Is it a bit too soon to ask if there is any info available on the KID Clipper and how it interfaces to the KID?
dgd
The simple answer is that the load output can be used and programmed as a clipper.
I don't know how much current myself, yet.
boB
So the KID will divert the turbine output to the load connections, where there will be a DC load?
What a neat solution :)
I look forward to using KID with a 700W 24v turbine
dgd
DGD
That is correct. There are 3 female connectors on the Kid for a 2 bladed fuse. Depending on which two of them you insert the fuse into will dictate if the Battery or the Input is being diverted. When using it as a clipper you will likely need to buy the resistor box from us as it will need a snubber circuit in it to protect the Kid from voltage spikes when clipping. boB and Mario will have more to say there I am sure.
Ryan
Ryan,
This diversion function would give the KID features way beyond anything I have seen with other mppt controllers in this size and price range. The option to divert power from the battery bank or input power to the load outputs is excellent. Others only seem to allow battery power to the load output.
The turbine support with this diversion, even if it needs an MN resistor box/controller, is also a welcome feature.
Can't wait ;)
dgd
I had to think about the last comments a bit..... You will definitely need to use the MidNite Clipper load. The KID will self destruct if using a plain old resistor. There isn't enough profit built into the KID to be helping people try to save a few bucks by building their own load. The results would be bad in some cases, so it will definitely be a MidNite product.
I didn't realize that we would be doing load diversion off the battery? I suppose we can though. You won't want to do that for a turbine or hydro though as you would want to use the MPPT function. What configuration would you be doing PWM load diversion in? Heating water might work, but the KID isn't a large controller. What other configurations would it be useful for? (We need more info for the manual)
By the way, I heard that Mario and Andrews drag and drop code uploader is now functional. That is a major breakthrough. I think we will be sending out Beta units as early as next week. The code won't be totally done, but upgrading is supposed to be much easier than the Classic. I got to play with Classic #3 in Hawaii last week. It is really a nice controller. Just sophisticated enough to be really versatile, but it isn't intimidating. It appears to be solid as a rock too.
I attached a picture of the KID system that I built in the living room so I could learn to use the KID and help write the manual. How many of you on the forum are taking advantage of the beta program? Did I mention that you get a lifetime warranty with the purchase of a beta KID? You can probably twist our arm for a free WhizBang Jr also. The KID is going to be a big deal in the industry!
Quote from: Robin on December 10, 2013, 12:41:11 AM
I attached a picture of the KID system that I built in the living room so I could learn to use the KID and help write the manual. How many of you on the forum are taking advantage of the beta program? Did I mention that you get a lifetime warranty with the purchase of a beta KID? You can probably twist our arm for a free WhizBang Jr also. The KID is going to be a big deal in the industry!
Nice - a marine Kid. So does that mean your living room is on a boat? ;)
Looking forward to my beta Kid. I may have to plug it into one of my Classics spots for early testing since I will need to wait until warmer weather before I put my next array or hydro system in. It was 10 degrees F at our place here in the Olympic foothills 2 days ago!
Did you say free WBJr? Whose arm do I twist...
The deals just keep getting better all the time, That does look like water past the dock!
td
Quote from: Robin on December 10, 2013, 12:41:11 AM
I had to think about the last comments a bit..... You will definitely need to use the MidNite Clipper load. The KID will self destruct if using a plain old resistor. There isn't enough profit built into the KID to be helping people try to save a few bucks by building their own load. The results would be bad in some cases, so it will definitely be a MidNite product.
That makes sense. The Clipper load will probably be wirewound resistors and need, as Ryam says, snubber circuitry to eliminate inductive voltage spikes.
Quote
I didn't realize that we would be doing load diversion off the battery? I suppose we can though. You won't want to do that for a turbine or hydro though as you would want to use the MPPT function. What configuration would you be doing PWM load diversion in? Heating water might work, but the KID isn't a large controller. What other configurations would it be useful for? (We need more info for the manual)
With LOAD connections on the KID I assume his would allow the KID to monitor DC current to DC loads. I assume this current would come from the battery or if there is power input from PVs or whatever then this would contribute to the required load current.
