Hi all,
We're looking to buy a classic charge controller to replace a Chinese one that we bought which is not sufficient for our requirements. My main concern is that we are running Lithium-Ion batteries as opposed to SLA. Would the classic work with these type of batteries?
Thanks,
Richard.
Yes, you bet !
This is possible because most Li ion batteries come with a BMS as standard. (Battery Management System)
The BMS is absolutely necessary for any serious Lithium ion battery system.
I think this has been covered in another thread so you may want to search for this topic.
boB
Thanks very much!
I tried searching but couldn't find anything! Your help is very appreciated.
Cheers,
Richard.
OK, maybe it was discussed on another forum ?
Basically, the BMS is required because if the Lithium batteries get unbalanced, different
voltage between cells, etc, individual cells can get very hot and lithium is hard to
put out if they catch on fire. (just ask Boeing !)
So, that is why they typically have this BMS. I will try to remember the few companies that
do well with Li Ion types of batteries. There was one in Australia than come in a lunch
box looking container.... Another one in the US we talked with that looks like a regular
battery, etc.
Sometimes all that is necessary is to adjust the Classic (or any charge controller) to
stop charging when the battery voltage gets to a certain point and then just stop.
Sometimes they need to tell the charge controller to stop themselves. This is why
the Aux 2 function can be set to turn off when its signal goes high. Don't know
the battery company's name on that one either. Somebody here asked for it
I thought ? Must have been that other forum !??
boB
No problem - thanks again!
Yeah I know about the balanced charging thing and I've (intentionally!) blown up a few small ones myself! ;)
We already have a bank (I think 4x) of very good Li-Ion batteries. I've seen them briefly but I didn't do the install. I'm sure they'll be fine though!
Thank you. :)
Here's a compairison of Lithium ion BMS's.
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php (http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php)
I just thought I'd follow up and mention...
We trialed a Classic, and couldn't get it to work! It turns out that whoever did the initial install had connected things the wrong way around (we were only upgrading the charge controller from an older Chinese one which didn't work as it was supposed to).
We swapped the Classic for a Studer unit, which is when we discovered the wiring problem. We decided to go ahead with keeping the Studer - while a similar price as the Classic (including the Studer LAN monitoring module) it is a fully sealed unit which is much more preferable for our environment. The unit is housed in a cabinet, however we have had issues with rodents and insects finding their way in (although I think I found where the mice were getting in) so a sealed unit was preferable for us. Yes we know that there are grill covers available for the Classic, but the Studer just seemed to be the best option for us. Also our supplier had never worked with MidNite units before and had no idea about programming them, whereas the Studers he sells a lot of and programmed it for us in his workshop. So for us the local support was much better for Studer also.
Thanks for everyone's help though!
Quote from: StrataNetNZ on November 24, 2013, 06:58:54 PM
I just thought I'd follow up and mention...
We trialed a Classic, and couldn't get it to work! It turns out that whoever did the initial install had connected things the wrong way around (we were only upgrading the charge controller from an older Chinese one which didn't work as it was supposed to).
You couldn't get it to work because the connections were wrong from previous install? So did you get it to work when the wiring was sorted out ?
Quote
We swapped the Classic for a Studer unit, which is when we discovered the wiring problem. We decided to go ahead with keeping the Studer - while a similar price as the Classic (including the Studer LAN monitoring module) it is a fully sealed unit which is much more preferable for our environment.
Interesting. When I looked at the two Studer charge controllers (60A and 80A) and the remote programming/metering unit the overall price was way way above a Classic 150. I always get suspicious of suppliers who will not openly publish prices and Reid Technology in NZ ask for an email enquiry. The overall specs were also not up to the Classic.
Quote
The unit is housed in a cabinet, however we have had issues with rodents and insects finding their way in (although I think I found where the mice were getting in) so a sealed unit was preferable for us. Yes we know that there are grill covers available for the Classic, but the Studer just seemed to be the best option for us.
I thought the Classic was both largely rodent and insect proof if unused knocked out knockouts are covered with the supplied grill vents.
And using proper cable glands where cables enter/exit preferably in some conduit will deny those openings to rodents/insects.
And for more serious infestations you can't beat a cat/rodent bait/insect traps etc
Although with opossum infestation her in NZ cables to PV arrays etc need to be in conduit and sometimes unchewable (metal) covers over PV junction boxes etc..
Quote
Also our supplier had never worked with MidNite units before and had no idea about programming them, whereas the Studers he sells a lot of and programmed it for us in his workshop. So for us the local support was much better for Studer also.
