Folks;
I have a Clipper feeding a Classic 150 into a 24 volt bank from a nominal 24 volt 12 foot turbine with a wind track I took a WAG on.
The wind track tops out at 60 volts and 50 amps but I hope to keep the turbine below that.
I set the Clipper for about 45 volts max into the Classic or as close as I can by the markings on the pot. Today it claimed "resting" and "low light" but the Local App said 35 volts in as did my voltmeter.
I get very good results most of the time but have an issue quite regularly where the turbine is jamming volts in but the Classic is sitting there like a bump on a log. Say 35 to 40 volts in and no watts / amps out? The Classics are in Follow Me and are both in Bulk MPPT sitting at 27 volts on the battery or so.
Any idea what is going on?
I hate letting the turbine run free as it is very hard on them running unloaded if a big gust shows up.
Any input appreciated.
Tom
I did not mention it in the original post but this is a DC Clipper.
Tom
Tom,
Maybe I'm completely off track but I though the voltage set pot in the Clipper was only a 'fail safe' to protect the Classic, hence the 150,200,250 settings. Lower than 150 for the Clipper being used with a non MN CC that had a lower max v input.
So the 35v input and the Classic being a log bump is more likely an issue with the power wind curve in the Classic.
just a thought :D
dgd
Quote from: dgd on April 24, 2013, 08:16:03 PM
Tom,
So the 35v input and the Classic being a log bump is more likely an issue with the power wind curve in the Classic.
just a thought :D
dgd
dgd;
I thought that, too so I cranked it up to ~150 and the Classic still just sits there resting with 30 + volts on the input.
I had similar issues with no Clipper on it, also while I waited for a replacement bracket that United Package Smashers apparently damaged in transit.
I have rebooted the Classic several times with no change.
The wind track should load it anywhere above battery voltage enough to get output to the batteries but it just sits there like it is on strike. Maybe I am just not within the capabilities of the controller? Very frustrating to miss needed wind power on these low sun days.
I really want to get this working because it really wakes up my turbine in lower winds where I need it but I simply cannot trust it to keep the turbine loaded because of this issue. I just hooked it directly to the batteries where it works at least some.
Thanks for the response.
Tom
Tom,
Just a couple more thoughts..
I seem to remember reading that the Classic needs 20+ watts on its input before it wakens up.
And do you power the Clipper from your battery? I'm not sure about the DC version but the AC clipper has inputs on the pcb for
battery + and - I assume to power the circuit board. Otherwise the circuit is powered by the DC from the turbine/rectifier.
Also the DC Clipper appears to use a 3 phase bridge rectifier, or half of it on DC +ve, to provide isolation and prevent any risk of backfeeding from the Classic to the dump resistor bank.
All of this will be consuming a base load from the turbine power input. If you are looking to use low(ish) power production from the turbine then this base load may be defeating your efforts.
dgd
dgd;
All good thoughts.
I am pretty certain there is enough oomph to power the circuits and then some. As I mentioned in the last comment it does this directly connected to the turbine DC or through the Clipper.
You see, it has worked before. It was working this morning and early afternoon.
Inevitably the Classic just decides to ignore the input voltage. It has done this since I first started using it on wind. I am going to connect it to my other solar array and let it run solar awhile see if it operates properly in that role. I am just not willing to trust it to not let my turbine run free. Too much at stake as I cannot repair it myself if it fails.
It seems it should reset itself after a reboot and work but it cycles through that resting .... wait X seconds.. loop a long time before it settles and claims it is in Bulk MPPT mode but pushes no power out. It is NOT a display issue on the Classic, my shunt shows no current flow to the battery and my voltmeter agrees close enough on the input voltage.
Remember I may be a jinx and Murphy follows me around like a lost puppy some days.
Thanks.
Tom
Tom
Something does sound fishy. If the first step in the Wind curve is say set to 27 volts at 27 volts on the input the Classic should wake up. Something does not sound correct here and it almost exhibits the behavior I have seen after a firmware update and no VMM. What are the first 2 steps set for in voltage?