The KID would then know exactly how much power is being used to charge the battery and adjust the charging time as required.
It seems also that the LOAD connections are fuse protected. The docs would need to explain suitable loads, small inverter, lighting etc and warn against inductive loads such as small heaters using wirewould resistor type elements.
There is also the possibility of rte KID charging two seperate batteries such as a house battery and starter battery in an RV or boat..etc.
The KIDs LOAD connects to the second battery and could feed a fixed small current, an amp or so or configurable amount. Or perhaps when the main battery gets to Absorb/Float the KID Pwms power to the LOAD battery.
Quote
...
Did I mention that you get a lifetime warranty with the purchase of a beta KID? You can probably twist our arm for a free WhizBang Jr also. The KID is going to be a big deal in the industry!
Will the KID be able to interface to the WBjr to manage battery charging etc..
dgd
I was just thinking how this load diversion from the KID could find other spplications.
One that came to mind is the small mixed pv/wind turbine system.
A small PV array, say 1Kw in 24v battery bank using KID in solar mode. If the turbine, say 700W or less, is connected directly to battery then if pvs and turbine are providing power the KID will go through normal charge cycle and may send no pv power to bank if turbine is making power. So the KID could have its diversion mode to take power from the battery bank to the Clipper load hence keeping the battery at the Float or Absorb voltage and prevent overcharging.
The turbine will be happy always seeing the battery voltage. Although with some interesting use of the AUX output, especially if it can PWM,
a 3 phase turbine could be loaded with an SSR and resistors on its AC inputs before the rectifier. Maybe there is a potential option for a Midnite small AC Clipper for the KID that can deal with up to 700W AC turbines ;)
Having the ability to use the Clipper as a battery Clipper would be ideal for weirdo PVs such as the CdTe types.
All this depends of course on the current max that can be sent out the load connectors on the KID
dgd
DGD
You are correct the KID does work with the WBjr. You are also correct that the possibilities are huge with this thing. I to can see the Clipper circuit driving a Solid state 3 phase relay to PWM the 3 phases of a turbine. And at 30 amps on a 48 volt battery that's a 1500 watt turbine. Now we are cooking with Electric...
Ryan
Quote from: Halfcrazy on December 11, 2013, 05:27:06 AM
Now we are cooking with Electric...
Its nice that you can say that here... A couple of folks have been banned over at NAWS for discussing off-grid electric cooking.
--vtMaps (still cooking with propane) :(
Trust me no one will "EVER" be banned on this forum for cooking with Electric. 8)
Quote from: vtmaps on December 11, 2013, 05:44:24 AM
Its nice that you can say that here... A couple of folks have been banned over at NAWS for discussing off-grid electric cooking.
--vtMaps (still cooking with propane) :(
Now that seems harsh? We are not 100% off grid (yet) but use RE to cook with our toaster oven when the power is available. Much better than propane and heating the big oven. I know of more than one person using electric to cook that are off grid, too so it can be done.
Tom
Quote from: Halfcrazy on December 11, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
Trust me no one will "EVER" be banned on this forum for cooking with Electric. 8)
I like NAWS and there are some smart people over there ...... BUT, this forum is much more polite and friendly to be apart of.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on December 11, 2013, 05:27:06 AM
DGD
You are correct the KID does work with the WBjr. You are also correct that the possibilities are huge with this thing. I to can see the Clipper circuit driving a Solid state 3 phase relay to PWM the 3 phases of a turbine. And at 30 amps on a 48 volt battery that's a 1500 watt turbine. Now we are cooking with Electric...
My thinking was stuck at 24volts. At 48v with the KID then we are looking at decent turbines... So the current 1500 watt ac clipper could be possibly used here. I would still think a smaller/cheaper under 1kw ac clipper might have potential as under 1kw turbines are very popular.
Dgd
From the first moment i laid eyes on a classic i thought to myself that the ideal charge controller would have twin output stages. One for the battery, and one for the surplus. Decent filtering on both. That way you can use the surplus, which would act more like a current source, than a voltage regulator, for whatever you want. I suppose the other way to acheive that is an external regulator device, which i can see myself building sooner or later.