Well I suppose if you are locked into one supplier then you have little choice but to go with their product recommendations. Although the instructions and support for the Midnite Classic is excellent. Any reasonably competent technican would have no problems with the Classic.
dgd
Hi, I think it's easier for me to answer your questions with bullet points:
- Yes, unfortunately the wiring was a bit messed up on this one! We had already returned the Classic and swapped it for the Studer, and were more than happy with the Studer so we decided to stick with it. Also as an electronic engineer (solar normally isn't quite my thing!) I liked the Studer more as it uses proper toroids as opposed to solid state, as the Classic appears to be.
- For us the pricing was fairly similar, in fact I think the Studer was a touch cheaper. The only thing I'm not a fan of with the Studer is the web interface, however an upgrade was released last week and next time we're up at the site we're going to upgrade our unit. I'm expecting that this will make the web interface a lot more user friendly.
- Yes that's true, but it was just a hassle trying to get the grill covers etc, and our supplier was pushing us towards the Studer anyway. Haha and a cat is not an option for us as it's a site in the middle of a paddock about an hour from our office! As for rodent baits etc, while this isn't a bad idea, before a couple of months ago nobody had been to the site in about 3 years. Fortunately possums haven't been a pest for us (yet)!
- We're not hard and fast locked into one supplier, but that supplier has been very good all around - excellent advice and also lets us borrow new controllers when we need them, as well as crimpers etc.
Thanks for your input - always good to hear from a fellow NZer!
I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.
I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.
Quote from: cpm on January 01, 2014, 07:35:43 AM
I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.
I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.
Each battery will have its own specifications for charging of course so you would adjust the controller
to suit that spec.
Also, each Lithium battery should be contained in its own system with its own BMS (management) so
you should not have to worry too much about overcharging usually. Just do what they say to do
and if necessary, the Classic can take an input on Aux 2 (up to 15 volts) to tell it to stop and start
charging if the Li ion batteries' BMS requires that.
boB
Quote from: boB on January 01, 2014, 07:45:07 PM
Quote from: cpm on January 01, 2014, 07:35:43 AM
I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.
I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.
Each battery will have its own specifications for charging of course so you would adjust the controller
to suit that spec.
Also, each Lithium battery should be contained in its own system with its own BMS (management) so
you should not have to worry too much about overcharging usually. Just do what they say to do
and if necessary, the Classic can take an input on Aux 2 (up to 15 volts) to tell it to stop and start
charging if the Li ion batteries' BMS requires that.
boB
I'm not trying to be dense, I just can't help it.
But, a battery is a battery, and a lot of battery *packs* using cells of these technologies/chemistries will have a bms, sure.
But, , , again, what the heck is a lithium ion battery? There are *plenty* of things out there called lithium ion, that *don't* have BMS.
In the EV world especially, (where you find very interesting pricing).
For instance, 700ah balqon LiFePO4 cells go 'ding' at the cash register at a flat $700 + shipping, need 8 of'em for a solid 24v bank, that's (in round numbers) $3600 for a 17kwh 24v battery bank. Not too shabby given the duty cycle of these things, even at way deep (80% DoD) cycles.
But, there is No BMS, as you are buying cells, not a battery pack.
Quote from: cpm on January 02, 2014, 08:05:11 PM
For instance, 700ah balqon LiFePO4 cells go 'ding' at the cash register at a flat $700 + shipping, need 8 of'em for a solid 24v bank, that's (in round numbers) $3600 for a 17kwh 24v battery bank. Not too shabby given the duty cycle of these things, even at way deep (80% DoD) cycles.
Did you mean $5600 ? (rather than $3600)
Quote from: cpm on January 01, 2014, 07:35:43 AM
I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.
I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.
There is an excellent explanation on wiki of what Li-ion means and the different Lithium chemistries.
The lower density and safer Lithium Iron Phosphate type seems the most popular in RE systems with cell capacities from about 20Ah to over 1000Ah available.
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 03, 2014, 12:59:31 AM
The lower density and safer Lithium Iron Phosphate type seems the most popular in RE systems with cell capacities from about 20Ah to over 1000Ah available.
This is the technology I'm about to spring for myself. Initially a "modest" bank of 16 x 300AH cells. I figure that with a 66% DoD, that will give me the same "energy" out as 20% DoD with a 1000AH lead acid, in about 15% of the space.
If it works out as well as I hope it does, I will probably double it in a year (given the poor state of my existing AGMs, it should pay its way fairly quickly in reduced generator run hours)
Quote from: Westbranch on January 02, 2014, 09:22:44 PM
Quote from: cpm on January 02, 2014, 08:05:11 PM
For instance, 700ah balqon LiFePO4 cells go 'ding' at the cash register at a flat $700 + shipping, need 8 of'em for a solid 24v bank, that's (in round numbers) $3600 for a 17kwh 24v battery bank. Not too shabby given the duty cycle of these things, even at way deep (80% DoD) cycles.
