If I am understanding things correctly, the Classic will work like other MPPT controllers from the standpoint that when the battery is fully charged, then the Classic will shut off power to the battery bank. In the case of wind, then this means that the wind turbine would be disconnected and freewheeling (unless a Clipper type device applies the brakes).
In my set up, I have a separate diversion controller that I use to divert power to an auxillary 80 gal hot water heater (pre-heater) which feeds into my primary hot water heater. I've got around 90 amps @ 48V diversion load in DC hot water heating elements. I use a diversion controller made by a small company known as Coleman Air. It's an OK controller, but I wouldn't recommend it for most people. I chose it because it can handle bigger loads and because it was easy to integrate a thermostat into the circuit, so I can have the diversion load shut down when the 80 gal hot water heater reached 125F.
Anyway, the way that I am envisioning it is that I would have a Classic set up to charge my battery bank, and I would use my diversion controller to actually regulate battery bank voltage. That way, the Classic is always ON and providing efficient MPPT power conversion of incoming wind power. I would have the voltage set points such that when the battery bank voltage is nearly "full", then the diversion controller would start diverting power to the hot water heater before the Classic shuts down charging.
I see it sort of like a bathtub. :) The tub is the battery bank. The Classic is like the spout feeding water into the tub. My diversion controller is like a valve that controls the drain on the tub. When the water level in the tub approaches full, the diversion controller begins draining to keep the bathtub level constant. This prevents the water level from getting too high which would trigger the Classic to shut off charging.
In effect, I'm trying to keep my battery bank in float mode and utilize incoming power to heat hot water. It's the way I've had my system set up for the past year and it has worked quite well. I currently have a 125F thermostat on my auxillary 80 gal hot water heater. If the hot water heater trips the 125F thermostat, then wind power is then dumped to air heating resistors/elements. I've never had this happen because we use a lot of hot water. I've got a family of 9 (7 kiddos) and we do a LOT of dishes, laundry, showers/baths, etc... The only time I could even imagine having the hot water heater thermostat trip is if the wind was roaring for days and perhaps then the hot water heater would reach max temp during the night. If the wind was really sustained, I could also use some extra power by running some loads on my inverter.
All that to say... am I thinking about this correctly? Will the Classic work well with this separate diversion controller that keeps "draining" power from the battery bank, so that the Classic is always on and the wind turbine is always connected and loaded?
Edward
Hi Ed, I know you have 'too much of a good thing ' frequently, but what happens when there is NO wind???
Eric
Hi Eric,
I live out in the boonies, but we're still on grid. I use the alternative power to help reduce our power bill some and also to provide a back up means of power for my family. This time of year is fairly calm. When Spring comes, then things will really start to blow around here for an extended time. Winter is usually the calmest time of year around here apart from an occasional wind storm. That's why I'm trying to get everything working the way I want it now, before the big winds come.
Thankfully, we've got reasonably price hydro power because of the dams. Although, they keep raising the rates and plan to continue to do so over the next few years. The power rates around here are so reasonable that big names like Microsoft and others are building huge datacenters, because the hydro power is so "cheap".
Edward
Sorry about that, what I meant was what will happen to the batteries if there is no wind and the batteries go to 0% SoC? what is your fail safe?
Eric
OK, I see. I have the Coleman Air diversion controller set to only dump when battery bank voltage reaches around 54V. So, the incoming wind power basically just keeps the batteries in float mode, and most power is diverted to hot water heating. The batteries are never really drawn down unless grid power goes down and I start running off battery power. If we don't have wind for a while, I occasionally turn on a 50A Argus rectifier/charger to try to keep the batteries topped up.
If I run with the big APC Matrix 5000 UPS for split phase 120/240 power, then I can set the low voltage cut off. My smaller Exeltech XP1100 has the fixed low battery cut off.
Edward
I must not be understanding something here(most often the case)
I was under the assumption the classic would charge mppt and also regulate voltage to a dump load, I did not realize I would need a separate diversion controller?
I also cant understand how the clipper holds down the turbine without making huge heat in the stator if I wanted to go this route instead?
Edward, why would you not reccomend the coleman to most people, just curious, they seem very reasonably priced, and one model will handle 440 amps??
cdog,
The reason I am not real fond of the Coleman Air controller is that it's sample rate is too slow (in my opinion).
Depending on the battery voltage, the battery voltage is sampled once every 5 seconds or once every 1 second. When battery voltage climbs and gets closer to trip point, the controller starts sampling once per second. In my situation, if the wind is roaring and the turbine is cranking out higher amps (especially during a gust), the controller will be too slow to respond quick enough. As a result, it overshoots the trip point much of the time.
