Hello my name is Ray. I am installing a solar system on my houseboat. I have 2400 watts of panels. I will be using two Classic 150 controllers in parallel to supply a 12 volt 3600 AH battery bank. The houseboat also has a 12.5 KW AC generator with a Trace M2512 inverter / charger. There will be times when both the solar and the generator will be running. Will there be any problems that I should consider with this system such as 3 power inputs to the same battery bank ( back feeding or harming the chargers/inverter.)
THANKS FOR YOU INPUT.
Hi Ray, can you tell us more about the loads that need to be fed, the type of batteries/ make model and the PV specs, and is that an Inver/charger?, does it by-pass?
ray,
i am a little confused as to why you would invest big in every way except the inverter/charger. that is an older modsine inverter/charger and it would be better for you to go with a sine wave inverter/charger maybe like those of the magnum line. there are many other reasons why this proposal isn't good and going 12v with this big of a battery bank is the main one. i'm sure you went 12v because of that inverter and that's your weak link in the whole thing.
i don't know what batteries you are going with, but i'm sure at 12v that it's a nightmare for wiring that many batteries in parallel. it is desirable to have as much of the batteries in series as you can get (48v would probably be the top end for the battery bank voltage) and have fewer of these series strings of batteries in parallel. the wiring must also be set up for equality so keeping wires the same for all strings is paramount. the higher battery voltage may change how you wire the pvs as well, but you may find that 1 classic can handle all of that wattage in pvs at 48v out and it may be borderline for 1 classic at 24v out depending on specifics of the items you have in mind to use. if at a 24v battery voltage you can still use the 2 classics if you've already bought them just to keep them from running at the top end of their ability and would allow for system expandability. at 48v out you already have lots of breathing room and can even expand some with 1 classic. if you have bought 2 then keep one as a spare or see if your retailer will allow the return.
i'll stop here until we get more feedback from you.
Hello Westbranch and Niel (a fellow ham :D) You are right about the older Trace. I am going 12 volts mostly because of it. We had tryed a 48 volt plan but where limited to 1200 watts on a 48 to 12 volt converter so that got scraped. There are 6 Grape solar TS-390 panels 3 each in parellel running at 48 volts and 24 amps back to a Classic 150 output 12 volts at 96 amps on each classic. The batteries are eight Surrette S600 wet cells. 450 AH each set up with 4 batteries for each solar charger. The inverter is wired into the intire eight battery bank( so the eight batteries are electrically interconnected with the solar. The boat will use about 7000 watts per day mostly small to medium loads with the refrig and water pump pulling the heavy loads. Niel your right about the investment, Doing the math I figured it would cost $15 per hour to run the generator. The last owners logs show that is ran 500 hours last year on a rental contract. ...Ray
i seem to be missing something here, is there a need for the 12v that you would've had to convert it down from the 48v?
Niel my guess is it is sort of like a motor home they are highly vested in 12vdc stuff.
Ryan
KB1UAS-AE :)
I'm with Niel, in that it will be far better to upgrade to at least a 24V system using a new TSW inverter.
What equipment other than radio, etc needs 12V?
Do you have heavy 12v loads?
One 12 v battery charged from 24 or 48 should handle small overnight loads.
hth
ps HalfCrazy, if so why the 2500W Inver/charger?
Well again there will also be a lot of AC loads as well from my experience. That said you could do a 48 volt battery and inverter and have a smaller 12 volt battery that is charged from the 48 but the most common set up I run into is 12vdc system with some 120vac loads.
Ryan
Quote from: Ray on April 15, 2012, 07:24:07 PM
The batteries are eight Surrette S600 wet cells. 450 AH each set up with 4 batteries for each solar charger. The inverter is wired into the entire eight battery bank( so the eight batteries are electrically interconnected with the solar.
I don't understand this... how can each controller only supply 4 batteries? Aren't the batteries set up as four parallel strings of two batteries each?
Also, I agree with the others that your system is too large for a 12 volt battery bank. Switch to 24 or 48 volts. Since you have two controllers you could also have two completely independent systems, one at 12 volts and the other at 24 or 48 volts.
--vtMaps
you could still use the converter for any miscellaneous 12v loads, but the ac loads would be accommodated with the higher battery voltage through the sine wave inverter/charger i've recommended you go to. modsine can damage or destroy some items and will cause higher power usage in some as well. items like those with fans, compressors, etc (inductive loads) will be called upon to dissipate upwards of 20% more power due to the wave form and that is in the form of heat.
you would also lessen voltage drop pitfalls with higher voltages.
Hey, I like that M2512 inverter. I designed it in 1991. Of course I still like my bell bottom pants and polyester suit, but my wife won't let me wear them anymore.
robin,
no offense, but it is what it is and it's 21yrs later. sine wave inverters are more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
i liked my bell bottoms too, but i threw them out many moons ago because i wore them out. ;)
be glad she lets you keep them. ::) i'm quite surprised she didn't throw them out. :)
Lots of people with RVs or boats use modified sine wave inverters and swapping them out is no small affair when you just want to go to something other than the 12 VDC system designed into the RV (or boat).