Also did i hear mention of a mark 3 classic? Wanna say some more about it?
Quote from: Robin on December 10, 2013, 12:41:11 AM
By the way, I heard that Mario and Andrews drag and drop code uploader is now functional. That is a major breakthrough. I think we will be sending out Beta units as early as next week.
I attached a picture of the KID system that I built in the living room so I could learn to use the KID and help write the manual. How many of you on the forum are taking advantage of the beta program? Did I mention that you get a lifetime warranty with the purchase of a beta KID? You can probably twist our arm for a free WhizBang Jr also. The KID is going to be a big deal in the industry!
I'm on Bo's beta list. Free WBJr. ? Twist....Twist....Twist.... :) :)
We don't see any issue with cooking with electric. Solar panels have gotten so cheap, it can make sense. Who wants to be lugging propane bottles around anyway. By the way, if you think cooking with solar is bad, you will really think I am crazy. Someone mentioned the small little system I have here in Hawaii for testing the KID. They saw what looked like water in the back ground. I will attach a picture here of the view from the house. I included this so you can see the hot tub. Some time when I get enough time and energy, there will be four wind turbines mounted about 5 feet off the ground. We have some awful trade winds here that blow up to 60mph. 20 to 30mph is very common. What am I going to do with these turbines..... heat the hot tub of course! I have four Chinook 200 watt turbines sitting in the garage and a Classic or two laying around. If I procrastinate long enough the system may turn into four 1000 watt MidNite turbines each with its own KID and Clipper? Heck, that sounds like enough power to think about trying to heat the pool too?
Procrastinating for me is not a problem while here in Hawaii.
Robin, I would think the only that should be laying around, in Hawaii, is you... especially during Christmas break... HNY too
Is there a reason to use a clipper if the turbines are dedicated to pool heating, rather than just the hot tub? I would think that heat sink should absorb all you would produce.
The Clipper is required because my wife doesn't want to listen to a bunch of noisy wind turbines 60 feet outside the bedroom window. I can dial the speed down.
Ok, so it appears my KID will be arriving soon. :)
Any news on KID clipper progress? Is it still 2Q14 ?
Dgd
Quote from: dgd on December 31, 2013, 03:31:11 PM
Ok, so it appears my KID will be arriving soon. :)
Any news on KID clipper progress? Is it still 2Q14 ?
Dgd
Awwwww! You're not supposed to say anything!!!!! Now your Beta KID warranty is only good until boB's next haircut. ;D
We have been discussing the KID Clipper a lot lately. I am almost finished with my part of the design. Take a look at the picture here. This is pretty much what it will look like. I do not have any idea of cost yet. One thing that will be happening for people other than our beta guys is that to do wind with the KID, you will need to buy the Wind version of the KID. It will come standard with the Clipper. There are too many wasted hours and dollars on the Classic from people that do not buy a Clipper. Our regular Clippers ain't cheap for sure, but that is what it takes. When people do not use the Clipper, the Classic usually blows up, so this time we are going to get a little smarter. The KID is an inexpensive product and blowing up a bunch from people that refuse to spend the money to buy the KID Clipper won't make for a good business plan. Therefore it will not be possible to upload new wind code into a Solar KID. Beta testers will be different. The KID Clipper will also be sold very cheap to KID beta testers. It is still a few months away though.
Comments are welcome on the layout of the Clipper. The breakers are for shorting the turbines three phase output. IT only takes two breakers to short out three phases. This Clipper will also work with a DC turbine.
Thanks Robin.
Thats a neat looking layout, just one resistor?
So a wind KID has to be supplied with the KID Clipper and from what you say about breakers then it appears the Clipper will contain the 3 phase rectifier as well as the breakers on the 3 phase AC side to turn on/off the turbine (by shorting the phases together on the input side of the rectifier). Although the resistor(s) will be on the DC side of the rectifier?
