure, I do recall reading on this board when first establishing the settings with the WB, that some had concerns of early charging shut down, and being just a bit under 100% SOC over multiple charge cycles. I'm wondering I brain farted and decided to turn of that feature of WB:)!
Will poke around some on Friday, and see what I can find. May ask my Mother in Law to pull my Classic 150 folder at home, and look at my notes I make as I keep a log of changes along the way.... May owe my BIL a beer:)!!!
Best,
Smitty
the easiest way to check all the settings is via the local app and do screen captures for each page if you don't want to write it all out when moving around... use a cat 5 cable to the laptop used for updating
Well I poked around some, and found the root cause was 'operator error' (in this case, more like memory leak!). I had turned off the WBjr EA functionality. This hurt a bit, as then my brain attempted to break down the barriers of memory loss - on why I had turned off this functionality. I believe I had partial success in remembering, it had to do with a few of my settings, that I wanted to double check when back at home and on my non travel time... Which with more memory leak, I promptly forgot to do:)!
So follow on questions, about a few of my parameters. (Again, this 800AH of X's 4 L16's Lifelines, that are no about four years old.):
>Battery Efficiency - I have set at 95%, due to the age of the batteries. But I believe I was thinking I should bump that up to 96-97%? (Thoughts please!!!)
> Ending Amps - I have set at 15A, which is 1 amp less then 2% of battery bank. But I believe I was thinking I'd set that down to 10-12A range? (My thinking was I'd rather have a bit more charging charging going in then might ideally be required, as opposed to shutting down too early and really not reaching 100% SOC.) (Thoughts please!!!)
And FYI, I've sent Lifeline an email today, suspect closed due to a holiday, asking them for their recommended values for these settings, factoring the four year age of the batteries (Which have never been abused from deep discharge. But may have been charged more then needed with both the Magnum and Classic 150 working back and forth to provide a charge 85% or so of the time we're on Shore Power...)
If it matters, the WBjr and Magnum BMK Meter, are both running off of one single Shunt. Typically the SOC levels are with 1-2% of each other. Which is good to see. (Now, they both could be wrong, but at least they're relatively saying the same thing:)!)
TIA, and best to all,
Smitty
As dgd said - the SOC is just a guide. It has nothing to do with the battery charging. As the batteries get older the efficiency would probably go down not up.
You should find out what ending amps your battery manufacturer specs say , and whatever absorb, float , and temperature compensation settings are too.
Then you will watch the batteries charge and SOC. If it gets to 100% way before the ending amps is reached and it goes from Absorb to Float , then decrease the efficiency number some until it gets closer to being at 100% when it goes from Absorb to Float ( ending amps point) .
Larry
also use the data, graph it out so you can look for the leveling off of the Amps 'IN' to the battery... that will also confirm the correctness of you EA setting...
happy hunting..
Thanks again guys:)! I love a saying I read, probably on this board, that this more of an 'art' then a 'science'. I'm still very much a rookie artist:)!
And I did nod my head on the comment of BE dropping as it get's older, glad I got that concept in my artist's portfolio understood. I meant I would move it up a few percentage points, as I think this bank of AGM's are still healthier then their age should reflect.
I have asked Lifeline for input on this again, and will share if they have any suggestions other then have been shared here. In the meantime, I'll monitor what is going on for awhile, and tweak as needed. We'll be on Shore Power for the balance of the week, but will get some Boon Docking cycles in on this trip too. That will allow me the most meaningful info.
Appreciated the input,
Smitty
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 20, 2017, 01:12:52 PM
So follow on questions, about a few of my parameters. (Again, this 800AH of X's 4 L16's Lifelines, that are no about four years old.):
>Battery Efficiency - I have set at 95%, due to the age of the batteries. But I believe I was thinking I should bump that up to 96-97%? (Thoughts please!!!)
Brand new batteries are not even 100% efficient. You need to put in more AH than you take out to completely charge your batteries. So I would not be bumping up your Efficiency setting to 96 or 97%. You need to determine how many more AH you need to put in. That's determined by when the Amps going into the battery reach a leveling off point (EA). You can graph or look at the WBjr Amps data by exporting the data from running the LA for a day or so. You can't really determine EA by a % of C that is a very rough estimate. You need to look at the actual data of how your batteries preform in you particular system.
Thanks John,
Have not heard back from Lifeline on their recommendations for Battery Efficiency settings. I based my BE 'SWAG' from a few sources:
First, this one from MidNite on the WBjr setup instructions:
"We need to set the Efficiency. Typically on a flooded battery this will be between 94 and 96%. On a sealed battery it can be higher. If there is any question you should shoot for a lower efficiency, not a higher one."