In other words, when you set the trip point, it's not what you end up getting. "What you see is not what you get." Let's say I set the trip point of the controller to 54.0V (using a precise power supply), then the voltage might shoot up to 59V before the controller ever knows what's going on. This happens frequently during strong wind gusts. The problems with this is that then my secondary dump load is triggered inadvertently and the power goes to heat air. The way I dealt with this is that I experimented with different trip point voltage settings until the wind gusts would not trigger my secondary dump load - except in very strong gusts. As a result, I have to set the trip point so low that the batteries don't really stay at the float voltage that I want.
Another issue for me is when it diverts power, then the battery is drawn down enough that when the diversion ends, the battery voltage is low enough that the controller goes back to the 5 seconds sample rate. Then a new wind gust comes and the controller is in "duh" mode and can't respond. The Coleman controller is just too slow to respond. Maybe for a lot of other people, it wouldn't matter. But, the way I have my system set up, it matters. I've got 2 stage diversion set up. Primary is hot water heating. Secondary is to heat air. I don't like the secondary diversion being tripped constantly when it's not supposed to be tripped.
I've tried to discuss this with the creator/owner of the controller, but he doesn't want to change anything. He said the 5 second sample rate is necessary so that a battery state of charge LED can blink. In other words, he said that the IC can't sample battery voltage any more often than every 5 seconds when the SOC LED is blinking. In my opinion, something should be changed so the controller can do better than sample once every 5 seconds!
It might be a good choice for some people, but not ideal for my situation. I have strongly considered switching over to 2 Morningstar TS-60 controllers set up as diversion controllers, but there are some issues for me that I won't go into now (because this is too long already). :) I've got around 97A @ 48V worth of diversion load right now. Actually, after writing all this, it makes me more motivated to come up with another solution!
Edward
Quote from: cdog on January 12, 2011, 06:02:09 PM
I also cant understand how the clipper holds down the turbine without making huge heat in the stator if I wanted to go this route instead?
Some turbines will have a problem with this. Normally this is only a problem is the wind speed is high and you completely short the turbine and it does not slow down. THEN you can have a big problem.
With a real AC clipper connected, we can tell if the turbine slowed down and in fact we don't have to completely short it... We can semi-short it and vary its speed. Sometimes we will be able to slow it down enough where it can eventually stop without burning up its stator. Detecting current and RPM is a big plus for a real clipper.
PWM and tachometer are the magic words here.
boB
So it would seem that if you don't have a use for the diversion power, get a clipper, if you do, get a pwm diversion controller?
Could one of the aux spaces on the classic be used to operate a large solid state relay and divert power this way?
Quote from: cdog on January 12, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Could one of the aux spaces on the classic be used to operate a large solid state relay and divert power this way?
Yes. The problem can be that some people will not know how much of a load to attach and then there could be other problems, like diversion not working and hurting things. This is why the Clipper will have its own loads.
Theoretically, of course, one could add their own diversion loads and be just fine... Don't count on heating water necessarily though. Water eventually gets hot and the water can either boil away or the thermostat shut off the load.
boB
Quote from: boB on January 12, 2011, 10:44:47 PM
Don't count on heating water necessarily though. Water eventually gets hot and the water can either boil away or the thermostat shut off the load.
boB
Very true. That's why I set my system up so if the 80 gallon hot water heater (pre-heater to my main household water heater) hits 125F, then the thermostat turns off my primary diversion load. When that happens, then the secondary diversion load comes into play and air is heated. This 2 stage diversion is important for safety/redundancy. In my unique situation, because I have 9 people in my household, I use a tremendous amount of hot water (baths, showers, dishes, laundry). So, I've never had the 80 gal hot water heater reach 125F and trip off. It could happen though given the right circumstances. I could imagine a night of roaring wind and everyone's asleep and no water movement through water heaters... eventually it can/will hit 125F in that 80 gal pre-heater.
Edward
Would it be better to divert after the rectifiers or get a 3 phase str and divert the ac?
Would this change what the classic ''sees'' to do, the load being a resistor of some sort, instead of the battery bank?
Quote from: cdog on January 13, 2011, 01:52:45 PM
Would it be better to divert after the rectifiers or get a 3 phase str and divert the ac?
Would this change what the classic ''sees'' to do, the load being a resistor of some sort, instead of the battery bank?
Unless it is a properly controlled DC clipper controlled by our network, you will want to divert on the AC side of the rectifiers.