Any thoughts on resistor values and does battery voltage/turbine model need to specified so that correct resistance value is provided?
Or is one value used for all with some smart PWMing by the Clipper/Kid to keep turbine appropriately loaded?
Q214, cant wait... Can I get into the wind KID/Clipper beta test list please?
dgd
You can get into the KID beta program by contacting bo@midnitesolar.com. Make sure you tell him you are from the MidNite Forum. We have not established a price for the Clipper yet, but for the beta program, I suspect it will be about the same as for the KID. I can't remember what that is, but Bo will know.
As far as resistance. We will start with .8 ohms. There is no way to know what the exact right resistor will be until things are more firmed up. We are still messing with the stator design on our wind turbine too. It is possible that other brands of turbines may require a different resistor. We just don't know yet? The resistor will be a 600 watt just like we use in the large Clipper, but we use 6 in that Clipper. The Clipper and KID will make sure we are never dissipating more than 600 watts in the resistor. We suspect that we can control a 1000 watt turbine with this clipper. If we ever had to divert full power from a 1000 watt turbine due to batteries being fully charged, the KID would Clip and bring the turbine speed down thus reducing dissipation by lowering the turbine voltage. Lots of unknowns. We need to break a bunch of stuff in engineering so we can determine what can actually be done.
Here is the present KID Clipper schematic. This may change as things progress, but this is the most basic it will ever be. The goal is to make a product that works, but at the least cost.
A nice straightforward design :)
My thoughts...
Can connect a 3 phase AC turbine or a DC turbine?
The run/stop switch system would need to be different for DC turbine although some pcb jumpers to select AC/DC could rewire for DC.
Those large(ish) caps are probably not necessary for AC 3ph turbine as DC ripple after rectifier is near negligible. But useful for DC turbine. These tend to be expensive too.
0.8ohm will probably dead stop a 24v or 48v turbine. 1.6 and 3.2 ohm options here? although if something like a higher speed hy-1000 gets connected then 6 to 8 ohms. Starts to get complicated here.
I hope there is enough room for a few MOVs and maybe associated leds..
No high voltage input detection/protection? resettable fuses for OCP?
dgd
1. The design should work for AC and DC turbines with no changes. For DC, just use any two of the three input terminals. We will no doubt label two of them for DC+ and DC- to save on phone calls, but it doesn't matter which two to use or polarity. Take a good look at the stop switches on the schematic. You will see that between the two breakers, it will short out all three windings on a 3ph turbine and also short out the output of a DC turbine. No jumpers required.
2. The caps are not required so much for an AC turbine, but mandatory for a DC turbine. Since the KID is crammed for space, the input caps are a little light. The caps here on the Clipper will allow the KID caps to run cooler. The caps aren't cheap, but remember we aren't buying them in small quantities.
3. We will make sure we have other resistor values for other turbines. I think we already have 2 ohm in that size. We will get 4 and 8 or so also.
I suspect when it is all said and done, we may have 3, 5,6,7,9, and 10 ohms as well. Once we are ordering these resistors, it isn't a big deal to add some other values.
4. I have not incorporated any MOV's yet. The ones we use in the SPD's are too big and the ones we use in the Classic are too small.
More work and thought needs to go into this. I do agree that we should put some in if possible. Shoot, now I need a ground! I should put one in anyway. LED's will take a bunch of parts. I don't know if we will want to add that expense. If LED's are required, we always have the SPD's. I would like to make a smaller SPD someday too. That may be the solution. It would have LED's and would mount like our regular ones, but at a lot less money. Possibly $75 or $80 rather than $119.
5. No high voltage protection other than clipping. This Clipper also does not have the fail safe circuit like our big Clipper. There is a 30 amp fuse built into the Clipper position on the KID. That is not intended to circumvent the NEC required disconnect though. We know that a lot of doit yourselfers are not going to put any sort of OCP anywhere in the system, so we put the three fuses in the KID. They are not code compliant fuses, but a lot better than nothing. They will help to keep burning things up on bad installations. We do not advocate counting on these fuses as they will not meet the demands of the NEC.