As I read this, the comment about flooded batteries did not seem to match what I had read else where. (Ranges from 85-90% BE on flooded, with most in the 85-87/88% BE range for young flooded batteries.) On AGM's, the ranges I read for young batteries were 94-98%. Lifeline/Concorde had many who started off at 98/99% BE. So I felt I was being conservative, based upon lower being better if not exactly correct. I had chosen 95% BE, but as mentioned thought I might but it up a few % to see how things work for awhile. And pending feedback from Lifeline. (If I don't hear back from them sometime tomorrow, I'll call and talk with their tech support. Figure they're a bit backlogged from the three day weekend.)
Two days running now, I've run the SOC down to ~90% just to see how things work with these settings. Magnum MS2812 charging turned off. Both days, we've gone to float with 2 to 2 1/2 hours from sunrise (Apache Junction area of AZ, with some post storm clear skies?). This is based upon the EA values...
MS2812 has also displayed 100% SOC, usually within 30 mins of the MidNite Classic going into Float, and sometimes Resting (Not always on top of these, as I've been working on a starter problem, which is taking priority.).
Back to the MidNite WBjr instructions, I suspect they meant to say GEL/AGM instead of Wet, when giving those typical BE values.
Time will tell, and I know I'm still learning!!
Smitty
Smitty,
Don't bother with all the guesswork or conjecture over what your battery bank efficiency is or use SOC other than a guide. John (resthome) has outlined what you should do and that will let you arrive at an fairly optimal setting for your bank.
This is a straightforward 'scientific' process and fortunately requires little 'artistic' talent.
The good news is that batteries tend to be quite robust and erring either side of settings by more than a few percent will rarely lead to failure.
The resting battery voltage will tell you a lot about the bank's general state of health.
Find the EA settings then leave the batteries to it, just keeping them clean, terminals clean and an occasional manually started EQ (occasional means many weeks or months, not hours or days)
dgd
dgd - I assume 'EQ' means Equalize, which Lifeline says is OK for their AGM's. About four year old batteries, and I have never equalized them. That being said, I've never seen a performance problem that indicated I should...
In the RV'ing gang forum's that I participate with. Many feel that you should only equalize if you detect a reason to do so.
As I've browsed this forum, with many more members using home Off Grid like battery banks, I see many more conversations about equalizing. I assume, yeah dangerous, that this is due to the heavier usage of the batteries on a regular basis.
As I understand it. Equalizing does consume part of a batteries finite Life Cycles(?). That being said, is their a rule of thumb that says 'Equalize at least "X" amount of the time? (Quarterly, seminar annually, annually, every two years - or, when you detect performance problems with a battery bank?
And yes to regular maintenance of all connections. I have a punch list of items I maintain on a regular basis. I do the wet cell 8D chassis batteries 6 months. I do the house Lifeline batteries once a year. And I have yearly maintenance of cleaning grounds, and major draw connections (like the starter) also on a yearly basis.
Just wondering if I should follow Lifelines advise to wait until I detect a degradation in battery life before equalizing - or just add it into my yearly maintenance schedule. (In the boating community, many seem to do this semi annually, whether they've noticed degradation in battery performance or not. Wonder what this gang thinks?)
Best to all,
Smitty
Each AGM maker seems to have their own ideas about EQ / Equalizing / Freshening or Refreshening charges.. as well as the frequency of doing such...
I have taken the path of having my Float at the high end of the Float range (27.2V) which is at the bottom of their Freshening range.
Seems to be working, ;) even with a bit of operator abuse one long winter... :o
they did recover... year 3 post and happy still.
DGD and Resthome(John) - I first want to assure you that I will be monitoring to see how things go. And will adjust based upon what the monitoring reveals.
I had a good conversation with Lifeline today. Had help from one gent, who on the question about if i should adjust EA values based upon battery age, also went and asked another Lifeline gent for his input.
So for Lifeline, they recommend:
Battery Efficiency be set to 94%.
Ending Amps be set to 4A. (.5A per 100A)
I have set both of those values into play. And will now monitor to see how things behave:)!
Appreciated the help along the way on this...
Smitty
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 22, 2017, 06:03:33 PM
DGD and Resthome(John) - I first want to assure you that I will be monitoring to see how things go. And will adjust based upon what the monitoring reveals.
I had a good conversation with Lifeline today. Had help from one gent, who on the question about if i should adjust EA values based upon battery age, also went and asked another Lifeline gent for his input.
So for Lifeline, they recommend:
Battery Efficiency be set to 94%.
Ending Amps be set to 4A. (.5A per 100A)
I have set both of those values into play. And will now monitor to see how things behave:)!
Appreciated the help along the way on this...
Smitty
What voltages did they recommend for Absorb and Float ?
Larry
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 22, 2017, 06:03:33 PM
DGD and Resthome(John) - I first want to assure you that I will be monitoring to see how things go. And will adjust based upon what the monitoring reveals.
I had a good conversation with Lifeline today. Had help from one gent, who on the question about if i should adjust EA values based upon battery age, also went and asked another Lifeline gent for his input.
So for Lifeline, they recommend:
Battery Efficiency be set to 94%.