Did you mean $5600 ? (rather than $3600)
Uhh, yeah, probably.
:)
Quote from: dgd on January 03, 2014, 12:59:31 AM
Quote from: cpm on January 01, 2014, 07:35:43 AM
I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.
I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.
There is an excellent explanation on wiki of what Li-ion means and the different Lithium chemistries.
The lower density and safer Lithium Iron Phosphate type seems the most popular in RE systems with cell capacities from about 20Ah to over 1000Ah available.
dgd
I suppose that's kinda my point.
Li-Ion is practically meaningless when trying to sort out the hows and whys of a battery bank.
There are a *lot* (relatively) of different chemistries, each with their own requirements.
I always balk when I read something has a Li Ion battery. Some Li Ion stuff does bad things, some does good things, all do expensive (though that is changing) things.
So, when the question is "Classic with Lithium Ion" I'm very curious "Which Lithium Ion?" as I too am very curious about using
LiFePO4. But that may not be what folks are using, maybe they are using some other Li Ion chemistry.
Quote from: cpm on January 03, 2014, 08:20:43 PMSo, when the question is "Classic with Lithium Ion" I'm very curious "Which Lithium Ion?" as I too am very curious about using
LiFePO4. But that may not be what folks are using, maybe they are using some other Li Ion chemistry.
In case it's of any help to you,
as far as I know these are the Li-Pos that we're using: http://aasolar.co.nz/AA%20Solar%20Lithium%20Deep%20Cycle%20Batteries.html
Cheers! :)
Quote from: StrataNetNZ on January 05, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
In case it's of any help to you, as far as I know these are the Li-Pos that we're using: http://aasolar.co.nz/AA%20Solar%20Lithium%20Deep%20Cycle%20Batteries.html
these are the LiFeYPo4 types.
Did you get a battery management system for these cells, that does cell charge balancing? Have you configured them as a single string?
I know that AA Solar advertise they can be charged with a normal lead acid battery charging system that goes through Bulk, Absorb and Float stages and they can even be EQ charged as necessary.
I'm interested in what you are doing with these apart from having your Studer CC provide the charge current.
Quote from: dgd on January 05, 2014, 06:53:21 PMDid you get a battery management system for these cells, that does cell charge balancing? Have you configured them as a single string?
I know that AA Solar advertise they can be charged with a normal lead acid battery charging system that goes through Bulk, Absorb and Float stages and they can even be EQ charged as necessary.
I'm interested in what you are doing with these apart from having your Studer CC provide the charge current.
I don't think we have a battery management system. If I'm not mistaken, we just have two 6V batteries in series (although we're doing some major maintenance soon and this may change). AA Solar set the unit up for us; I don't know a heck of a lot about solar controllers. I was simply upgrading the controller from a cheap Chinese one that we originally had that wasn't doing what it was supposed to do.
Basically the Studer charges the bank and we also have the LAN monitoring unit attached so that we can remotely keep an eye on voltages and charge current etc - this is what the previous unit failed to do (even though the specifications clearly stated that it would!). After countless emails to and from the manufacturer in China who didn't understand their products enough we decided to do away with the Chinese chargers altogether.
We have this set up to run a wireless transmission tower in a rural area.
I hope this answers your questions! :)
StrataNetNZ,
Could I ask just what Chinese controller you are replacing, sounds a lot like EP Solar eTracer. I know the units well, I have 4 Tracers, anything you ask them they will respond with "How many units do you want?" They don't even know what an L-16 House Lighting battery is. At least they are consistent.
tecno
You're right on the money there! Yes, they're the eTracer units. The people at EP Solar really are quite frustrating huh?
The specifications clearly state that they work over a routed network, when they do not. I've figured out that EP Solar's understanding of a routed network is plugging the eTracer and client computer into a router together - this is not routing! So for the network techs out there, they work over layer 2 ok but NOT layer 3! :(
Much frustration in trying to figure that out so hopefully this might help someone else! I've successfully used Studer and MidNite Classic over L3 with no issues.
Quote from: StrataNetNZ on January 05, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
You're right on the money there! Yes, they're the eTracer units. The people at EP Solar really are quite frustrating huh?