All the extra stuff that we are not putting into this Clipper have been left out in order to meet cost expectations. If there is budget left over, then you may see more stuff in there. We just don't know what it costs yet. One of the main concerns is the cost of the heat sink. I originally designed in a nice extrusion, but Ryan pointed me in a sheet metal direction that is much less costly. We do not know if it will be adequate yet, but that is what the first prototype will have.
By the way, Mario is running into problems uploading code. It seems that Windows 7 only allows so much time to upload new code. Mario has been struggling with reducing code space while adding new features and bug fixes. Not an easy task. Andrew is now going to start work on a new boot loader that will speed things up. It would be a shame to limit features based on Windows limitations.
Keep the questions and comments coming. This is the time to let Mario and all the rest of engineering know what you want.
By the way, we already have KID code updates on the website. Mario will be changing the code almost daily for a while. Upgrading the code is really easy on the KID as compared to the Classic. We took this down yesterday when we discovered the time out issue, but it should be ok to put it back up now.
I uploaded a few new pictures of the Clipper. These show the new sheet metal heat sink in case anyone is interested in this stuff. Most consumers never get to see the development that goes on for products. If this is of interest, we will continue to post the progress. We can call this a large design review as it progresses.
Quote from: dgd on January 01, 2014, 04:46:27 PM
Those large(ish) caps are probably not necessary for AC 3ph turbine as DC ripple after rectifier is near negligible. But useful for DC turbine. These tend to be expensive too.
Think about what a DC turbine is. It's an AC turbine with the rectifier already in the turbine nacelle.
The caps are necessary for an AC or a DC turbine if it is being clipped on the DC side.
The caps are not there for filtering but as snubbers. If it were only an AC clipper,
clipping on the AC side, then no capacitors would be necessary. This clipper needs to
satisfy both AC and DC customers though so gotta keep the caps for now.
boB
Here are a couple more shots of the Clipper. I think I am ready to have parts made. Notice that this version has the added ground terminal on the edge of the board. You can access the ground from the conduit openings of directly through the cover where a couple of 1/4" knock outs are placed.
Quote from: Robin on January 03, 2014, 06:44:44 PM
Notice that this version has the added ground terminal on the edge of the board. You can access the ground from the conduit openings of directly through the cover where a couple of 1/4" knock outs are placed.
is there a knockout position to mount an SPD? now that you have a ground terminal :)
dgd
I am still hopeful to include three MOVs, but I will add a knockout here anyway.
Thanks for catching that.
Robin and boB,
Has anyone thought of the possibility that someone might buy a kid and clipper to use with a smaller Jacobs (1000 watt 32/36 volt) or Win lite or other DC generator wind generator, these have commutator switching spikes that might be more severe than the 3 phase generators that are much more common today? They have enough ripple on the output that it is possible to connect an automotive tachometer to the output to read out the r.p.m.'s of the wind generator.
Just a thought, they still exist and there is no one making a suitable controller for them.
td
The KID and KID CLipper may be too small for something like a Jacobs. Sounds like it could be trouble. People do use the Big Clipper and Classic on Jacobs though.
You ~could~ use more than one Clipper in parallel, too.
boB
Does that mean you need two KIDs in Bully mode and two Clippers?
Quote from: boB on January 01, 2014, 11:10:38 PM
Think about what a DC turbine is. It's an AC turbine with the rectifier already in the turbine nacelle.
The caps are necessary for an AC or a DC turbine if it is being clipped on the DC side.
The caps are not there for filtering but as snubbers. If it were only an AC clipper,
clipping on the AC side, then no capacitors would be necessary. This clipper needs to
satisfy both AC and DC customers though so gotta keep the caps for now.
On looking at the circuit robin posted it appears the load connections are used just to access the load FET and use it to divert input DC power to the resistor. I assume the relocating of the KID fuses reconfigure it to this mode.
I was just sort of thinking - would it not be just as easy to include a couple of fets or SSR on the KID Clipper and just use the AUX output for control?
I can't imagine this being a major cost as all the expensive stuff is on the clipper already.