This method basically de-couples the diversion from the actual DC input of the Classic so that the Classic just sees that DC input voltage that it is operating at to want to be lower. That's because the AC side is not producing less power (if any) at the rectified voltage appearing at the input of the Classic.
(I hope I didn't mess up that description)
boB
Yes, I follow...
I am curious though, if the mill is spinning fast because of the classic, making high volts,low amps and we instantly take the power from the ac side and send it to a different load than the classic, like an air heater, will this make the stator instantly see high amps as if it were direct coupled to a battery bank and little or no furling?
Would the turbine slow down fast enough to keep from frying the stator?
I've got the major pieces ordered for my new wind turbine control system including a Classic 150. It'll take a while for all the pieces to arrive here. I still need to order some smaller odds and ends like breakers and such. I ordered the Crydom D53TP50D 3 phase SSR for diverting wild AC to a 3 phase heater dump load. This will be my "Clipper" to control voltage going into the Classic. I ordered the Crydom D1D100 SSR to control diversion to hot water heater. I've ordered a very big aluminum heat sink that I will set up with fins vertical to provide "chimney" convection cooling effect for the 2 SSR's and also the new 3 phase bridge rectifier.
I decided to go overboard on the rectifier because cost difference was minimal. I went with a Powersem (German made) PSD 192/18 which is rated at 248A and 1800V. Overkill for what I need, but the price was right and I'd rather have a big factor of safety on the rectifier. I don't want a rectifier to fail and end up with a freewheeling turbine. The heat sink is 10" long x 6" wide x 2" tall fins, so it should provide plenty of cooling for the SSR's and bridge rectifier.
(http://www.semimart.net/shop/images/product_images/popup_images/199_0.jpg)
http://www.powersem.net/Three_Phase_Bridges/Standard_Diodes/Baseline/PSD%20192.pdf (http://www.powersem.net/Three_Phase_Bridges/Standard_Diodes/Baseline/PSD%20192.pdf)
Slowly getting the pieces of the puzzle collected...
Edward
Quote from: cdog on January 16, 2011, 04:03:19 PM
Yes, I follow...
I am curious though, if the mill is spinning fast because of the classic, making high volts,low amps and we instantly take the power from the ac side and send it to a different load than the classic, like an air heater, will this make the stator instantly see high amps as if it were direct coupled to a battery bank and little or no furling?
Would the turbine slow down fast enough to keep from frying the stator?
Yes as long as the turbine slowed down within a short period of time I would say a minute? it would take a while to burn the stator our and the very short (time wise) period it would spend at elevated amperage should not even warm the stator.
Thanks guys, Edward, what will you be using for a voltage switch to activate the 3phase ssr?
cdog,
The AUX1 output on the Classic will control the Crydom 3 phase SSR directly. That's the beauty of a solid state relay... requires very little power to control (unlike a convetional electromechanical relay with large coil to energize).
On the Crydom D53TP50D SSR, it only consumes 10mA @ 5V to control the SSR. At the higher voltage of the Classic (closer to 15V, I believe boB mentioned), it will use a little more power, but it will still be very low power consumption.
It's nice to be able to control the SSR's directly off the Classic's AUX ports.
Edward
Thanks for all the info, sounds like the very same route I would like to go, keep us updated please...
Quote from: cdog on January 13, 2011, 01:52:45 PM
Would it be better to divert after the rectifiers or get a 3 phase str and divert the ac?
Would this change what the classic ''sees'' to do, the load being a resistor of some sort, instead of the battery bank?
It is best if you don't short out the input of the Classic or almost any other MPPT Controller.
If you are going to short things, even momentarily, you will want to do that with the AC side.
Loading the DC side just to keep the voltage from exceeding a pre-set voltage (a "clipper") is one thing.... Directly shorting the DC side can break things.
Also, the shorting mechanism (triacs, relays, FETs, etc.) can break because you would be shorting out fully charged up high voltage capacitors which store a lot of energy. That is usually reason enough not to short the DC side.
boB
how about a blocking diode before input to the classic input dc side of course the write ratings for if the classic goes to sleep or hyper voc ? yes it will be fun when the clipper get here too Did use a diversion morningstar controller on a wisper 500 but then again it was only for 48 voltbank have to make a hyper deversion controller for the modle of the classic thats when the clipper will be good as then it wont bleed of the bank all the time. What is the diference in the clipper and clipper jr and can you order it without the box rectifiers and resistors ? so it looks like a classic only it brother clipper cheers Mike
Quote from: cdog on January 21, 2011, 09:05:50 PM
Thanks for all the info, sounds like the very same route I would like to go, keep us updated please...