My big mistake was thinking I had found a good controller and buying more of them instead of buying real stuff, I still have two Tracers in service but bought a Classic 150 to replace them. I just got a beta Kid so I am keeping one Tracer to do direct comparisons, but the Kid is beating up the Tracer up in many areas, not only in support, the Tracer is not programmable at all. I had considered buying a 60 amp eTracer but at more money than the bare bones Morningstar it was no deal. (eTracer $489. USD vs Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 at $485 USD) I ended up spending $90. USD more for the Classic 150 and do not regret it. EP Solar does list a remote programmer for the eTracer but their engineers do not know anything about it! It is amazing how little they know about their own product.
I did get a response from another NZer about dealers having bins full of dead Tracers and eTracers, maybe that is where they belong!
If you get a chance to look at the manual for the Morningstar TS-MPPT line you will find many areas that are exactly copied in the eTracer manual, A completely copied product? Well not the quality or support!
td
Well that all sounds ridiculous! We've had a total of 3 eTracers - one which has been replaced with the Studer (it was still working, we just needed L3). At our other solar site the eTracer was packing up (kept saying current error) so we've replaced it with another for the time being (waiting for grid power to be connected so that we can remove it but the power company are stuffing us around with it!). Our supplier has been happy with the reliability of them, and was very surprised that ours was faulty. Sometimes the error would come up within minutes, other times it would take a couple of weeks. Obviously our supplier came back saying they think it's fine... :-\
I'm not sure where you stand with Morningstar but our supplier now steers clear of them because they've had reliability issues. Apparently we also had one that died which we replaced with the eTracer (before my time here though).
The Classic 150 was a nice unit and I did like playing around with it for the time that we had it. Support has been great too - unlike the EP Solar people!
:edit: Sorry, I think we had a Classic 250. :)
By the way, we now have a couple of TPDIN Web Monitors, which I've been very happy with! We're starting to put these in at our non-solar sites that have battery backup so that we can see what the battery banks are up to. They can't handle much DC current (we're using 60A and 80A chargers) but they can tell us the voltage and with a secondary power supply they can tell you if the grid goes down. They have flexible email alerts too - very handy!
http://tyconpower.com/products/systems.htm#TPDIN-Monitor-WEB
I do have one Morningstar and have absolutely no issues with it but it is a 30 amp PWM controller that is not at all suitable for my CdTe panels, that is why I bought the Tracers in the first place but they will not properly charge my main bank of L-16's. I use the Morningstar on a 110 watt backup system. Feature for feature the Classic 150 was the hands down winner. I looked at the Studer but they are very expensive here on the left coast. (Of the States)
td
Fair enough!
Quote from: tecnodave on January 05, 2014, 09:46:35 PMI looked at the Studer but they are very expensive here on the left coast. (Of the States)
Yep, with the Classics being made in US you probably get a very good price for them - here in NZ the Classics and Studers (including LAN module) are quite similar in price! Without the LAN module then the Studers are far cheaper than Classics here.
Off the top of my head (in NZ dollars) the 80A Studer is about a grand and the Classic 250 is $1,700... :-\ The Studer LAN module was another $600 or so I think...
eTracers are $800, for comparison.
I went to the website and looked at your monitors, very interesting. My system is very local and I am using the Whizbanj jr. With the Classic 150 as well as a several Bogart Engineering Tri-Metric monitors on my system. I really don't need remote monitoring as I am very local, I work within 15 miles of home base here in Santa Cruz County, California, left coast, USA, third rock, Milky Way.
td
Haha cool :) We're a wireless internet service provider and have several rural transmission towers, most of which are at least an hours' drive away! So if battery levels are getting low then we need to know well in advance :)
That is a Hugh difference the Studer here was more than $1400 with taxes, duties and all. I paid $610. For my Classic 150 from Northern Arizona Wind Sun , no tax and $629.00 to my door!
Quote from: tecnodave on January 05, 2014, 10:01:32 PM
That is a Hugh difference the Studer here was more than $1400 with taxes, duties and all. I paid $610. For my Classic 150 from Northern Arizona Wind Sun , no tax and $629.00 to my door!
Nice! But wow that is fairly steep for the Studer!
Oh how well I understand, I used to do land mobile two radio and have driven to many a mountain top and snowmobiles to a few to service two radio equipment in California and in Alaska before that, remote monitoring is a blessing in that instance. I did communications from 1965 thru 1980 before the Internet was popular. We rigged CCTV cameras to monitor equipment back then.
td
Quote from: tecnodave on January 05, 2014, 10:06:28 PM
Oh how well I understand, I used to do land mobile two radio and have driven to many a mountain top and snowmobiles to a few to service two radio equipment in California and in Alaska before that, remote monitoring is a blessing in that instance. I did communications from 1965 thru 1980 before the Internet was popular. We rigged CCTV cameras to monitor equipment back then.
td
That's awesome! If only my job could involve snow mobiles! :) No snow for miles from here (gotta head quite far South, being this side of the hemisphere)! We do a little bit of surveillance on the side too. :)
After buying Chinese I wanted equipment that would be supported and when I checked on MidNite I found that they were involved in several companies that I know well, I have Bob Carver stereo gear that robin worked on when he was much younger as well as Phase Linear and Trace Inverters so I know their quality well. Having done electricity sinse 1965 I do appreciate high quality gear. I am surprised at myself for buying that Chinese stuff when I know full well of the quality coming out of China. As to the Studer I could find only one dealer in the US. I was set on the Morningstar until I discovered MidNite.