There are very few things that can't run on a modified sine wave inverter. For every time someone had a failure from a modified sine wave inverter, there are probably tens of thousands who didn't.
Have yet to have something fail because of a modified sine wave inverter. That includes computers and related, microwaves, washing machine, reefer, you name it. I wish some of it would go, I could use some new stuff.
Im with Niel on this one, Modified Sinewave will fry lots of things, most modern chargers in phones, and battery based power tools, Bosch, Dewalt that use a ic chip rather than a transformer dont last very long. Thats just the start............ Going to 48v single string battery bank is a much better design for equal charging , maintainance and wiring savings also. Anything that needs 12v could be run off a transformer or smaller separate battery, with a AC charger anything that needs high power 12v will always be cheaper to buy and more efficient in AC like refrigerators . Classics will run at 1/4 of the current less stress easier life, IMHO
Nigel
Anyone have some proof on that? All those people using phones, TVs (yeah, flat panel), microwaves and computers would be screaming. While there are some you hear about, that isn't the reality for most.
I run mobile phone charges, charge cordless drills, lots of computers, tablets, 3 LCD flat panel TVs of different brands, microwave, washing machine and about everything anyone might normally use, no problem. It isn't like I'm the only one either.
Yes, some of the older mod wines with single steps waves but were talking about good quality, not something from the mid 90s.
I'd change my mind if there was more than anecdotal information. Out of hundreds of thousands of RVs and easily that many boats you don't hear of more than a few issues. Lots of talk about someone said but lets talk real world facts.
As for the drills, easier and less expensive to use a different drill than swap out inverters and redo an electrical system.
I get it and if starting out from scratch would go pure sine wave but just to replace because?
Sorry but while the benefits are there, someone already invested heavily in 12 volt is I'll advised to change just because of opinion. The numbers don't add up.
I can say there are just about a million of the old DR inverters out there running homes everyday. With that said I would use pure sine wave for my own house. There seems to be a bit of difference between El cheapo mod sine and inverters like the DR I can say I have let the smoke out of a Dewalt charger on a Xantrex 1000 watt Mod Sine but then I have seen Dewalt chargers plugged into DR inverters.
Not sure what to say about the differences but with today's more affordable Pure Sine wave inverters like the little Outback 1500 watt unit or the smaller Magnum I would lean that way for sure.
I think it's a safety issue. Yes, you can get by on modified sine wave, but why take a chance when sine wave is available and not much more expensive than the old mod sine stuff.
I guess my point is that we often hear things that aren't based on fact but more repeated from some real situations but make the rounds so often they are the so called conventional wisdom. You fact check some of this stuff and find a lot of stories that either have few sources or are mostly just what someone heard.
As part of my research (applies only to my circumstance) I emailed most of the manufacturers of appliances I have and asked if the model of equip I had would run on a modified or quasi sine wave inverter. Not one said there was any reason why not.
Will I someday swap out my mod sine wave inverter for a pure sine wave model? You bet, just as soon as my current inverter fails or my six numbers come in. ;)
My very first Inverter Charger was a DR2424E,bought second hand from Germany. I took it with me to Spain to start re-building my house, I hadnt actually left the UK at this Time. Over the next 6 weeks I learnt the hard way,
It fried a Dewalt 18V XRP Charger on its second battery charge,I had another 2 XRP charger Dewalt units with other cordless kits but I didnt choose to try them,......once burnt learn a lesson.... I cant remember whether it was NAWS forum or Home Power at the time but it was one of them that had the Dewalt Charger on there MOD SINE death list........shockng !!!
It also fried a passive Infra Red switch in minutes, When I tried it with the washing machine the motor threw a fit and the belt came off.
Its 7 years later and those remaining 2 dewalt chargers on Pure sine wave are still alive and kicking
So I did all my charging and washing off a Inverter based Generator. Family came out to see me I forgot to tell them about the charging situation with stuff..... as my old mobile had a Nokia transformer based charger, no problem, they came over pluged in there IC chip type charger surprise surprise it fried that. :(
I had a laptop with a transformer based charger but it ran very hot and the battery never ever showed full.
TV & DVD player all with external transformers all worked OK
Next time I came out it was with a Xantrex SW3024E everthing worked fine for 5 years and still is with its new owner 1 years later . ( Thats only very finely stepped not pure sine wave but as good as). I then went to Outback which is pure sine wave . ( Again the Xantrex SW3024E was brilliant and on some minor points better than the OB but overall OB wins easily especially on bug ingress )
I sold the DR2424E on to a friend with the knowledge of what did and didnt work, he had it for 2 years without incident, but applied the rules of what not to use with it. ( He know has a VFX3048E supplied by me)
As for changing your battery based power tools to something which would work with the DR or any modified unit, I had more cordless Dewalt Kit that a new sine wave inverter charger cost, in fact one Dewalt drill combi new cost more than the secondhand DR did at the time. So it was a no brainer to move up to sinewave. However that DR has passed on to at least its 4th owner still going strong, but with its limitations.