Just a small update. Most of the pieces have arrived here. The Powersem rectifier arrived from Germany. The Crydom D53TP50D 3 phase SSR arrived from Hong Kong. The Crydom D1D100 DC SSR arrived already. I received the big heat sink. Cable, cable lugs, breakers have come. Today, I received a Midnite MNEDC Quad circuit breaker box. I'm still waiting for the Classic 150 that I have on order, but I'm happy to wait. I know that Midnite is busy making software updates and getting Classics out the door. Personally, I'd rather wait a bit longer and let the software get tweaked a little more. Besides, we are in a calm wind period now (which is typical of winter). And even after the Classic 150 arrives, it'll take me a little while to rework my wind turbine system.
One thing I've learned over the years, that sometimes the process of doing a project can bring as much (if not more) enjoyment as the final result. So, I'm not going to burn myself out trying to get it all set up immediately the day I receive my Classic. I've done that many times in the past where I've rushed to finish something and as a result didn't enjoy the process. I've done stuff like pull multiple all nighters to get a project done. One time, I was working on a bigger car project, and I pulled 7 all nighters in a 2 week period. I'd skip sleep for a couple nights in a row and then crash the 3rd night... pull another all nighter, then sleep the next night.... I was so eager to get the project done and I was determined to not take away time from family, so I was taking away the time from sleep. Really caught up with me. By the time I was finished, I was so wiped out that I didn't even enjoy the end result. Also ended up going the doctor because my heart was doing funky things (irregular beating). When the doctor found out how little I had slept, they said it was no wonder! ::) As I've gotten older, I'm learning to enjoy the journey too. Now I tend to do projects in a way that doesn't take away too much time from important things like family, church, Bible study, and sleep too. Although, I still tend to be a night owl. Speaking of which... I better get off the computer soon. :)
Anyway, I look forward to handing control of my wind turbine system over to a Classic, but I plan to enjoy the process of making the changes once my Classic arrives. I even enjoyed all the learning and research it took to determine which components to order and how to set it up. Always something new to learn.
It's all part of the fun.
Edward
i hear you on the process thing, but more importantly, one doesn't want to overlook something by rushing through it. now the classic is programmable so it doesn't matter if you've already received one or wait 3 months. i will soon be connecting up my classic and i haven't really looked at how to go about the updates as of yet as i only skimmed that part before. i guess i should do some more reading huh?
as to when you have it up and running let us know your observations and results and put it both here and on naws as this is setting a new standard for wind and not just solar.
Quote from: niel on January 30, 2011, 12:13:55 PM
i will soon be connecting up my classic and i haven't really looked at how to go about the updates as of yet as i only skimmed that part before. i guess i should do some more reading huh?
For the moment, here is a fuzzy, but hopefully informative video on how to update your code using USB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKhDxoBcCXw
There is also an Ethernet method of updating code, but we haven't released this yet and it doesn't update the MNGP Remote yet anyway.
boB
I agree Neil. No sense to rush through and overlook something. I'd be happy to have my Classic already, but others have ordered before me so I'll have to wait my turn.
That's a helpful video, boB. Will it only work with XP Pro (not XP Home)?
I liked the Finish.... Or Swedish... humor embedded in the video.
Edward
boB,
i don't think that's quite as simple as i was under the impression it was to be and i'm not sure if it's the same on vista or not, but i'd like the ethernet route if that is simpler. now is there a way to know ahead of time if one would have the latest or not without going through the procedure?
Quote from: keyturbocars on January 30, 2011, 11:13:06 PM
I agree Neil. No sense to rush through and overlook something. I'd be happy to have my Classic already, but others have ordered before me so I'll have to wait my turn.
That's a helpful video, boB. Will it only work with XP Pro (not XP Home)?
I liked the Finish.... Or Swedish... humor embedded in the video.
Edward
Thanks Edward ! It should work fine with XP home as well however getting to the
control panel may be a different path than what was shown in the video. In fact,
maybe you could see if you can find control panel, system, hardware on your XP.
If you can get that far, then I think it'll be an easy one.
boB
Quote from: niel on January 30, 2011, 11:16:19 PM
boB,
i don't think that's quite as simple as i was under the impression it was to be and i'm not sure if it's the same on vista or not, but i'd like the ethernet route if that is simpler. now is there a way to know ahead of time if one would have the latest or not without going through the procedure?
It is about as easy as it can get except for the first time where you change the com port. After that, you can download new code without having to go to control panel.
Vista and win 7 will be similar.
As far as turning off the Classic and hitting the button, that is because the Classic looks for new code when it powers up.
The Ethernet method doesn't require that power up.