Well you can have all the snow you want, I was born and raised in the backwoods of Alaska, had 21 years of it before I moved to the lower 48! Love California but I do go bakk to Alaska for the freedom and awesome fishin! Just can't beat backwoods Alaska fishin! 50 pound Salmon just jumpin on the hook, but when the snow gets to 18 inches I am outta there!
Yeah, before this job I worked in an electronics shop and most of the stuff we sold was re-branded Chinese stuff. Most of it was absolute rubbish! We got the odd thing that worked well but most things were unreliable or lacked functionality. And it's pretty hard to sell a product that you have no faith in!
And Alaska sounds great - I'd love to head there eventually to see what it's like. The snow is quite a luxury for us!
I've worked in electronics since the mid 60's but was always into the high end stuff, I never did consumer stuff. There is a Hugh difference in quality. I did bush plane radios, land mobile, early car phones, marine, etc. Did a lot of time at Motorola so I am spoiled, I have never liked doing consumer grade built for a price. In communications it was always made in USA with few exceptions.
Alaska is so beautiful in the summer you fall in love with it but winters take their toll, if you go don't before June and leave before October, the winters are brutal. I did 23 of them, that is why I am here on the left coast, but when the fishing is good, I get that Alaska fever again. Tall young mountains and sea level valleys full of wildlife that is a experience that most people never forget.
I guess I will need to research NZ some more, I thought you were south enough to get some snow there. I remember snowmobiling up to Blue Ridge Mountain at 8000 feet in Southern California (south east of Los Angeles)to service a radio repeater there, of course because I had more experience in the snow I was volunteered to do that job.
I do like snow but 86 below at Fairbanks is a bit much. I have also seen 55 feet of snow and snowstorms that were a total whiteout. You could not even go out into it ,you would get lost and they find you in the spring. Alaska has more satellite dishes and DVD's per capita than anywhere in the world! Cabin fever! The first time we got a sunrise in the spring there would be a huge party! In the middle of June the sun is high in the sky by 3:00 am and sets at 11:30pm, never gets dark ,hard to sleep, we used blackout curtains. I miss it but not the brutal winters.
Yeah, I tend to try an avoid the unknowns as far as brands go!
I could imagine that the snow could be trouble! -86 sounds like a lot (of course I had to Google it to convert to Celsius, haha)! Crazy that the days are so long there too!
We definitely have a fair bit of snow in NZ, but nowhere near Auckland where we're located (which is great considering all the wireless gear that we use up here!). The North Island only gets snow on the mountains, but I know the South Island sees a lot of snow further down - but I've never been down that way in the Winter. I've seen it on Lord of the Rings and plenty of photos though! :P
I have been running an Off-Grid Home for over 200 days now on LiFePo4 Batteries. 16 cells. 100aH each. Comes out to a 5kWh bank. Which is more than enough for me when I use on average 2 throughout the day and only need the capacity at night. I have a 2000watt array and a 200V midnite solar charge controller. Of course living in the mountains in Colorado, I luck out without having to need huge days worth of backup.
I would say, the Midnite Solar CC works great. Having the ability to modify all the voltages makes it perfect for 'custom' chemistries.
As far as LiFePo4 is concerned. You do not need a BMS, but you do have to be determined in the beginning to make sure they are all bottom balanced before you string them all together for their first charge. So long as you bottom balanced them, they do not drift from each other or self-discharge etc.
:)
A few points,
The grills for the classic charge controller are included they should be in the box. We all make mistakes but it makes me wonder when a installer can't wire up a simple charge controller correctly. I know little of the other brand you ended up with but you usually get what you pay for so im sure its a nice unit. I can agree the price variance across the globe needs to be taken into consideration it can make a difference. If NZ pricing is anything like AU a classic is around $1000 or so. Yes I see them online over in the US for $600 US but then there is shipping to add on. A charge controller is the kind of product you want local back up for if there was a issue so I don't mind paying the premium for that.