This would then probably allow the use of the large 1.5Kw Clipper for those that get a 1kw to 1.5Kw 48v turbine and want the added turbine/controller protection.
Then the LOAD connections could still be used for a real output load of some sort - such as a small water heater or secondary battery charger etc..
dgd
Quote from: Robin on January 04, 2014, 08:24:52 PM
Does that mean you need two KIDs in Bully mode and two Clippers?
Is that mode similar to "Follow Me" or I'll kick yo' butt?
Well "Bully Mode" is unique. Basically you use Bully mode when you have a single large array. So you connect the single array up to the 2 kids and put the master in bully mode and it takes over the second kid. So one display and one control
Ryan
Robin,
The kid is way too small for the more common Jacobs 3 kW machine, I was referring to the 750 watt and 1 kW Jacobs machines, they are rare but there are others of that design out there, such as the Win Lite and others. All modern machines are using the 3 phase designs but I am sure that I am not the only one who has dealt with these DC machines that were popular 1930 thru 1955 when the Rural Electrification Association strung power lines across the west and required you to scrap your wind generator in 1955 in order to connect to REA. Why does that theme sound familiar?
td
..and overthinking the KID Clipper some more..
I could see a place here for a KID AC Clipper.
30A max output so 24v 700w turbine 12v 350w 48v 1500w.
Perhaps something built into an ali box of the MNDC size and a trio or 300watt six inch ceramic wirewound resistors, two small AC ssrs, on pcb 3phase rectifier diodes with heatsink, movs, and simplier scaled down connectors compared to BIG Clippers,.
None of the BIG Clipper fans or dead Classic detection,
power it from KID's load connection.
few leds to see what is happening, overvoltage, Clipping active, power on..
dgd
All these are great suggestions however the quantity of Clippers sold would never justify the engineering and parts outlay. We may be the only Clippers available in the world, but we still do not sell many. the KID clipper is the low budget answer to our larger Clipper. We won't be adding a SSR in this Clipper. That will be done in the KID. This does save money. The KID Clipper is already $400 to 500 retail. We cannot add anymore cost. This Clipper isn't designed for a 1930's turbine either, so if it doesn't meet those needs then our large ones will have to do. It is hard to justify spending the resources at all for this Clipper. We are doing it due to the turbine that we are building. Any other turbine that falls into that category is gravy, but we won't be adding any cost to it to satisfy other turbines. The KID and KID Clipper does already satisfy a large contingent of turbines though. We expect it wo work with up to 1000 watts based on a 48V bank, but no more. Feature creep is what happens at times to make products non affordable. This Clipper won't be falling into that trap, thus it is a stripped down product. Even then, I bet we will be lucky to break even on it. I'm not sure we break even on our large Clippers. The quantities just aren't there. We will continue to support the Clippers though as nobody else seems to want the job. Wind is a pain in the butt, but it is more exciting than solar. It is a good thing we have solar to pay the bills so we can play with wind!
There is a space for those of us who do not need a dishwasher, big screen tv , etc. I lived for several years with 300 watts of panels and a cheap Chinese controller providing all my electricity, but I am from the backwoods of Alaska and never lived in a house grid fed until I was 15 or so. Not everybody is from an environment that takes electricity for granted. I certainly am not and I believe that the kid will be a great success, maybe not in the cities but lots of people prefer to live with way less complications in life, speaking for myself, I am one of those. I am happy to get a beta kid and already have it hooked up in a direct comparison with what I believe to be the best of the cheep Chinese MPPT controllers. I have multiple banks of panels, identical, with which to do comparisons, and will be posting results of direct comparisons with the Chinese EP Solar Tracer 3215 RN (30 Amps 12/24 volt).
td
Do you have a way to accurately measure current into the battery? Make sure they are both in bulk mode and the chargers are going as hard as they can.
Good luck Mario!
Robin,
I assume that you are responding to my post, I do have very good instrumentation including multiple digital ammeters/voltmeters calibrated with my in calibration flukes, wave techs etc. And load testers and assorted other test instruments as well as a calibration lab experience at Seagate Technology so I do know lab calibration. I will give an honest review.
td
Quote from: Robin on January 04, 2014, 08:24:52 PM
Does that mean you need two KIDs in Bully mode and two Clippers?