I do like having two methods of uploading code though.
boB
boB,
ok i'll cross that bridge when i get to it for the updating, but how does one know if there is a newer update for it or not? in other words we'd need to know the version in the classic (and how found) and the latest version being offered online otherwise one could find themselves guessing if they need to download or not.
Quote from: boB on January 30, 2011, 11:21:14 PM
Thanks Edward ! It should work fine with XP home as well however getting to the
control panel may be a different path than what was shown in the video. In fact,
maybe you could see if you can find control panel, system, hardware on your XP.
If you can get that far, then I think it'll be an easy one.
boB
Sounds good boB. Since I posted the question about XP Home, I found out that one of my old IBM Thinkpad T42P laptops that the kids use has XP Pro on it.
What type of USB cable will I ned to purchase for my Classic? Is that a standard USB cable that can be purchased in longer lengths?
My wind control system is in my utility room which is also my "office". I'll have my Classic mounted probably within 8 feet of my desk, so it would be easy to just run a longer USB cable to a USB port on the front of my tower. I can always just bring down the Thinkpad with XP Pro too, and use a standard length USB cord. Once the ethernet option is available, then I'll be able to tap right in to my wireless router that is also in my office.
Edward
edward,
it comes with a usb cable so you don't have to buy one. ;D
That's good that is comes with the USB cable. I wonder if the cable end that plugs into the Classic is a standard design so that longer USB cables can be purchased.
Edward
It is a standard mini USB on that end and we give you a 10 or 11 foot cable. I don't know if you can go much longer with USB boB may chime in on that.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 31, 2011, 01:22:30 PM
It is a standard mini USB on that end and we give you a 10 or 11 foot cable. I don't know if you can go much longer with USB boB may chime in on that.
This L O N G cable that we give out works great for what they call "Full Speed" USB which is 12 MHz,
but it doesn't work so well with "High Speed" Hundreds of MHz things like external disk drives.
boB
Oh, I didn't realize it came with cable that long! I figured it was just a typical 3 foot cable or something like that.
Sounds great!
Edward
Edward,
Thanks and please post your observations. We're very interested in the overall approach, that is is having the dump usually doing something useful. We've been successfully diverting "opportunity load" as it is explored more here (this article is mainly focused on PV):
http://outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2865&hilit=electron&start=25
One thought - our tank is undersized, but a strategy that has worrked well for us is to actually overheat the water - our tanks allows 170 degF - and then drop the temp via a mixing valve out of the preheat tank. If the source is free, a Btu saved is a Btu earned...
~kitestrings
My goodness !! I just looked at the prices of those Crydom DC (FET) optically
isolated SSRs and they're almost $90 !! I found one for just less than $90.
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=57K2970&CMP=AFC-OP&CMP=AFC-OP
And that's only a 10 Amp 500V part. Makes $1000.00 or more sound cheap
for a real Clipper made to work with this stuff (on the wind turbine side).
Anybody found any cheaper, off the shelf, SSRs ??
boB
boB,
I've used these with good results. I don't know how wide the range of other spec's/configurations they have. For ours the price was about a third. No affiliation (or background check).
~kitestrings
Quote from: boB on February 07, 2011, 08:54:24 PM
My goodness !! I just looked at the prices of those Crydom DC (FET) optically
isolated SSRs and they're almost $90 !! I found one for just less than $90.
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=57K2970&CMP=AFC-OP&CMP=AFC-OP
And that's only a 10 Amp 500V part. Makes $1000.00 or more sound cheap
for a real Clipper made to work with this stuff (on the wind turbine side).
Anybody found any cheaper, off the shelf, SSRs ??
boB
boB,
I used a Crydom D1D100 for my system.
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=04R7287&CMP=AFC-GB100000001 (http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=04R7287&CMP=AFC-GB100000001)
http://us.element-14.com/crydom/d1d100/ssr-panel-mount-100vdc-32vdc-100a/dp/04R7287?whydiditmatch=rel_default&matchedProduct=d1d100&Ntt=d1d100 (http://us.element-14.com/crydom/d1d100/ssr-panel-mount-100vdc-32vdc-100a/dp/04R7287?whydiditmatch=rel_default&matchedProduct=d1d100&Ntt=d1d100)
I ordered from Element 14 because they had free shipping. From what I can see, Newark and Element 14 are the same company with different internet storefronts. For 100A capacity, the Crydom D1D100 seemed reasonable at $126. It has a 100VDC rating, but that's fine for what I'm going to do to divert off the battery side of the Classic, so the SSR will not see any more than about 60VDC anyway.