Regarding the lithium (lifepo4) basically the BMS is just the last resort kill switch if things go astray. Voltage (somtimes temp is its a good one) to high, low on any cell then it pulls the pin and its lights out ;D. With a reliable charge controller like the classic you really just need to tweak the voltage limits to avoid both ends and the BMS shouldn't come it to play at all unless something went wrong. A well balance pack and reasonable conservative charge profile avoiding the knee at both ends and you should have a very stable pack without the need for much balancing work. With a initial balance things should stay in check regarding balance again if you avoided the knee (perhaps sacrificing 5 o 10% capacity by doing so) Some bms will include a balancing build into the BMS but typically on large cells (on cell) balancing shunts that run interdependently are more common. Often with a conservative charge voltage limits the balancing will not be activated and a once a month charge to the trigger point of the balancing board is all that is needed to keep a pack in check.
Given the criteria for charge controller that is compatible with lithium battery is one that has full user control voltage limits at all stages of charging and the classic has this its more than compatible with lithium.
When my 63kwh of lead acid is retired I will be going to lithium cells as many have already.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on January 31, 2014, 07:17:47 AM
When my 63kwh of lead acid is retired I will be going to lithium cells as many have already.
I'm just waiting on my "starter kit" to arrive.
16 x 300AH LiFePO4 cells (about 14kWh).
Cell balancers (not merely the "this cell is full, waste power as heat" cell levelers) arrived yesterday and a quick test on the bench looks good.
I will be downsizing to from 48V 1300Ah 2v cells (lead acid ) to 400Ah at 48V around 20kwh of lithium made up of 16 x 400Ah Calb lifpo4 cells being charged by two classic 150's and 8.2kw of PV.
I just cant kill the flooded lead acid. At them moment I am doing my best to give them a hard time. Running the house, Charging a Electric car and running a workshop, plasma cutters, welders and so on but they keep on ticking...to much sunshine here in QLD Australia. They are just on 6 years old I am guessing they will last another 4 years then its lithium.
No one ever regrets going to lithium cells.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on February 01, 2014, 04:55:41 AM
I will be downsizing to from 48V 1300Ah 2v cells (lead acid ) to 400Ah at 48V around 20kwh of lithium made up of 16 x 400Ah Calb lifpo4 cells being charged by two classic 150's and 8.2kw of PV.
I just cant kill the flooded lead acid. At them moment I am doing my best to give them a hard time. Running the house, Charging a Electric car and running a workshop, plasma cutters, welders and so on but they keep on ticking...to much sunshine here in QLD Australia. They are just on 6 years old I am guessing they will last another 4 years then its lithium.
No one ever regrets going to lithium cells.
Kurt
Kurt;
I am at the end of life on my 450 AH 24 Volt traction battery set at 11 years in use.
I have been looking into lead acids to replace but lithium is looking vert tasty to me. A bit expensive but seem to be more tolerant of (a)buse. It also seems like you can mix different age batteries if you want to upscale your capacity after you have had them awhile?
We hope to go off grid one day soon and lifespan and deep discharges may push me into lithium as they seem to provide longer service and more KW in / out for the cost but still not sure. I am not real big on being the guinea pig for expensive new technologies so I hope it is true that no one regrets going lithium!.
Tom
Kurt, have you looked into this option, the small 5Kw/10Kwh unit that can be 'stacked'? Very interesting...
http://redflow.com/
Quote from: offgridQLD on January 31, 2014, 07:17:47 AMThe grills for the classic charge controller are included they should be in the box. We all make mistakes but it makes me wonder when a installer can't wire up a simple charge controller correctly. I know little of the other brand you ended up with but you usually get what you pay for so im sure its a nice unit. I can agree the price variance across the globe needs to be taken into consideration it can make a difference. If NZ pricing is anything like AU a classic is around $1000 or so. Yes I see them online over in the US for $600 US but then there is shipping to add on. A charge controller is the kind of product you want local back up for if there was a issue so I don't mind paying the premium for that.
Our grills weren't included - when I asked, our provider said that they're an option that you buy separately (and yes reading online they were supposed to be supplied).
Basically the issue was is that when the system was first installed a few years ago, the polarity of the panel outputs was mixed up, resulting in blue for positive and red for negative. Very confusing when someone else (in this case me) comes along and tries to change the controller over! :-\
I think the Classic 250 was $1,700 over here! It was a while ago so I can't recall exactly but it wasn't a cheap unit, that's for sure! And yeah, our supplier doesn't really deal with them so advised against them anyway.
Q?. Did you remove all the styrofoam in the carton, there are some holes in the bottom of one of the pieces that hold those screens...I made the mistake of saying they weren't there too... felt a fool...