Murphy tends to follow me a lot so maybe he will head back to Maine and leave you alone for a while
Ryan
The Classic will wake up with only 2 watts on the input as long as the voltage is high enough to create some power. I'm not at all familiar with the DC clipper, but I doubt that's the problem.
There's a couple things I can think of that can cause this and one is that the Mode is OFF. But then it would never work until you turn the Mode to ON. The other is, what is the battery SOC? If it's absorb or float, and due to other power sources supplying the necessary amps to maintain the charge stage voltage the Classic will unload the turbine because the available power isn't needed for charging.
So it could be a Follow-Me issue. I've been experimenting with a "boost charge" profile to reduce the absorb time of our bank using Auto EQ to provide the finish stage charging. I've noticed that during the 20 minute Equalize if the power from wind turbines isn't needed they're all screaming at 135-140 volts. When they're doing that the AUX1 can come on and brake one, almost stopping it, and the voltage shown on the display is still at 130 or so while I know the actual is only about 20 to 25 volts.
So I'd take a good look at the voltage offsets in the Tweaks menu, compare the voltage settings in the Charging menu between all the Follow-Me controllers and make sure that they're all compatible. With Follow-Me controllers with some of them on solar duty and some on wind duty, the solar ones generally dominate. So if a wind controller "sees" even .2 volts more than a solar controller (on its bank voltage reading), the wind turbine will get unloaded and let the solar do the job. For that reason I set the battery voltage offset on the wind controllers .2 volts below actual so those controllers don't think they got the battery over charge stage voltage and unload the turbines.
So what I'm saying is, what does your wind controller think the battery voltage is when this is happening, and what's the charge stage?
--
Chris
Chris;
Thanks for the feedback.
The mode is definitely wind track and "on" the Classics seem to agree on voltage. The status was "Bulk MPPT" on both Classics. I disabled Follow me on the Wind Classic and it made no difference. That was my first troubleshooting step when this first happened. Batteries are in the upper range of S.O.C. but not "full". It has not done this when the batteries are low on charge so it may have to do with battery voltage somehow?
I am at a loss so I have the turbine directly connected to the batteries and the Classic off line. It is too bad because the Classic really wakes up a turbine in the low end where you need the power. It works sweet when it works.
Remember, Murphy follows me around like a lost puppy! I don't have your skills and tools to recover from a turbine failure so I err on the side of protecting my baby.
Appreciate the feedback, Chris!
Tom
Any chance you could fire that Classic up, export the wind curve out of the Status Panel and post it?
I think you said you verified the input voltage at the controller input terminals?
What firmware version you got in that controller? And have you done a Vulcan Mind Meld on it, to make sure the latest features of the firmware are properly loaded? I ran into some issues with that when I was trying out beta firmware. There's a lot of settings in there that COULD cause that, and without know what they all are it's difficult to diagnose.
From what I've seen, it's not abnormal when a turbine spools up to have the voltage go over the first step in the power curve for a bit before the controller wakes up and "grabs" it. It could be that you are so close to battery voltage on that first step that it's not seeing enough power there to mess with when the bank voltage is up aways above nominal?
You have to remember that as soon as the controller "grabs" the turbine the "clamp" voltage drops quite a bit from open voltage so the turbine generator will produce amps. How much it drops depends on stator resistance and line resistance, and how much loss you got in the rectifier. So the open voltage can be saying 30 (or whatever) but as soon as it gets loaded the required "clamp" drops below actual bank voltage before the turbine will produce amps, and then the controller just goes back to Resting because it can't get any power from the turbine.
I got a spreadsheet that I designed to figure all that out for initial programming of a turbine's power curve. That difference between open voltage and clamp voltage can bite you with a MPPT controller on wind power. Especially on long wire runs or turbines with high-resistance stators (or even a bad connection on on leg of the three phase). Direct hooked the turbine might be running at 32-33 (peak) volts at the generator while the actual bank voltage is only 25. When you put that turbine on a Classic, that doesn't change. So as soon as it loads the turbine if the actual voltage (under load) drops to bank voltage the controller goes "Whoa - this ain't workin" and it dumps the turbine until it spools up some more.