Edward
Edward, boB,
Sorry I omitted the link. Here's what we've used:
http://www.futurlec.com/RelSS.shtml
~kitestrings
Quote from: kitestrings on February 07, 2011, 04:31:48 PM
Edward,
Thanks and please post your observations. We're very interested in the overall approach, that is is having the dump usually doing something useful. We've been successfully diverting "opportunity load" as it is explored more here (this article is mainly focused on PV):
http://outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2865&hilit=electron&start=25
One thought - our tank is undersized, but a strategy that has worrked well for us is to actually overheat the water - our tanks allows 170 degF - and then drop the temp via a mixing valve out of the preheat tank. If the source is free, a Btu saved is a Btu earned...
~kitestrings
Hello kitestrings,
I see you are also like minded in harvesting every bit of power. I think the DC water heating idea is good because there are no losses in going from DC to AC. By diverting the DC power directly, then there is one less step of conversion losses.
I will plan to keep you updated on how things go. I am still waiting for my Classic 150 to arrive. Midnite was waiting on a shipment of circuit boards and then they were going to crank out some more 150's. Should be soon - within the next 1-2 weeks from what I've heard.
Those SSR's you linked to are priced very low. They look like a Chinese copy of the Crydom SSRs. How long have you been using those and have they been reliable?
I ended up buying a 100A Crydom D1D100 and I expect that it will be very reliable as long as I have a good heat sink (which I also have).
I scanned through that discussion on the Outback forum. What sort of mixing valve are you using? Recently, I ended up changing the thermostat on my 80 gal water pre-heater from 125F to 135F to increase my hot water storage capacity, but I didn't want to go too much higher because I have young children that could get scalded. The mixer valve would take care of that - good idea.
By the way, I use these Supco snap disc thermostats on my DC water heater:
http://www.drillspot.com/products/451421/Supco_L135_Thermostat (http://www.drillspot.com/products/451421/Supco_L135_Thermostat)
Edward
Kitestrings, is this the item you referred to?
SPST 0-200Vdc 40A DC Solid State Relay
just following your setup.
e
Quote from: kitestrings on February 08, 2011, 01:42:56 PM
Edward, boB,
Sorry I omitted the link. Here's what we've used:
http://www.futurlec.com/RelSS.shtml
~kitestrings
OK, I see the SSRDC200V40A SPST 0-200Vdc 40A DC Solid State Relay for $27
I was looking at the Crydoms and their data sheet shows a 400V and 500 V DC optically isolated version but when I go to the BUY page, it is not there. Maybe they couldn't make it work correctly or had other issues ?
And Futurlec doesn't have anything over 200V ? For the wind side of things, it must be higher than, say, 300 Volts. I prefer 500V.
Anybody know what's going on ?
Thanks,
boB
e,
yes
Edward,
The relays arrived in timely fashion from Bangkok. So far, Ive had no problems operating since spring of 2009.
I used a stock Marathon tank that I bought in a silient auction. Changed the port bushings to accomodate the NPT thread of the DC elements. I use the stock thermosats to actuate the SSR's; they in turn control the elements. I don't know how to add photos - new to this board - but you can see some pics, and a schematic here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,130053.html
I have (just) three under the age of 5. You got a troop! Gotta lov'em. The mixing valve is a Honeywell. Very simple, very accurate temp control. I have the input to my Tagaki heater set about 110 degF. It gives us nearly twice (30,000 Btus) the storage for the size.
It just seems like there are a lot of useful potential dumps (water heating, compressed air for the shop, charging a Leaf - maybe someday).
~kitestrings
boB,
You must be trying to come up with a way to control/brake a DC wind turbine. I did some quick scanning around to see what I could come up with, but you are right and the options are limited and not cheap for DC SSR's at that higher voltage range.
I saw these Crydom SSC series which are IGBT (you probably saw these already):
http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/s_sc.pdf (http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/s_sc.pdf)
Best price I found for the SSC1000-25-12 (1000VDC, 25A, 12VDC control) version was $157.
http://www.todaycomponents.com/crydom-ssc1000-25-12-solid-state-relay.html (http://www.todaycomponents.com/crydom-ssc1000-25-12-solid-state-relay.html)
Edward
kitestrings,
Yes, we have a troop around here with the 7 young children running around! You've got your hands full too with 3 children under the age of 5 years old. They are a handful (and a blessing)!
You live in a beautiful area. Nice job on your water heater setup. The more I think about the water mixer idea, the more I think what a great idea it is! It could help my 80 gallon water heater behave like a much bigger tank without the added expense of a larger water heater.