Oh Yeah ! I forgot !
The Clipper uses the load output of the Kid instead of an SSR so, yes, you
would need another load switcher. You ~could~ add an external DC SSR
I suppose and trigger it somehow.
boB
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 04, 2014, 08:57:34 PM
Well "Bully Mode" is unique. Basically you use Bully mode when you have a single large array. So you connect the single array up to the 2 kids and put the master in bully mode and it takes over the second kid. So one display and one control
I think boB or Robin once mentioned that they were working on a stackable controller. I think that turned into the Kid. Is there some reason you don't refer to it as stacking?
--vtMaps
We do mention that you can stack two KIDs for a 60 amp controller. Maybe we need to make a bigger deal out of it. I do not think any other controller can do this yet. The 600V Morningstar will soon though. That controller is in a different league at $2000.
The 7th wiring diagram in the KID manual shows the parallel hook up. We are testing new KID code right now that fixes a small issue with stacking. The Paralleled units we have been testing are within 1 amp of each other as far as sharing current. We are very pleased with how they are working. As soon as Ryan and Tom have verified that this new code does what it is supposed to do, it will be up on our web for downloading. Ryan is sort of snowed in and freezing up in Maine so there may not be a lot of sun for testing?. Of course with -35 degree weather, I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to go outside if that is required to put them in parallel. The KID can also be placed in Follow Me mode like the Classic. We may be able to make the Classic stackable too, but we have been thinking of making a larger controller with all the features of the Classic, but without fans. This would require a lot more transistors and a large heat sink. We have 7 Fets on the KID, but only 8 on the Classic which is more than twice as powerful. We do not let the KID get as hot as the Classic and we think that will show up as increased reliability. Some of the KIDs will be mounted in RV's and boats where you can touch the heat sink, so we limit the temperature for appearance reasons. The Classic was designed to do what it does and at higher temperatures, but of course with all power electronics, the cooler they run, the longer they last. We have been field testing th4 KID for quite a while now. There have been numerous issues with code. Some of them did pretty bad things, but we have never blown up a KID in the field! Pretty impressive.
By the way, if we do a larger version of the KID, it may also be stackable.
By the way, boB is working on code for the Classic now that will allow the WB Jr. to be a real fuel gauge. We expect this code will migrate to the KID too in the near future.
A larger KID, maybe 40amps? and stackable too :)
With the lack of an ethernet interface perhaps there is a need here for an external network (SNMP) box that connects to KID's usb and can provide a web interface.
The only issue I could see with this is that two or more KID's stacked and networked could be preferred to a Classic 150.
dgd
When I said larger version of the KID I meant something above 100 amps output.
People will be working on an interface to the internet for the KID. This may or may not be a MidNite product though. Give it a little time and you will probably see at least three devices available.
If you already knew that you would want stacked KIDs and the internet, it would make sense to just get the Classic, but sometimes money doesn't allow for that all at once. The Classic would be a better choice in that case, but then some people will be able to add more capability over the years and still get similar results while still preserving the beer fund.
network charge state would be nice between/among classics and kid would be nice in future if it is possible .I my self is considering the kid with its clipper function/capabilities.
I think the intent is to have the Classic and Kid do Follow Me. I will chat with the Engineers on this one.
Ryan
yes that is what i am implying Ryan and thanks.
Quote from: Robin on January 07, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
When I said larger version of the KID I meant something above 100 amps output.
Nice.. what is limiting the KID to 30 amps max output now? Is this a limit imposed by the firmware? Seems there are enough FETs to allow more - or is this mainly a temperature issue with more FETs running cooler.
Can we get a software setting to increase max output amps in a similar way that the MX60 had that
up to 70amps capability? I would be happy to mount the KID on a nice big heatsink for another 10 or 15 amps :)
dgd
Also any chance of getting an AUX output from the KID that is Clipper control in case a large Clipper is preferred to control an AC turbine
Could two KIDS be stacked to deal with larger turbine?