QuoteBasically the issue was is that when the system was first installed a few years ago, the polarity of the panel outputs was mixed up, resulting in blue for positive and red for negative. Very confusing when someone else (in this case me) comes along and tries to change the controller over! :-\
Ok I was under the impression you had some one supply and install the classic. A multimeter is your friend when doing this kind of work.
Yikes $1700 does sound high. Not sure what the NZ $ exchange rate is at the moment but they were around $1000 AU a few month back when the AU $ was about parity with the US.
QuoteKurt, have you looked into this option, the small 5Kw/10Kwh unit that can be 'stacked'? Very interesting...
http://redflow.com/
I think you will pay a premium for a package like that. Often they are nice solutions for company's that want a turnkey solution that complyes with all the regulations they need to Get the job done and cover there back sides.
Personally I just want to strip things back to just the raw cells with the minimum of additions to keep things in check. At the moment value wise. The cells coming out of china from company's like Calb/Winston (china aviation lithium) Are priced well and are proving to be very reliable in the diy EV world so I have some confidence in them as a House bank as the demands are much less than than a EV traction pack needs to support. I can obtain the cells locally from a EV parts suppler with warranty. Same place can also supply a simple and reliable BMS along with cell level cell top balancing boards.
A local long time member and of a renewable forum I post on who has been living off grid for many years on lead acid has switched to the above package more than 12 months ago and is over the moon with the results. He went for 16, 400Ah cells but 2p for 24v 800Ah.
I like the large cell formats in the 400AH + range. I might even consider 700AH cells. I don't need the capacity for the house but it would give me some reserve to do a full charge of my electric car (over night) one issue of having a EV and living off grid is the odd time you want to charge the car overnight the lead acid doesn't like you pulling 10 - 12kw from it at 2200w for 5hrs+. So it's daytime charging with large PV array to keep the stress off the lead acid and the classic 150 resupply most of the load directly when the lead is in float. With lithium sucking 30% or 50% of the capacity overnight at a high C rate isn't a issue.
Kurt
At the cost of PV , too bad you couldn't get a second EV, cheap, so you could have a dedicated Array(s) and drive one while the other charges...
I have 8.2kw of pv and lots of sun so no real need for a dedicated ev array. A 2nd ev is 25 - 50k but upping the capacity of the house bank by 15 - 20kwh is only 6 - 8k and it can come in handy for other times.
Its not that often I need to charge at night usually one full charge is enough for a few days driving or I can just top up a little in the morning to recover the km travel day before. Though a few times I have found myself wanting to go on a 100km+ trip first thing in the morning and my pack was say only 1/2 full , that's where lithium house bank and the ability to cycle it deeper over night (now and then) is a big advantage.
Kurt
Quote from: StrataNetNZ on February 02, 2014, 04:27:29 PM
I think the Classic 250 was $1,700 over here! It was a while ago so I can't recall exactly but it wasn't a cheap unit, that's for sure! And yeah, our supplier doesn't really deal with them so advised against them anyway.
That pricing does not surprise me as there would be a few people clipping the ticket before you get the Classic but that price would include the 15% gst and no doubt all sorts of courier fees as it gets shipper between distributor, dealers and end suppliers.
Some shopping around could get the Classic 250 for about $950 plus gst.
Still not good pricing as you can get a Classic 250 imported for about NZ$800 (inc shipping) and often it will come through customs tax free :)
dgd
Speaking of capacity My lead acid cells are rated as follows
C120 to 1.80Vpc - 1460
C100 to 1.85Vpc - 1330
C20 to 1.85Vpc - 950
C10 to 1.80Vpc - 840
C5 to 1.70Vpc - 760
Trouble with a big bank that hasn't seen more than 10% DOD in is life is it can mask its health. One day I really should put a constant load on the bank and do a capacity test on them to see how they are holding up after 6 years. I'm sure they are only a shadow of there former self :D
I would be over the moon if I could even get 1/2 of the c10 (50kwh) capacity from my bank at c10 loads. :(
I think the reason most batteries designed for renewable energy applications are quoted at the C100 rate is because that charge/discharge profile most closely resembles the actual use these batteries get in most installations.
So I would base your calculations on the 1330 AH capacity.
Also since you say that your bank gets not more than 10% DOD then I suspect you rarely get the bank voltage to that 1.85v per cell.
Also after six years at this relatively light (normal RE) usage I doubt very much your cells are 'just a shadow of their former selves'. They are probably in quite good condition and if you keep them reasonably well charged and serviced on a regular basis I could easily see 10,12,15 years or longer service life.
I always found battery capacity calculations vs battery age a very inexact science and there is no doubt that they lose some capacity over time BUT if they do not get sulphated, dry out, abused, frozen, overheated or configured in parallel strings then barring catastrophic failure they seem to last a long time.