Ending Amps be set to 4A. (.5A per 100A)
I have set both of those values into play. And will now monitor to see how things behave:)!
Appreciated the help along the way on this...
Smitty
And what do you have the Absorb Time set at? It needs to be set out a ways so EA can be meet and not go to Float based on the Absorb Timer. It's an either or situation. And at first you want to see how long it will take to get down to that 4A. Then you can reset Absorb Timer a little closer.
Absorb = 14.3
Float = 13.3
Absorb time = 2 1/2 hours
With having the higher EA values until yesterday, we were in Float by 10:30-11:00AM the last few days. (But again, unless I forced it lower by turning of shore power, we've been at 95%+ SOC each AM too.)
This wil leb the first day with EA set to 4A, so will see if this repeats today. If it does, then tonight I'll turn off shore power and we should be to mid 70's percent SOC range in the AM, and see how things go then.
Smitty
They told you same thing I just looked up in their manual - which if you haven't seen it has a lot of good information in it .
http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/manual.pdf
I thought that float voltage seemed low but that is what they say .
Not sure how far you draw your batteries down each night but you probably want to add some time on that Absorb time if you take them down more than 75 percent or so .
Larry
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 23, 2017, 10:02:35 AM
Absorb = 14.3
Float = 13.3
Absorb time = 2 1/2 hours
With having the higher EA values until yesterday, we were in Float by 10:30-11:00AM the last few days. (But again, unless I forced it lower by turning of shore power, we've been at 95%+ SOC each AM too.)
This wil leb the first day with EA set to 4A, so will see if this repeats today. If it does, then tonight I'll turn off shore power and we should be to mid 70's percent SOC range in the AM, and see how things go then.
Smitty
You need to increase the Absorb Time to some where around 4-5hrs. Otherwise you will go to Float based on the timer not EA. Then observe how long it takes to go to float and watch the WBjr Amps on the LA
Thanks Larry and John,
Larry - When boon docking, we are usually at the 75% + or - 5% in the AM. I oversized the battery bank based upon our energy audits, to live on the top 25% of the capacity, with the hope of extending battery life, and having plenty of reserves.
John - The last couple of days, we've been going to Float/Resting with much less then the set Absorb timespan. Wanted to see what happens now that I've set EA down to 4A. Suspect it will be Absorb timespan, as you say, but want to see. Will up that timespan out once I see what happens the next couple of days.
Also note that after the MidNite has done it's thing, I do turn back on the Magnum MS2812 charger, and within 5 minutes it too is in Float mode.
As I have not yet obtained a full grasp of all of the nuisances of battery management, I'm going thru a process that I think I understand. (And learn along the way, where my understanding was wrong.)
And I do have the PDF of the Lifeline info saved. It was rather obvious when they said yesterday '.5 per 100AH's'. I was looking for the term 'Ending Amp' - and they do not specifically say that... But reading the sentences, yep, it is Ending Amp:)!)
Enjoying the process, and thanks again for the input. Spending many hours the last few days reading older posts here, and elsewhere.
Best,
Smitty
You will probably want to set your Magnum charger up the same way as the Classic - the best you can with the settings they have available. It could act a bit differently if it doesn't have temperature compensation and ending amps . Maybe set the Magnum lower voltages so it will do the bulk charging when the batteries are real low and then shut off , and that way it will let the Classic finish everything off. I guess that is an option to consider.
What temperature compensation did they say to use ?
Larry
Hi Larry - Told him I had temp compensation set at the default 1%. He said that would be fine....
On the Magnum. Magnum and MidNite Classic150/WhzBngJr do have some similar settings - but also others that are different. They are set as close as I could match them on values, I do have Battery Efficiency set to Auto on the Magnum. No Ending Amps, but temperature compensation is set the same as the MidNite.
We'll be driving today, so the 200A alternator will do most of the days charging. But have another 7 days at the same place, and will be continued to monitor and adjust.
Best,
Smitty
Quote from: Smitty77 on February 24, 2017, 09:21:36 AM
Hi Larry - Told him I had temp compensation set at the default 1%. He said that would be fine....
Hi Smitty,
I am NOT Larry, but will say, that there are two battery temperature settings in Classic CCs, when using the WBjr. One is the change in battery Capacity verses battery temperature -- the percentage that you mentioned (probably),
AND the one that is very important when using Sealed batteries -- the number of millivolts of compensation per Cell per degree C temperature change with battery temperature. IMO, this was probably what Larry was referring to.
For many/most AGM batteries this value is --3, or --4 mV/Cell/C. And often, this compensation needs to have Limits applied, in the Temp Compensation page in the Charge menu.
Just my opinion. Good Luck, Vic
Vic - Very much appreciate making sure I understood. I probably did not:)!
I will need to some homework on this, and see:
-What I have the values set to now
-And what Lifeline recommends these values should be
Many thanks, and best to you, and all,
Smitty