Good morning :)
So I've spent the past 14 months in the boatyard.
The wind turbines are disconnected.
The inverter is off.
Bank has no loads on it.
I went to do regular battery maintenance, and my battery bank
(8 L-16 lead acid floor sweeper batteries, series parallel, 24 volts)
took *4 gallons* of distilled water to top off.
Pretty sure that there was exposed plates.
All loads are disconnected, terminals are clean and tight.
I can hear the batteries bubbling a bit, they took half a quart of water today (total) a week after I topped them off... and my wizbang Jr is telling me that they're charging at 27.4 amps, but my state of charge is 100%.
No idea what to do now, can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
This is what I'm looking at.
Stone, what is the AH capacity rating of that battery ? Not 921AH or what the remaining AH says ?
According to what the WB Jr. in the Classic knows, it sees that your remaining AH are about the same as the capacity entered into the WB Jr. setup screen in order to display 100% without flashing that SOC% figure. If the Classic has just been turned on, the Classic WB Jr. software will show 100% but will flash instead of going solid SOC% representation. Until an Absorb cycle is completed and the Classic goes to FLOAT, it will flash after being turned off and on again. The main status screen will also not show 100% before the first Absorb-Float transition.
IF that is correct, then maybe the batteries just need to continue and the current will come down ? BUT these are on your boat so I would be careful of the battery temperatures. Measure each battery or even cell voltage while that current is going into the batteries.... Notice that one battery or cell might be much lower than the other(s) voltage drop.
See what you find.
Interstate L-16's
245 Min @ 75 a
935 Min @ 25 a
435 ah @ 20 Hr
is what it says on the battery label.
I have 2 strings of 4 in series,
and this strings are paralleled together.
This has been running for a couple of years, but always had a load on the inverter (fridge, freezer, etc)
I'm wondering if the entire system is confused about what it is, as there may have been some DC pulled out of the system that didn't go through the shunt.
... right now I'm hoping my batteries are okay.
I think I need someone to walk me through the settings... do we have a tutorial or something available?
Quote from: Stone on August 19, 2024, 02:29:36 PMInterstate L-16's
245 Min @ 75 a
935 Min @ 25 a
435 ah @ 20 Hr
is what it says on the battery label.
I have 2 strings of 4 in series,
and this strings are paralleled together.
This has been running for a couple of years, but always had a load on the inverter (fridge, freezer, etc)
I'm wondering if the entire system is confused about what it is, as there may have been some DC pulled out of the system that didn't go through the shunt.
... right now I'm hoping my batteries are okay.
I think I need someone to walk me through the settings... do we have a tutorial or something available?
Hi Stone,
Just a few comments:
Your battery bank needs to be EQed, after you try to get the battery as fully-charged as you can by doing several charge cycles with your Classics, generator/shore power, etc.
Check the electrolyte level before EQ, and top-up any cells that are a bit low.
Your battery had about 870 Ah when new, at about 77 degrees F.
You must be using a Batt Temp Sensor, with a fairly warm battery, for the Remaining Ah reading shown on the Wb, or, the total capacity used in the Wb Setup was set too high ...
Please measure and record, the terminal voltage of each battery when the charge (or discharge) current on the Wb is at its highest -- near the end of Bulk.
During EQ, keep a close eye on battery temps, and be careful about sparks and open flames during Absorb, and especially during EQ, as Hydrogen gas is produced by the battery, in these stages.
Use the Absorb and EQ recommendations from the battery manufacturer for the above, for now.
IMO, the EQ voltage from the Classics should be Temp Compensated.
In the Classic's Temp menu, there is a reading for the battery temperature, that the BTS measures, for your convenience.
More later, please report the individual battery voltages for each battery, during the high current charging/discharge, and the Wb current, and the batt temperature when the voltages were measured.