I could see your water mixer in the one picture, but I could not see clearly how the pipes were hooked up. Did you just connect it between the incoming cold pipe and outgoing hot pipe on top of your Marathon water heater? I was wondering if it would be necessary to bring in a separate cold water line to make things work properly.
Edward
I think it is a Honeywell AM-1 ($50-60). Hard to tell without the insulation, but you just "T" off the incoming cold line to the valve. Three connections: hot, cold & mixed.
I added an LED light in parallel with the aux contacts so I can see when we're diverting. Then I just turn off the breaker if I want to defeat it - say, during equalization charging, or charging from the aux generator.
Seven?
~kitestrings
Yep, 7! Here's my clan. My older boys HATE getting their pictures taken, so they always act like turds (make grumpy faces) during family pictures. If I want to get a good family picture, then I have to threaten them! :)
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Family-Pic.jpg)
I'm glad to hear that the mixer valve can simply T into the cold line on top of the water heater, then input the hot from the tank into the mixer valve, and then have the "mixed" side going to the outgoing pipe. I definitely plan to do this. Thanks for the idea.
I also bought an LED to wire into my DC SSR so I can see when it's diverting. Right now, I use a control system for diversion that uses a big relay. It makes a loud click sound everytime it starts and stops diverting. At first, it was really annoying to me (because my "office" is in the utility room where I have my RE stuff), but then I got used to it. In fact, I now like it because it gives me an audible signal as to what's happening with my water heating diversion. Once I switch to the Classic to maximize the power harvest from my wind turbine, then I'll stop using this other controller. Since the SSR will be silent, I wanted to at least have the LED so I can at least see when it's diverting.
Edward
cute kids (even with the smugs). I've got to figure out how to post pictures, graphics - never enough hours
There are leds on the relays themselves on ours, but it's in the basement, so that doesn't help much.
good luck
~kitestrings
I just got home after being out of town for 5 days, and guess what present was awaiting me when I got home???
My Classic 150 arrived today! Woohooo! :)
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on February 16, 2011, 01:10:08 AM
I just got home after being out of town for 5 days, and guess what present was awaiting me when I got home???
My Classic 150 arrived today! Woohooo! :)
Edward
That is cool. If you have any questions when you start playing with it feel free to call.
Thanks, Halfcrazy. I'm looking forward to getting it set up and running!
A small update. I've been busy with other responsibilities in life, but today I was able to finish a little something. I ordered a large aluminum heat sink to mount my new rectifier, 3 phase solid state relay, and DC solid state relay. The 3 phase will be a part of the "Clipper" that will dump 3 phase AC power to a heating load in order to control input voltage into the Classic. I will also use it to control the speed of my turbine. The DC SSR will divert power to my water heater when the battery bank is fully charged.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Heat-Sink-1.jpg)
I riveted some aluminum angle to the sides of the heat sink that I will use as brackets for mounting to the wall. I still need to drill the mounting holes for where the screws will mount it to the wall. The heat sink will be mounted vertical so that there will be a natural "chimney" convection cooling effect. I drilled and tapped the mounting holes for the components. I polished the surface of the heat sink and then hand lapped the bottom surfaces of the rectifier and 2 SSR relays. I did this to try to ensure good heat conduction. I then applied Arctic Silver thermal heat transfer compound on the bottom of all 3 components.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Heat-Sink-2.jpg)
We are having some stormy and windy weather predicted for the next few days, so I don't plan to disconnect my turbine to do the change over to the Classic yet. I want to wait until it's calm outside (so I don't have a runaway turbine while disconnecting wiring), and also I want to continue to harvest the power during this windy time.
That's all so far.
Edward
Edward,
That's a surprisingly small rectifier. I'd just assumed that we'd build a bridge rectifier with stud mounted rectifier diodes. That's what I'm familar with, and it allows individual diodes to be replace, but we may have to rethink this. Are they pricey?
~kitestrings
kitestrings,
I paid around $95USD for this Powersem PSD 192/18 (which included postage from Germany). I couldn't find this 3 phase rectifier in the US for sale (except used), and so I ordered mine from here:
http://www.semimart.net/shop/product_info.php?info=p199_PSD192-18.html&language=en (http://www.semimart.net/shop/product_info.php?info=p199_PSD192-18.html&language=en)
It is rated at 248A and 1800V, so it will have a large factor of safety for my wind turbine system. I could have used a rectifier with half those specs (both current and voltage), but for a reasonable price I was able to buy this high quality, made in Germany rectifier.
Edward
Looks very nice Mr. Turbos !
