Hello everyone, I got real excited to hear a midnight classic could control a wind turbine. I am a newbie and still learning here so go easy on me..lol
I know something has to be done with excess power from the turbine. I never herd of the clipper to last week. Then I thought it would be a great item to use. Until I looked at the price! Why is this item so expensive twice that of the controller? And is there a way the Controller can use a regular dump station and work without the clipper? Thanks
It depends on what kind of wind turbine you have. Before the clipper was commercially available, Ryan figured out a crowbar type clipper that would short the phases using the Classic's Aux1 output to keep the voltage from rising above the Classics limit. This seems to work well with Piggot style dual rotor turbines but I cannot comment on other designs. Additionally, you can use a regular PWM type controller and a dump load to keep the battery voltage from getting too high.
I'm doing it this way and it does work. Basically you let the classic run wide open all the time and set the charging parameters higher than the dump setpoint. If you let the Classic go through it's normal bulk/absorb/float routine, it will unload the turbine, and you generally don't want to be flying an unloaded turbine.
Old thread. But I'd like to point out that if you use clipper control on Aux 2 with a SSR it never unloads the turbine. I have all my wind Classics set to the proper charge stage voltages and if the turbine is putting out too much power and it tries to drive the voltage over the charge stage setpoint the clipper comes on and holds the voltage at the proper level.
The other nice thing about that is that when the bank drops into float the clipper comes on and brakes the turbine, basically shutting it down - no sense wearing out a wind turbine running at full bore when the bank is in float and the loads don't require the power from it.
--
Chris
Thanks Chris !
AND !!!... In case the Classic resets or becomes unpowered or crashes for some reason and the Aux output stops
controlling the dump load, the MidNite Clipper has a fail safe circuit that powers itself from the turbine itself to
further protect and keep the turbine voltage from possibly going so high that it smokes the charge controller.
All that circuitry, power supply, SSRs, load resistors, fans, 3 phase rectifier, brake and disconnect switches and
the box to put it in adds up in cost and that's why it isn't cheap. There is a lot of design and "stuff" to
a proper clipper.
boB
Quote from: ChrisOlson on October 11, 2012, 12:29:26 AM
Old thread. But I'd like to point out that if you use clipper control on Aux 2 with a SSR it never unloads the turbine.
Clipper control aux2 appears to be always ON (12v). I use this to keep three normally open relays active and if the Classic powers off for any reason this closes the relays. These then short the 3 phases of my wind turbine bringing it to a halt. I also have small switch in the aux2 path to the relays which acts as a turbine stop switch.
Dgd
Quote from: dgd on October 11, 2012, 07:01:32 PM
Clipper control aux2 appears to be always ON (12v). I use this to keep three normally open relays active and if the Classic powers off for any reason this closes the relays. These then short the 3 phases of my wind turbine bringing it to a halt. I also have small switch in the aux2 path to the relays which acts as a turbine stop switch.
Dgd
Dgd... Which Aux 2 mode are you using ?
Remember that if you are counting on the Aux output to be high (12V) to stop the turbine, then if the Classic should for some reason
get turned off (breaker switched), that 12V Aux output will die to 0 volts.
boB
Quote from: firehawk71 on March 21, 2012, 01:09:02 AM
And is there a way the Controller can use a regular dump station and work without the clipper? Thanks
Easy, Use AUX2 on WASTE NOT active high to control a DC ssr such as Crydom D1D100 to connect a dump load between input + and -
dgd
Quote from: boB on October 11, 2012, 07:25:34 PM
Dgd... Which Aux 2 mode are you using ?
Remember that if you are counting on the Aux output to be high (12V) to stop the turbine, then if the Classic should for some reason
get turned off (breaker switched), that 12V Aux output will die to 0 volts
boB
clipper control, its active high 12v when Classic on and 0v when classic power off.
my relays are open when powered on and closed when no power - hence Classic off = turbine off
This is really a waste of an aux control, it would be good to find a header or testpoint pin that has +12v and use that instead
dgd
Quote from: dgd on October 11, 2012, 09:26:47 PM
clipper control, its active high 12v when Classic on and 0v when classic power off.
my relays are open when powered on and closed when no power - hence Classic off = turbine off
This is really a waste of an aux control, it would be good to find a header or testpoint pin that has +12v and use that instead
dgd
Well, if your relay could use say, 9.5 volts (almost 10V) there is that available from the Slave communications
phone jack if it doesn't draw too much current. There is a pinout of that jack on our web site if you think you
might want to try this.
http://fusion.midnitesolar.com/ClassicCommJacks_Rev-.pdf
It's the one labelled 9V
boB
Enquired from my local midnite dealer today and it takes until March 2013 to get a clipper if ordered today. :'( Back to the home made clipper drawing board..