EDIT to add: Forgot to mention, that FLA batteries can have a fairly significant self discharge, which cannot be reported by battery monitoring devices, like the WbJr, because this discharge happens inside the batteries. The higher the battery temperature, the greater is this self-discharge rate ...<
More later, Good Luck, Vic
"Your battery bank needs to be EQed"
Currently has no loads on it. set it for 2 hours, plenty of sun, uncertain if it completed the EQ, any harm doing it again?
"Check the electrolyte level before EQ and top-up any cells that are a bit low."
Used profill to top them all, visual verification, all are full and even.
"Your battery (bank?) had about 870 Ah when new, at about 77 degrees F."
Okay, how did we get that number?
435 ah @ 20 Hr @ 6v ... are we multiplying it by 2 'cause 2 strings?
"You must be using a Batt Temp Sensor,"
Yes.
"with a fairly warm battery, for the Remaining Ah reading shown on the Wb, or, the total capacity used in the Wb Setup was set too high ..."
I'll check the WBJ.
"Please measure and record, the terminal voltage of each battery when the charge (or discharge) current on the Wb is at its highest -- near the end of Bulk."
Bank is showing 100% SOC on the WBJ, so I would assume as soon as the sun goes down... guessing I need to disconnect all the batteries from each other for this?
"During EQ, keep a close eye on battery temps, and be careful about sparks and open flames during Absorb, and especially during EQ, as Hydrogen gas is produced by the battery, in these stages."
Okay.
"Use the Absorb and EQ recommendations from the battery manufacturer for the above, for now."
Have been, although they seem a bit high to me
"IMO, the EQ voltage from the Classics should be Temp Compensated."
I thought it was, but I'll check.
Not currently at the boat, but in a different thread (original issue in January) I found this:
+---------+
All loads are on the proper side of the shunt.
Temperature compensation is on.
Bank is 8 L-16 6v in series parallel @ 24 volts.
Settings:
EQ: 32.3 volts
Absorb 29.6 volts
Float 27.0 volts
+---------+
"In the Classic's Temp menu, there is a reading for the battery temperature, that the BTS measures, for your convenience."
"please report the individual battery voltages for each battery, during the high current charging/discharge, and the Wb current, and the batt temperature when the voltages were measured."
So I'm supposed to do this while it's live, charging, no loads, or?
"FLA batteries can have a fairly significant self discharge, which cannot be reported by battery monitoring devices"
... So the inverter kicked off like dead bank. WBJ showed 75% SOC.
Is this the WBJ being confused about how much current has come in and out (is this a math problem?)
... I saw a 480,000 number somewhere, and this system has been running non stop with a constant 12-15a inverter draw and occasional 56-83a draw...
Okay, I'm back at the boat
I have a sneaking suspicion that the WBJ is misconfigured.
My brain is beginning to melt.
Stone, questions...
What is the battery voltage during these pictures ?
What is the Classic current from the main status screen ?
And, you can measure each battery in circuit. Just make sure that the load hasn't changed much between each measurement.
Do any of the batteries feel hot ?
boB
I haven't checked voltage at the batteries yet.
It's 11pm, no sun, no loads.
Amp hours available seems way high?
(thought it should be 870?)
Press the SETUP soft key and change the Amp-Hours to what your batteries are.
900+ is quite a big battery ! Maybe something glitched ?
Also look at the MORE menu on the left side for the WB Jr.
Check battery voltages especially if they are charging or running a load. That will give a clue. Maybe there is only one bad battery or something like that ?
Do the batteries still draw like, 24A during the day ? Clues.
boB
Hi Stone,
Your battery is HOT -- about 100 F.
Based on voltage, your battery SOC is fairly low. The Wb needs a full charge in Absorb, to calibrate to reality.
If you do not have a good Hydrometer, suggest the Hydrovolt:
https://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-battery-hydrometer.html
No time now, more later, thanks for the screen shots, Vic
BoB: Setup shows 870.