Especially the higher capacity cell types. Thats why I only ever bought 1000+ AH cells as I have seen way too many r220s and L16s or their equivalents dead in 2 to 6 years.
I also never considered AGM or sealed types, again short life as they invariably dry out compared to flooded types
Just IMHO
dgd
630W is the c100 load so yes true it would be a good (average).
I think I will do a limited capacity test on them this weekend. They will be on float when I get there on Friday. I might try turning off the PV and let them charge my EV 2200w load that will suck 15kwh or so out of them that's about 30% of there capacity at a c10 load. Would be interesting to see how they perform.
Kurt.
Kurt,
It will be interesting to see how they cope with this load.
I remember reading elsewhere on the forum where flooded lead acid battery banks probably benefit from an occasional 20 to 30% depth discharge. I do this every couple of months and I always notice the resting voltage after a day's PV input via Classic leaves the bank at a slightly higher resting voltage. The same happens after a day or so of sunless dull weather.
With my 'getting old' bank I was advised by the manufacturer to increase the float and absorb voltages from 26.4 to 27.4v and 28.6 to 29v and do a 3 monthly EQ at 31v
dgd
Kurt, Do you have a website of your set up and the EV??
- Cloud
QuoteKurt, Do you have a website of your set up and the EV??
- Cloud
Sorry Claud,
Most of the info and discussion around my offgrid system and EV is a jumble of threads scattered across local EV and off grid forums including this forum. I really should look into putting together some kind of webpage or blog so I can compile the basic rundown in one location.
I have managed to stay away from most of the social media. Any suggestions on a simple free place to host this kind of webpage or blog? It might be a interesting little project for me (sure better than watching repeats on TV ;D)
Kurt
So from NZ how do you get hold of these Calb cells? When i looked at AA solar lithium last year the price made my eyes water.
Quote from: zoneblue on February 05, 2014, 10:11:07 PM
So from NZ how do you get hold of these Calb cells? When i looked at AA solar lithium last year the price made my eyes water.
CALB is China Aviation lithium Batteries IIRC. I was going to get mine from them too, but they were absolutely pathetic about communications - faulty addresses on contact page, skype addresses that didn't reply for weeks.
HiPower had better prices and similar range, also replied promptly to requests for information.
I initially tried to contact CALB over 3 weeks before I tried to contact HiPower. CALB finally responded 4 hours after I placed my order with HiPower.
Kurt,
You could just use a simple blogger website. Such as Blogspot. My own page is thestayathomegardener.blogspot.com
I use it to show a bit of gardening stuff and lately me building a tiny house with solar etc.
I'm not sure where you would get the Calbs in NZ. I purchased mine from a reseller. EVTV.me. It seemed a safer deal than having things shipped directly and wiring money. (As I've been watching these guys convert classic cars to electric drive for years now.)
- Cloud
PS. Kurt. I am mainly interested in your Solar powered (through separate pv, not as in they are on the car roof!) EV.
Great to see more people moving to Lithium batteries. The more I see about their performance and lifetime, the more impressed I am!
I'm NZ based too. End of last year I ordered 16x 400Ah Sinopoly LiFePO4 batteries directly from Sinopoly in Hong Kong/China. All went well and they were delivered 6 weeks after I paid for them. According to the provided QC sheets the batteries range in capacity from ~480-495Ah. I can't measure capacity (yet) but all the other measurements (weight, cell voltage etc) are spot on.
I had similar communication issues with CALB which cost them a sale. Sinopoly has been much more helpful and has been a pleasure to deal with. Very impressed with the quality of everything Sinopoly - the boxes the cells came in, solid copper cell straps and high grade stainless bolts.
I purchased 2x Midnite Classic 200 (1x Classic and 1x Classic Lite) from the USA. Total landed cost was about $1800. For current NZ distributor pricing see http://indepower.co.nz/docs/price_list.pdf
keppelk,
I am just waiting delivery of sixteen Sinopoly 400Ah Lithium cells, the price was just too good compared to local LiFePO4 suppliers. I had some of the 300Ah Yittrium types that I have since sold on. They were expensive.
The Midnite RRP pricing in NZ is just way too expensive and its so easy to buy from NAWS or AltE you would think the NZ distributors could do something better. But I suppose they don't need to, no local alternate supplier :(
dgd (also in NZ)
Quote from: dgd on February 13, 2014, 04:15:17 PM
I am just waiting delivery of sixteen Sinopoly 400Ah Lithium cells
Mine just arrived this morning.. (300AH).
I just need to wrangle some time to put them in place, hook them up and let 'em fly!