Dgd
Who is your MidNite Dealer?
I believe we have them in stock?
If not, then it doesn't take long to build them.
Has Midnite considered online ordering and shipping directly to customers?
Supplying product via a distributer and dealer network is just too last century when internet shopping is now so common and popular.
A direct sales option should improve pricing as well since dealer and distributor margins are not necessary (ie two less people clipping the price ticket)
dgd
Quote from: dgd on December 15, 2012, 01:53:26 AM
Has Midnite considered online ordering and shipping directly to customers?
Supplying product via a distributer and dealer network is just too last century when internet shopping is now so common and popular.
A direct sales option should improve pricing as well since dealer and distributor margins are not necessary (ie two less people clipping the price ticket)
dgd
this is general speak by me and if i'm wrong on any of this then the guys at midnite can correct me on it.
if midnite were to do that they would have to maintain a higher price than any or all of the distributors as undercutting a distributor would essentially be bypassing them and all would then only start dealing with the factory. as it is midnite has just a limited number addresses the stuff would go to and in higher quantities. midnite would lack the personnel to do many small orders. the distributors/dealers get the menial task of the small orders. robin is recognizing a failure or breakdown of the distributor/dealer and is offering to help that person out of their jam, but this is not the norm at this point.
Niel, I understand your points.
However I prefer not to pay $, in the form of 'too high' prices, to support dealer and distributor networks. Especially when that network of 'middle men' cannot offer support or advice better than is availabe in this forum.
When I bought my first C150 I was annoyed to find I had paid full price for a unit manufactured 15 months before. Old shelf stock with the disrtibutor :(
If I had bought from MidniteSolar then I would likely have received a more recent 150.
Now when I try to buy a Clipper I have to wait until March 2013 :'(
If I dealt directly with MidniteSolar then via USPS I would have a Clipper in about 14 days.
dgd
DGD
Where are you at that you cant get a clipper before mid March? PM me or Email me (ryan@midnitesolar.com) maybe I can help. I agree with Niel we really cant just sell to the public. But if the Distributor cant help the customer than I will do what I can to help them.
Ryan
I had a similar issue with "not available until.." with an E-panel I ordered from a U.S. distributor. Some story about an aluminum shortage for manufacturing them. Not sure if it was misinformation, incompetence or what but one word to Ryan and the lead time was reduced to days from "unknown".
As far as dealers go, I have not had very good luck with them doing anything beyond middle man the parts and collect a fee. I understand not all dealers are poor but I know of a couple that are horrible.
Perhaps a solution is a factory outlet, bare bones distribution point?
I see the reason for Midnite having dealers but when it impacts customer satisfaction they may be losing customers because of it?
Just my opinion.
Tom
Id like to make a point here in that Midnite through this forum clearly is committed to final end user customer care !
To which we see and live through the good and problems and development of there entire product range. To which I say the end consumer including my self we are very fortunate if not spoilt for such facilities and we do all feel part of a family.
I am a stockists of Midnite Solar Equipment in Europe and have being for the last five years. Recently a new member of Midnite products was established not a million miles away from me, but also a distributor for other items that I want to sell . I visited the new MNS stockist and took a selection of MNS goods that he didnt stock . In short we had a good meeting I now sell some of his products and he hopefully will stock more in the range of MN.
Im basically an end retailer in Europe (a few but growing installer accounts) and a local installer , plus I import direct from Manufactures outside the EU. I would love to go direct to each and every manufacturer for my equipment and cut out the distributor wouldn't we all, but it doesn't work that way, I buy from distributors who handle technical assistance warranty issues and returns. Those problems are the distributors not mine ! However as an importer with Midnite those initial responsibilities are mine and as such I also stock warranty parts and supplies for this purpose. I cant expect a client to return faulty goods across the pond so I deal with it. I do have the luxury of the forum for great technical assistance and referral also ! Plus direct factory assistance.
If as an installer I have a faulty product from my Outback Distributor, I return it to him and he fixes or replaces under warranty. He is not just simply shifting boxes he has responsibilities to undertake on behalf of the manufacturer. He is also my first port of call for technical assistance. Also he holds the stock as do retailers, as do I , Im a very very small fish in a big sea and I have over $35,000 of MNS stockl alone, imagine if Midnite had to have those stock levels multiplied by all its retailers distributors and installers.
If my distributor isnt up to scratch competent helpful and willing then I have and will do in the future contact the manufacturer complain and ask for a competent distributor.