Left soft button on WBJ shows this:
Hi Stone,
Several more things:
Your Remaining battery Capacity is set in the Wb, as 1% per degree C change from the Reference temp of 25C. One of the screen shots in this thread shows the BTS reads bat temp, as about 37 C plus, which is close to 100 F. This means that the battery was HOT, at that time. This high batt temp increased remaining Capacity from the 870 Ah that was set in the Wb ... (YES, parallel strings multiply batt Capacity -- 435X2=870Ah).
I would suggest that you set the Wb to Reset Net Ah, when the Classic goes to Float, here is how to do that from the WB Manual, pg4,
"The Net Amp-hours tally can be configured to reset every time the Classic goes
to float. To set this option, go to the "TWEAKS" menu and press "MORE" four
times. Select "WBRST" and press the UP or DOWN arrow keys to select "YES."
Press Enter to save. "NO" (or no reset) is the default".
More, a bit later, have been traveling, FWIW, Vic
... AND, speaking of battery monitoring devices, including the MNWbJr, they all give approximations of SOC, with, generally too little real data.
These devices do a good job of Counting Coulombs, (total Net Ah into and out of the battery), so on off grid systems which are recharged, regularly, they can be fairly accurate.
Personally, with our completely off grid systems, which are generally fully charged on most days, we use the WbJr's report of Net Ah, in the morning, and almost always ignore SOC reports ... but, this is just me.
IMO, setting the Wb to reset Net Ah, each time that the Classic/s transition from Absorb, to Float, makes the info provided by the Wb, more useful.
Also, FLA batteries are not very efficient, particularly during Absorb. The FLA banks here are about 75-77% efficient on most full charge cycles (opinions differ, on this).
OH, and Stone, one of the screen shots that you provided, shows that your Classic does not Temp Comp EQs. Compenstion of EQs, helps reduce the chance of Thermal Runaway, and it also provides better predictability of the EQ, IMO.
Later, Vic
WBRST changed from "No" to "Yes"
Thank you Vic !
Stone, I hope you can measure the individual battery voltages..
Ya know... IF one of the batteries are bad, it will stand out like a sore thumb most likely even without charging or discharging.
If they are ALL bad... Well I guess that will be harder to compare with. But for sure, while charging, feel the batteries to see if one of them is hotter or colder than the others. Maybe use a glove too.
But voltage alone should show what's going on.
"Compensation of EQs, helps reduce the chance of Thermal Runaway, and it also provides better predictability of the EQ"
I'll turn that on when I get back to the boat.
So where do I set what, to clarify to the system that it's 75ish % efficient?
I'm guessing the system has been trying to overcharge for the last 3 years, and the constant draw made it less noticable. I'll try to grab voltages tomorrow morning.
Hi Stone,
IIRC, the setting for Temperature Compensation of EQ is in:
Charge>Temperature Comp>EQ,Yes.
Here is the Link for the WbJr Manual:
https://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/10-264-1_REV_F.pdf
Page 4 in this manual shows how to set the Battery Charge Efficiency. Why not use 80% as a starting point -- this is a fine point, at this moment.
Those battery voltage readings will be quite helpful. Please note the Wb battery charge/discharge Amps at the time these batt voltage readings were measured.
Good Luck, Vic
This looks like bad news, but I'm no expert.
My volt meter seems kinda stupid, cause it's wandering around a bit, but I have numbers
A few of these were higher on recheck, so those are the numbers I went with.
Topped the batteries (half gallon or so) and then:
|[ 4.2 ][ 5.8 ][ 6.1 ][ 6.2 ]|+
-|[ 6.4 ][ 4.3 ][ 6.5 ][ 5.4 ]|
Classic reads: 65V/ 70W in, batt 23.5V, 3.2A
WBJ reads 2.5A in, 20 deg C, 872AH, 100% SOC
It's overcast and raining like hell here.
Set temperature comp to ON
Set battery charge efficiency to 80%
Quote from: Stone on August 23, 2024, 07:39:02 PMThis looks like bad news, but I'm no expert.
My volt meter seems kinda stupid, cause it's wandering around a bit, but I have numbers
A few of these were higher on recheck, so those are the numbers I went with.