Plus a large percentage of modern washing machines will not work with generators in Europe ! but they do direct from a Quality Sine Wave Inverter Chargers like Outback. Electrical Outlets in Spain all when asked just about this senario most will say that washing machines will not work with generators and will not be guaranteed. Even the basic front loaders now have electronic rather than mechanical cycle switches
So thats just my experience with a DR unit. I wil add it was a secondhand unit in 2005 when I got it I cant remember but I believe it was made late 1990,s so things obviously will have improved somewhat. Im not kicking the DR at all it was and still is bullet proof but
the facts I list are true !
Also I sold a New DR1524E to my Spanish in laws and a DR2424E to my builder about 4-5 years ago.............The Builder is still my builder
(But now has a FX2024E supplied by me) and the inlaws are still our friends and inlaws ( Still with the DR1524E). Both were explained the DR,s limitations and are still happy. With 1/2 Crazy confirming a million plus DR units out there and very little complaints I guess there like me you learn and you only fry things once.
The DR was and is a great unit, great charger and a tolerant generator friendly machine but it is not and never will be friendly to every thing you hook up to it, if it was and its sucessor the TR was even better why do most people prefer Pure Sine Wave ?
Written from real life experience not from so called conventional wisdom !
Nuff said
On a happier note all the fried stuff was relatively new and replaced under warranty. I reattached the washing machine belt. ;D
I didnt tell them I was Modified in anyway :o
Nigel
this certainly isn't just hearsay. don't get me wrong here as a good modsine inverter is good when the items being powered are not adversely affected by it and the old adage that you get what you pay for does roughly hold true.
even if the items being run are not destroyed, the lifespan can be shortened of the device being powered and quite often it will take more power to run something because of the harmonic content of the square wave. this harmonic content is often wasted as it will dissipate in the form of heat if not useable by the appliance. that heat is not dissipated in the inverter, but in the appliance. this i know from the amount of electronics i was taught in school and i don't have to have the education from the school of hard knocks as you requested and nigel obliged.
also, it is noteworthy that sine wave inverters are just modsine inverters with a thd (total harmonic distortion) of less than 5%, but that distinction is important. that is the same requirement your local utility has on the quality of its waveform. many of today's sine wave inverters do far better in the thd area than the local utilities do.
quite some time back i believe mike90045 wanted to improve the output of his modsine inverter and i suggested he use some capacitors to short the harmonics to ground and he noted the caps were getting warm from doing their job. not too sure how much he did improve the inverter's operation though. i think he got leery of the caps heating up and took them out of line, but the caps dissipated heat that was destined for the load to dissipate.
Don't get me wrong, I've not said nor implied sine wave inverters aren't better than mod sine, far from it. If the equipment calls for sine wave, by all means. If you are replacing equipment, okay too.
What I see on forums so often though, is some soul wanting to improve what they have, not changing out entire electrical systems and one of the first things that comes out is dump the mod sine inverter, change to sine wave, dump the 12 volt and go to 24 or 48 volt and it goes from there. Missed is the basic question, how can the guy improve what he has (in most cases the request is using what they have and maybe looking at configuration etc). I bet more than a few just go off shaking their heads in frustration. This comes from someone known to re-design almost everything just because...
Peace
sometimes these are the only ways to make the improvements unless you can modify inverters to do better than they do. i mentioned filtering the modsine waveform, but that will only work to a small degree and it will heat up those filter components and will be a constant load to the inverter. sometimes there's no substitute for having the right components in the first place.
All I can add is that I managed to keep the magic smoke in (almost) my Dewalt charger. I happened to be standing over it when tat distinctive hot wire smell started.. pulled the plug and found 6 months later that that 18V battery would NOT keep a charge and the charger (twinned to several others) does not charge up my other 12, 14 and 18V batteries. I now ONLY use them on a TSW inverter. Btw the MSW is a Vector MAXX soft start(?) 400W 3 years young.
My thoughts, MSW and chargers (non transformer) do not mix, and our laptop transformer ran hotter than when on grid... MSW = good for lights etc
YMMV
PS I see niel got in ahead of me...
Tinman people come to forums to be advised and learn, or people come to share there knowledge freely 8).
I for one dont know every thing.... thats why I post and listen !!!!!, I'm encouragingly corrected many many times by my peers!
A quality I admire in myself ;D
I very recently questioned several responses I didnt like on NAWS and came here for a second opinion ,,,, because I have that right as you also have ! I was suitably advise with explanations to steer me back on track, I hope as I get older my replies to things I disagree with are more toned, Niel , Robin. bob ,Vic and many others know where I coming from I can and have been waspy in the past ,
If King Kanute came to the forum with a problem say an ebbing tide... listened to advice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then went back to his chair at the beach shaking his head....
What did he learn ?
But Peace is a good good word
Nigel (newby) just a number :P
I recently got a small portable DS0201 oscilloscope -- so I went around and checked waveforms on my old inverters and my Magnasine. It was quite an eye opener!
Lazlo, were you able to capture some of the wave results?