--
Chris
Chris;
I did a VMM on it when I installed the 1370 firmware from 4-08-2012 on both the MNGP and Classic. Same setup as my solar Classic.
I have about 300 foot of an overhead run of AL Triplex like you see as meter drops to homes not sure but 00 I think. #6 down the tower to rectifiers (100 feet total run one way) and about 10 feet of #6 from triplex end to controller. In case it is not obvious, I feed DC from the tower base to the power room.
If I get ahead of the HoneyDo list today I will fire it up and grab the wind track that is on it and post it. Thing is, I tweaked it trying to get it to load the turbine when this happened the last time. I have been tweaking the curve since I started using it on wind as I started with a WAG. I think I had it pretty close because it was making the turbine shine in the low end where I need it. Nice weather finally got here so I will go do a wiring audit if I get ahead of things here and ensure winter did not toss me a connections curve.
Thanks.
Tom
Got a bit of time to mess with this so I audited the wiring and all seems well.
I did another VMM on the Classic. Reconnected the turbine and fired up the Classic. Battery is under load and voltage is lower than the turbine incoming. Absolutely no change. No charging with 40 volts incoming. Shorting the turbine input yields a nice, fat spark and vaporized one of the strands on the cable that got in between the turbine calbes on the sdhort test. Seems to be power there?
Turbine is shorted so it doesn't run away which is a real concern with no load in the gusty winds today. I am going to reconnect it to the battery direct so I can get something out of it until we sort out what is going on.
Attaching the current track for your viewing pleasure. Remember I have been messing with it to try to get a load on the turbine so it is different than what I had when this started. That track seemed a good match so wish I had been smart and saved it. Duh.
Just an update.
Tom
Well, this is what your wind curve looks like (attached). This is totally SNAFU'd. Let me fix it for you and I'll repost the repaired CSV and you can try that.
--
Chris
Tom, load this sucker in there and try it.
Some comments on this - you should have your first step somewhat above battery voltage. And you should try to keep the steps as evenly spaced as possible. I noticed you tried to "clamp" the turbine at 29 volts for a long time with a big gap in output amps. Don't do that. Let that turbine RUN. Don't be afraid to let 'er spin. The generator is more efficient if you let the voltage rise, and so are the blades if you keep their tip speed up around 6-7.
--
Chris
I had to post the CSV in a separate post because the other one would not take two attachments.
--
Chris
Chris;
Thanks a bunch. Will slip it in there tomorrow see if it helps.
I see where you are coming from and it is a lot different than my approach. I had been messing with the one I posted trying to get it to load the turbine and it was a little closer to yours before it stopped working as expected.
Be nice if there was a "Classic Wind Tracks for Dummies" document someplace. Even a document with some explanation on how to go about it from scratch. I just took a WAG and it actually worked fairly well most of the time but when battery volts got high it ignored the input voltage.
Thanks.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on April 27, 2013, 11:06:36 PM
I just took a WAG and it actually worked fairly well most of the time but when battery volts got high it ignored the input voltage.
I have a sneaking suspicion that's because your first step is way too low on voltage (below system nominal). And then you got a big gap from 4 amps to 24 amps output with the voltage basically "clamped" at 29. The turbine probably goes above 29 volts really fast so the controller ends up in never-never land with an I-V curve that doesn't make sense.
Anyway, try that revised power curve and see if it "fixes" it. I'm pretty sure it will, and then you can tweak the voltages as necessary to make it run the way you want. But leave the amps steps alone.
--
Chris
Chris;
Ok, slipped your wind track in the Wind Classic. No change.
Wind is not kicking in much but have seen 45 volts in with no amps out.