Topped the batteries (half gallon or so) and then:
|[ 4.2 ][ 5.8 ][ 6.1 ][ 6.2 ]|+
-|[ 6.4 ][ 4.3 ][ 6.5 ][ 5.4 ]|
Classic reads: 65V/ 70W in, batt 23.5V, 3.2A
WBJ reads 2.5A in, 20 deg C, 872AH, 100% SOC
It's overcast and raining like hell here.
Set temperature comp to ON
Set battery charge efficiency to 80%
I don't think that EQ is going to help here. BUT I may be wrong. You can try.
I would say that the 4.2V and 4.3V and maybe the 5.4V are the worse batteries.
The 5.8V battery is probably on the edge.
Raining and 65V input and 70 watts (display only shows output watts) won't help to get them up to equal voltage though. What should be done, I think, to try to help these batteries, is to charge them individually at the 6V (7V) level with a separate charger and shore power. Full absorb or maybe even EQ voltage for a few hours while watching the water level. And I would start with those low low batteries first. Go to an auto parts store or Harbor Freight if there are any around and buy one or two of the chargers that will do 6V/12V
If one of those batteries doesn't end up staying at the ~6.3V area after a few hours of EQ or Absorb charging, then that battery is more than likely, toast.
Vic and others, please re-read what I just posted and comment on anything I have said wrong here.
I wonder why the voltages were changing with your meter ? It might be that with the rain, there was a varying amount of power as well as loads on the boat turning on and off.
Thank you for those readings, Stone ! That helps a lot.
boB
The inverter is off.
Literally the only things connected to the bank are the classic 150 and the WBJ.
I'm guessing that the meter I'm using was picking up the incoming voltage fluctuations... (a hundredth of a volt is pretty fine detail for this sort of thing)
Hi boB,
The drifting voltage readings on the Multimeter is troubleing. One wonders about some loose connections, in the cables twix the batteries ... or perhaps it is just that, at least some batts, are high impeadance, and the small charge current from the PVs in the rain is really varying that much due to some of the batts are no longer really batteries.
One could make up one string, using those batts that are closest to 6 Volts ... but, each of these 6 V batts weigh about 120 Lbs, so moving batts to make four of them close together, might not work out ...
One might wonder about the Multimeter, too ... many wonderments. I only have one dumb transformer-rectifier batt charger in the fleet of portable batt chargers here, dunno how common are batt chargers with 6v capability. Am sure that Amazon has a flood of batt chargers, probably most of them are "Smart", and may not even turn on, unless, batt voltage is fairly close to spec, and so on.
FWIW, thanks boB, for doing your above and beyond Tech Support on this Forum, we all sure do appreciate your dedication, later, thanks, Vic
So I have no idea wtf it's trying to do.
This is an 870ah bank, and I can hear the batteries bubbling. :/
Guessing I should disconnect the panels until I get this figured out. :/
Quote from: Stone on August 25, 2024, 06:26:17 PMSo I have no idea wtf it's trying to do.
This is an 870ah bank, and I can hear the batteries bubbling. :/
Guessing I should disconnect the panels until I get this figured out. :/
Hi Stone,
Your battery may be HOT, still.
The 25 C temperature shown on the Wb Status screen, is NOT the batt temp, it is just the temperature of the Wb's circuit board.
IIRC, one of the earlier series of Classic screens, did show 1% batt Capacity change for every for every 1 degree C change in batt temperature. This may be a bit on the high side, at least to me.Lemme look for suggested settings for this.
EDITto add: My Classics use 0.3% per degree C, change in batt Capacity vs temperature change (FWIW).
AND, during sunny days, what is the Classsic charge stage??
This Classic may be stuck in EQ, IIRC, an EQ will continue, every day, until the total EQ time is reached, and the only time that counts, is the time that the Classic spends at the voltage set as the EQ voltage. I believe that the EQ is not reset at Midnite of the day that the EQ was started (when ARST is enabled).<
In the Classic's Temperatures page, please check and report what this temp reading is for the battery.