As Tom said there are good and bad distributors,installers retailers and if there are not up up to scratch and you dont know of another the Im sure the manufacturer will find you one.
Also being a Midnite Solar stockist in Europe I sometimes get inquiries from large EU Manufactures of Re equipment in fields Im not completely comfortable with or volumes beyond what I choose to handle or a lot of tech support and development is required to which I can refer them to the guys at Midnite. As long as it stays within the family and a new manufacturer starts using MN gear Im good with that.
Sometimes I may spend many hours over many days replying to a single client regarding a MN product to sell a combiner box a disconnect box or a CC a breaker or a SPD or maybe all or them, you can not expect a Manufacturer to do this, thats why we have manufacturers , distributors, installers , retailers. Each has a role to pay and in that lot we have mostly the good but sometimes the bad and the ugly !
The fact that we have this forum which makes us all feel part of it, is the exception not the rule !
Happy New Year to Everyone :)
Happy new year, Nigel and all !!
Of course, it will be 2013 for Nigel before it will be for us. (let us know if the world happens to end over there first)
We are very happy to have all of you on this forum...
This is a good place to be !
boB
Quote from: nigel on December 30, 2012, 05:01:33 PM
Id like to make a point here in that Midnite through this forum clearly is committed to final end user customer care !
To which we see and live through the good and problems and development of there entire product range. To which I say the end consumer including my self we are very fortunate if not spoilt for such facilities and we do all feel part of a family.
Kudos noted and agreed with ;D
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.. to a single client regarding a MN product to sell a combiner box a disconnect box or a CC a breaker or a SPD or maybe all or them, you can not expect a Manufacturer to do this, thats why we have manufacturers , distributors, installers , retailers. Each has a role to pay and in that lot we have mostly the good but sometimes the bad and the ugly !
This was my main point in an earllier post that the manufacturer is actually providing direct support, as you noted in your first paragraph, via
this excellent forum. So that function is no longer with the distributors and retailers. As for installers the costs of consultancy/advice etc is a component of the installation cost.
IMHO its grossly unfair for end users who do not need or want dealer or distributor support (which often does not exist anyway) to have to pay inflated prices to provide margins for them when they are just box shifters.
Look at the first message in this topic thread. Even boB couldn't jusify that price except to say stuff and metalwork was expensive. Not that expensive methinks ???
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The fact that we have this forum which makes us all feel part of it, is the exception not the rule !
Au conntraire. Google solar suport forums
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Happy New Year to Everyone :)
ditto..
dgd
Quote from: dgd on December 31, 2012, 12:41:36 AM
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The fact that we have this forum which makes us all feel part of it, is the exception not the rule !
Au conntraire. Google solar suport forums
You mean the usenet group, alt.solar.photovoltaic ??
I haven't been on that group in years. We'll see if it still has some decent activity.
boB
Quote from: dgd on December 31, 2012, 12:41:36 AM
Look at the first message in this topic thread. Even boB couldn't jusify that price except to say stuff and metalwork was expensive. Not that expensive methinks ???
The main problem with high pricing overseas is mainly from shipping costs. If we ship more, say, on pallets, and it just
takes space on a ship, it costs much less than shipping individual products.
The price for MidNite products cannot be any less expensive at the moment if we expect to stay in business.
As for Clippers, there is quite a bit more to it than meets the eye. Sure, some people can put together some
parts and make them work, sort of... But trying to make them work with many different turbines and be
reliable also adds to the cost.
We really do try to make products as affordable as possible. Some are way less expensive that the competition,
like PV combiners, and some stuff isn't cheap because it is more complicated.
I invite any of you to come by our shop and I will give you a good tour and try to show you what is involved
in producing our products. Whenever you are in the Seattle area, come on by !
boB
boB,
I don't disagree with anything you say above.
I understand the distributor's view on economy of scale concerning shipping. This is why my dealer says 'indent only' and I have to wait until mid March 2013 to get my Clipper ordered early December 2012.
As an end user of your products I would have preferred to buy from Midnite directly via an online internet store and pay immediately with Paypal.
I have no problems paying USPS, DHL or Fedex shipping costs and looking after duties/taxes on arrival
That way I would have been a happy customer in posession of a Clipper by mid December 2012.
I have to be patient and wait until March, no matter how disagreeable the wait is.. :(
dgd
Quite a few mfgrs will sell directly to the customer, they get around the whole competition with the distributor thing by charging full list price.
My experience has shown that retailers like Northern Arizona wind and sun or the AltE Store will gladly ship out of the country. In reality on a Clipper it would likely ship from MidNite as I do not suspect to many stock them.
Ryan