I now have a couple of Teledyne SSRs for AC and DC use.
http://www.teledynerelays.com/pdf/industrial/e3p.pdf 3 phase for AC side use
and
http://www.teledynerelays.com/pdf/industrial/SI.pdf for DC use but for the
DC (IGBT) type, some other components have to be added to keep down the
inductive flyback of the load resistor when it turns off.
These are very nice parts but are in very short supply at the moment.
Hopefully we can get Teledyne to make a bunch more !
boB
The specs on those look real good boB.
Did you get one of the 75A 3 phase SSR?
I really would have preferred to have a 75A 3 phase SSR to have a bigger factor of safety. I went for the 50A Crydom 3 phase because it was available, and didn't know about the Teledyne SSR's. That's why I chose a big heat sink to try to keep temperatures under control and hopefully improve reliability.
What's the street price on those Teledyne 3 phase SSR's?
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on February 25, 2011, 12:28:28 AM
The specs on those look real good boB.
Did you get one of the 75A 3 phase SSR?
What's the street price on those Teledyne 3 phase SSR's?
Edward
Yes, and Yes. (I think)...
Got one of the 75A 3-phase SSRs and one of the DC SSRs.
The street price for the 3-phase is around $132 for one (1) to 24
and the DC SSR is about $170.00 for one to 24....
Looks like quantities will definitely be better price.
Compared to the prices I saw for other DC SSRs from, I think Futureelec
or Crydom (can't remember which one now), the price was no worse for
the Teledyne. Just a much better part and slightly less $$$$
I have more AC SSRs coming to me and the one AC 3-phase SSR is going
to 1/2 Crazy for evaluation on something I'm semi familiar with... The Bergey
48V turbine. We will find out soon I hope if all is well. I expect so but gotta
be sure.
AC clipping should be much more managable than DC clipping just because of the
flyback energy in the dump resistor.
boB
boB,
That's a reasonable price for a 75A 3 phase AC SSR.
What's your gut impression of a 50A 3 phase SSR for a 2kW wind turbine (3.5kW peak)?
From what I saw on the Crydom 50A 3 phase SSR specs, and the little bit of number crunching I did, I felt that it would be sufficient as long as I kept the temps under control. I didn't see the 50A rating being exceeded on any of the 3 phases - especially considering the Classic will allow the voltage to rise and bring incoming amps down.
I'm of the opinion "better safe than sorry", and given the choice I would always like to choose a larger factor of safety as long it wasn't too cost prohibitive.
Edward
EDIT: I just did some more reading on the Teledyne SSR and it might be pretty close to the Crydom 50A SSR that I already have. From what I can tell, Teledyne rates their SSR as 75A for resistive loads and 50A for inductive loads. I noticed on this picture of and older part, that they specify on the label 75A (resistive loads).
(http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Large/601-0006_large.jpg)
Edward, that looks just like the one I have here. Either one is probably fine though.
Is the Crydom AC SSR optically isolated ?
Remember that 3 power resistors will need to be used as well. This would also
enable SSRs to be paralleled as long as the voltage drop is enough across those
resistors. Something around at least 1.0 Ohm (or more) would work good.
boB
Quote from: boB on February 25, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
Edward, that looks just like the one I have here. Either one is probably fine though.
Is the Crydom AC SSR optically isolated ?
Remember that 3 power resistors will need to be used as well. This would also
enable SSRs to be paralleled as long as the voltage drop is enough across those
resistors. Something around at least 1.0 Ohm (or more) would work good.
boB
Good question boB! I am not sure if the Crydom D53TP50D is optically isolated. Somehow, I thought I read some where that it was, but when I look at the data sheet, I don't see that exact wording. Can you please see what you think from the Crydom datasheets:
http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/5_3tp.pdf (http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/5_3tp.pdf)
Glad that you mentioned the 3 power resistors are necessary. This is something that I didn't know about. Now my electronics ignorance will become painfully apparent! Where/how would those resistors be wired to the 3 phase SSR?
You mentioned that 1.0 ohm would be good. Any old 1.0 ohm (or more) resistor, or what other specs should I look for?
Thanks,
Edward
EDIT: I was thinking about the 3 power resistors you mentioned boB. I wonder if those are needed in cases where the 3 phase SSR will be used to short out the 3 phases of the turbine. In my case, I will be using my SSR to divert 3 phase power to a 3 phase heater box, so perhaps I won't need the additional resistors. Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong, and maybe you can help clear up the fog in my head. Oh, I guess that might not be humanly possible. :) Perhaps at least you can explain the purpose of the 3 x 1.0 ohm power resistors that you mentioned. Thanks.