That screen shot in your post of today, there is about 34 Amps of charge current, going into the batteries ... it is encouraging that the batteries can accept that amount of current.
Later, Thanks, Vic
I disconnected the panels yesterday and let everything sit overnight.
7am this morning, here's the temp screen.
Hi Stone,
The batt temp looks fine.
With no charging for hours, and if the only loads on the batts, other than the Classic's idle power, if possible, this is probably a great time to measure the terminal voltage of each batt, and record/report them, if possible.
Thanks, Vic
Okay, so system has been nothing but the classic 150 and the batteries, for around 24 hours.
A couple of these read lower, but climbed over the course of a couple of seconds... no idea what that means.
Old numbers:
-|[ 4.2 ][ 5.8 ][ 6.1 ][ 6.2 ]|
|[ 6.4 ][ 4.3 ][ 6.5 ][ 5.4 ]|+
New:
|[ 2.4 ][ 4.3 ][ 4.1 ][ 4.7 ]|+
-|[ 6.0 ][ 3.4 ][ 6.0 ][ 3.9 ]|
Note that they likely need water.
I'm starting to question the meter I'm using, so I'm going to try and borrow a better one.
I have a DeWalt bench charger here that says it'll do reconditioning, but it's 12v, so I'm uncertain as to the best way forward here.
Okay, new volt meter, bank has been sitting for a couple days, no charging, no loads.
Results:
|[ 3.86][ 6.00][ 5.79][ 6.03]|+
-|[ 6.51][ 4.24][ 6.45][ 4.48]|
I'm considering taking 1 and 3, making a 12v bank out of them and doing a recondition charge on them, then doing the same with 6 and 8.
Thoughts on this?
Also: is the classic going to lose it's settings if I disconnect it from the bank?
Quote from: Stone on August 27, 2024, 04:30:55 PMOkay, new volt meter, bank has been sitting for a couple days, no charging, no loads.
Results:
|[ 3.86][ 6.00][ 5.79][ 6.03]|+
-|[ 6.51][ 4.24][ 6.45][ 4.48]|
I'm considering taking 1 and 3, making a 12v bank out of them and doing a recondition charge on them, then doing the same with 6 and 8.
Thoughts on this?
Also: is the classic going to lose it's settings if I disconnect it from the bank?
I would charge at 6V. You can put 2 or 3 of those 6V batteries in parallel so that you can reduce the time in trying this.
If the 6V charger doesn't quite have enough current capability to charge 2 or 3 batteries in parallel, then you will have to try this with one less battery until it works. You can also parallel 6V chargers. However it might just take some time before the battery voltage rises to a good level.
But yes, make sure the plates are all covered electrolyte. Have a few distilled water bottles handy.
Is the Ninaa Ootakii located where there is good size town or Amazon deliveries ? You could be in Timbuk Tu where there is hardly any services.
boB
My reconditioning charger is 12v.
I can totally Amazon stuff.
(I'm in Port Townsend boat haven, just across the water from you)
If I need to spring for a 6v reconditioning charger for this. Is there one you recommend?
Is their a Harbor Freight nearby ? They have 6/12 Volt chargers. And cheap too !
I am in Phoenix, AZ right now and would give you the two I have here if you could just float on over :)
Those chargers are inexpensive too. I don't remember how high of voltage they are and I would hook it up and measure but I don't have a 6V battery here. I would try one of those. I know that the V is high enough for your bad batteries though. IF the current doesn't come down eventually to a reasonable level (< 5 A or so ?) then one of the 3 2V cells is probably un-recoverable. I mean possibly a couple/few hours of time.
I LOVE Pt. Townsend !
boB
Hi Stone,
Is it too soon to ask how your batteries are doing?
Good Luck with whatever you do choose to do. Vic
I have a 30@ DeWalt bench charger that has a reconditioning mode.
I took the two lowest voltage batteries, put them in series, lowest one first, and told it to recondition them.
It takes 24 hours to run a cycle.