Tried to get a screenshot of the Local App but by the time I did it had dropped to 41 and Battery volts was 27.
(http://pics.ww.com/d/486943-1/Screenshot+at+2013-04-28+10_24_56.png)
It is not a Local App issue as the MNGP said the same thing.
Makes me doubt it is a Wind Track issue?
Just an update.
Tom
Dang. You got two Classics there, Tom? I know it's a bit of a hassle. But I'm wondering if you could swap them around and see if happens with the other one? I got that same firmware in my controllers and no problems at all, so I don't see how it could be a firmware issue. But at least swapping the controllers around, and if it happens with two different controllers, that pretty much eliminates the controller as being the problem, and it's something else.
If the other controller works normal, then I'm going to say you got an issue with that one controller.
--
Chris
Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 28, 2013, 11:42:42 AM
Dang. You got two Classics there, Tom? I know it's a bit of a hassle. But I'm wondering if you could swap them around and see if happens with the other one? I got that same firmware in my controllers and no problems at all, so I don't see how it could be a firmware issue. But at least swapping the controllers around, and if it happens with two different controllers, that pretty much eliminates the controller as being the problem, and it's something else.
If the other controller works normal, then I'm going to say you got an issue with that one controller.
--
Chris
Chris;
Yes, 2 Classics. You should know better than most that this is an addiction that is never truly satisfied! Kind of a pain to swap them around as the cabling is spread out Very soon I am upgrading (again again) to add stacked FX2524, autotransformer and Epanel to get the 240 VAC we need for the washer / dryer and the well submersible pump. That gets us closer to energy independence should the need arise due to energy chaos in our "golden years".
When that happens I will have the gear placed such that swapping is easy. Too much Spring (finally) work here on the homestead. Cleaning out terraces, building fence, well, you know the routine on the land, I am sure. The upgrade will be a week or so away and I can run the turbine direct to batteries so the priority is getting the Solar reset issue tracked down.
Youth is wasted on the young. I get it now, too late as usual.
Thanks.
Tom
Yeah, but how about wire nutting some temporary jumper wires from the incoming high voltage services for the solar and wind to get the high voltage DC from one controller to the other? Just to try it and verify if it's a controller problem or if it's something else. Actually swapping out the controllers can be a pain if they're all conduit hooked up like mine are. But the battery side is fine and shouldn't have to be changed, so all you really have to do is swap out the incoming sources to see what it does.
--
Chris
OK, folks here we go.
Midnite sent a fresh Classic which I finally got around to using after a major upgrade for stacking and improved output power.
It worked as expected with Chris' Wind Track for my turbine. Then, while trying to get follow me to work I updated the wind Classic firmware from 1340 to 1370 the same as the solar Classic. Now it never gets out of "resting" mode and lets the turbine freewheel exactly like first one which I had updated before I used it.
Just another piece of the puzzle. Makes me think something with 1370 breaks the Wind Track ability?
Tom
Quote from: TomW on May 23, 2013, 03:42:18 PM
OK, folks here we go.
Midnite sent a fresh Classic which I finally got around to using after a major upgrade for stacking and improved output power.
It worked as expected with Chris' Wind Track for my turbine. Then, while trying to get follow me to work I updated the wind Classic firmware from 1340 to 1370 the same as the solar Classic. Now it never gets out of "resting" mode and lets the turbine freewheel exactly like first one which I had updated before I used it.
Just another piece of the puzzle. Makes me think something with 1370 breaks the Wind Track ability?
Tom
Well, 1370 is working fine in other wind applications.
From what I am seeing, I think you may have a wiring issue.
Make sure, first of all, that your negative connections between all your power
terminal blocks are solid and good.
Any other path the negative current tries to take, like through a communications
cable, is asking for trouble.
Updating code sort of makes you bump and move wires around and that
alone might jiggle a previously OK connection into a high resistance state
and not be very visible to the naked eye.