First run, it gave me incomprehensible errors after completion.
Second run, I found it charging @ 30.5a
I aborted that, told it to run a 3rd time, and when I check on it, if it's charging, I'm going to let it keep doing it's thing and then test it.
I'm hoping for the best.
Hi Stone,
Thanks for the update, good luck !! Please let us know how you are doing with this process. Vic
Yeah, trying to recondition 2 batteries in series probably won't work.
You need to go to Harbor Freight and buy one of their chargers that works at 12V.
I know they have them. Probably won't do an equalize charge though.
EQ might be done with 2 in series but for sure, two dead batteries are just not going to share for charging when wired in series. That has been my experience.
You might even find something from Amazon that works for this. Just check to make sure that it will work for 6V batteries too.
boB
I can't seem to find a 6v reconditioning charger anywhere, figured since 12v reconditioning chargers are everywhere, and 2 6v chargers in series make 12v, it was worth a shot.
I'll hit harbor freight this week sometime and see what I can do.
I found a 6 volt charger!
(should have asked my 79 year old stepdad to begin with, lol)
Currently have it set to:
[6 Volts] 12 Volts
Auto [Auto Deep Cycle] Manual
2 Amp [10 Amp] Engine Start
As these batteries are 435ah @ 20 Hr, I'm guessing this is going to take roughly 48 hrs (maximum) each?
I disassembled the bank, plan is to individually charge each battery, and see what the results are.
Am I doing this correctly?
Also, I have one of these, and this is a 24 volt bank... : https://no.co/gx2440 it does have a desulfate repair mode... thoughts?
Assuming the charger will go to float, it might be interesting to compare final float currents for each battery. See my posts in LEAD ACID category.
It should give you an idea as to each batteries relative health.
These chargers usually don't tell the user what it is doing.
But De-Sulfate mode would/should be, basically just an EQ cycle. Your Classic has that.
OR you can bring the Absorb voltage up to an EQ setting which is somewhat higher than the typical Absorb voltage.
What was your nominal battery bank voltage ? Was it 24V ? If you have 4 of those 6V batteries in series for 24V total, then that charger you showed could work BUT ONLY AFTER you have run each battery (or 2 or more 6V in parallel), you can run the 6V charger on those and after ALL batteries are up to 6V+ for several hours, you might be able to hook them back to 24V bank and run a 24V charger (OR the Classic) on that bank of 4 6V batteries in series to get them equalized. That will mean running them in EQ mode for a few hours probably. MAKE SURE that all batteries have water/electrolyte covering and slightly above the top of the battery plates ! That is because EQualizing the batteries for hours will boil and the plates will certainly be uncovered. You do use sterilized water, right ?
AnyHoo... The best thing to do is to run each 6V battery for a few or couple hours at least but the voltage applied to them from that should be at or slightly higher than the recommended Absorb voltage.
I would look up the specifications from your battery manufacturer and see what they recommend for Absorb, Float and EQ voltages and go by that document.
boB
Talked to my local wizard (Colin @ pt electric, where I got the batteries to begin with) we called manufacturer tech support, and they said that they're probably toast, but there's one thing we can try.
Top with distilled, leave the caps off, and charge it at 40a or better and see what happens.
Battery 1 is currently in process.
The first 2 cells are still, the 3rd is bubbling, and the charger is showing 60a @ 6v.
I'm hoping this doesn't turn into triage and a new main bank. :/
60a @ 6v, cycle time 1 hour
Battery 1:
Start: 3.86 cell 3 bubbling.
End: 6.05v after 4 cycles.
Battery 5:
Start: 6.29 cell 1 and 3 bubbling.
End: 6.30v after 1 cycle.
notes: cell one acid is dark brown and I can't see the plates, cell 3 is a bit murky.
Currently working on #2
Spent a week with a 60a 6v charger, and I absolutely cannot get any of these batteries over 5.6 volts.
Unless someone has anything else to try, I'm pretty sure this bank is done for. :(