I'm not saying this is definitely your problem, but I do know you had
a PTC (resettable fuse) open up on another Classic which indicates a
possible loose negative.
boB
boB;
I checked every DC connection in the panels, Classics and the Clipper plus the earth grounds. All tight and secure.
I have the USB cables coming out of the Classics thru the holes in the side so I was not inside the panels making connections to upgrade from 1340 to 1370.
Not sure what else to check?
Thanks.
Tom
It must have been a combination of things because it is working now with battery voltage somewhat lower. It must have decided it did not need to push power into the batteries. All happened at the same time so I immediately blamed the upgrade.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
Quote from: boB on May 23, 2013, 05:05:03 PM
but I do know you had
a PTC (resettable fuse) open up on another Classic which indicates a
possible loose negative.
Any info available on conditions the PTC will open and how to know it is open and does it reset automatically after a delay or does some person action need doing? Is there a led code that shows its status or MNGP display indication
Dgd
Quote from: dgd on May 23, 2013, 07:51:17 PM
Any info available on conditions the PTC will open and how to know it is open and does it reset automatically after a delay or does some person action need doing? Is there a led code that shows its status or MNGP display indication
Dgd
Nahhh... The PTC is simply a "resettable" fuse, or, i.e., a low value resistor with a Positive
Temperature Coefficient (PTC) that, when more current passes through it than its "trip current",
it heats up and its resistance goes WAY up and is more like an open.
Normally the PTCs in the Classic are in series with the jack's positive power pins so
if you short them to negative, this PTC opens up and keeps the Classic's internal
auxiliary power supply from being overly loaded down and hopefully keeps the
Classic processor from crashing at the same time.
These PTCs have a maximum rated voltage that can be applied across them. It too
high of voltage is applied, they just get too hot and burn up. Since the PTC has a
voltage rating higher than the voltage it is meant to protect, they should only burn
up if something wrong happens in the wiring and somehow, higher voltage current
passes through the PTC.
So, make sure all your negative wire connections from power terminal block
to battery negative bus bars are nice and tight and have a good connection,
especially if the system has multiple Classics.
One bad thing that can happen if you lose a negative connection is that the
negative current will try and find another, lower resistance connection
back to the battery minus. This might be through, say, a phone cable
connecting two or more Classics together where one Classic has a good
negative connection and the other Classic has an open or poor negative
connection to battery minus... That networking phone cable has a negative
lead on it and can carry current for a moment and burn up real nicely if
this happens. If a USB cable is plugged into a Classic and the computer
is grounded and connected to battery negative, you could possibly burn out
a computer USB port.
Sure, we could put PTCs on every single negative pin on those connectors
but that would be hard to do, especially if we had to put a high voltage
PTC on them (not a small surface mount PTC !) which would have to
handle higher battery voltages instead of the normally low power
supply voltages of less than 16 volts DC or so. No room and not
inexpensive.
So, make sure your minus wires are tight before connecting communications
cables is a safe practice.
boB
Quote from: TomW on May 23, 2013, 06:30:18 PM
It must have been a combination of things because it is working now with battery voltage somewhat lower. It must have decided it did not need to push power into the batteries. All happened at the same time so I immediately blamed the upgrade.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
I hope you have finally figured this out (I'm sure you have).
This may be a completely Rookie statement on my part, and is prob. common knowledge to all the Pros in here, but on pg. 34 of the 150 Classic Manual in the
"Building a Wind Curve" Section, it states:
"....Keep in mind that the Minimum Voltage of Step 1 MUST be above the Wake-up voltage of the Classic, which is 33% higher than the Battery Voltage."Which really confuses things for us Newbs- Cuz that means if I've got a 12volt Battery bank,
Step 1 needs to be
16-17 Volts @ 0 Amps??
And
Step 2 needs to be
HIGHER??
But also needs to be the
Cut-in Voltage of the Turbine
AND the expected Current @ Cut in?
Thanks!
j-dub
See if this video helps to understand the wind curve editor a little bit more.
https://youtu.be/IpslcfvrT6c