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 09, 2014, 06:10:35 AM
Quote from: Robin on January 07, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
When I said larger version of the KID I meant something above 100 amps output.
Nice.. what is limiting the KID to 30 amps max output now? Is this a limit imposed by the firmware? Seems there are enough FETs to allow more - or is this mainly a temperature issue with more FETs running cooler.
Can we get a software setting to increase max output amps in a similar way that the MX60 had that up to 70amps capability? I would be happy to mount the KID on a nice big heatsink for another 10 or 15 amps :)
dgd
I think the limiting factor is the fact it is a single inductor. So the inductor and caps get hot first. The Big Kid will likely have 3 cylinders
Ryan
Quote from: dgd on January 09, 2014, 06:17:09 AM
Also any chance of getting an AUX output from the KID that is Clipper control in case a large Clipper is preferred to control an AC turbine
Could two KIDS be stacked to deal with larger turbine?
dgd
I see no reason both of those could not be a reality. True Paralleling works great on Solar so we will have to see what it does when we start playing with wind and I assume Aux out to the clipper is an easy function.
We have designed the KID for reliability. That means temperature. We did not put a fan in it because people just don't like fans. The parts all are pretty much running the temperature we want at 30 amps, so we cannot simply increase the output. If we could safely do that, we could charge more money for it! But....that isn't going to happen. Ryan is correct, the Big Kid will have 3 or four cylinders.
Now that I have had a KID up and going for a week I can appreciate that its designed to fill a particular market need for a decent mid level 30amp controller.
Probably just right for the RV, motorhome, boat and small cabin market where pv size is limited and its likely the people using it will normally be within sight of the controller and can therefore see what is happening on that 2 line display.
But in a medium to larger home system the problem is the lack of remote communications with the KID. If you can't be next to it then you can't see what is happening. Also since these PV systems tend to be larger then this is where the Classic comes in.
So now that a larger KID has been mentioned, possibly over 100A output capability, then the issue of communications comes back. Or are we just looking at an extended KID with display only? I suppose if it was designed with either an attachable comms module with everything needed to support that, or a built in ethernet interface, then is it starting to just offer similar features to the classic range.
Are there any plans yet to make the Mk2 Classic? and the 600V controller?
dgd
Talk of a Big Kid is referring to a large controller that , like the KID. has no fan. The features will be more along the lines of the Classic though. We will have lots of good stuff here, especially communications. The KID itself won't be getting Ethernet anytime soon. We would like some of the smart Forum guys to create this from boards such as the Raspberry Pi or others like that. The KID may be able to have a remote display at some point. It does have a communications jack that was originally put there for stacking, but it can be used for other communications as well.
One very nice feature that is incorporated into the KID is true parallel operation. You can start small and as your needs grow add another KID for a 60 amp controller. Now it isn't so midsized, but you did not have to spend all the money at once.
We are not planning on a 600V controller at this time. There are now two manufacturers that make 600V controllers. I wonder if either one of them are happy with reliability, sales and performance. I would be surprised if they are happy. The Morningstar 600V controller will cost you $2500 by the time you get it hooked up. That is almost a buck a watt. $2500 for 3000 watts. The Classic Lite can be as cheap as $.16 per watt.
($700 for 4400 watts).
I don't know what we would need to charge for a 600V controller, but I do not think the quantities would justify the development expense. High voltage is a real @&%@!
Quote from: Robin on January 24, 2014, 11:35:25 PM
Talk of a Big Kid is referring to a large controller that , like the KID. has no fan. The features will be more along the lines of the Classic though. We will have lots of good stuff here, especially communications
Thats good to hear although I really do hope that this time the communications is more world compatible and means a built in web server.
Quote
The KID itself won't be getting Ethernet anytime soon. We would like some of the smart Forum guys to create this from boards such as the Raspberry Pi or others like that. The KID may be able to have a remote display at some point. It does have a communications jack that was originally put there for stacking, but it can be used for other communications as well.
I suspect this will probably progress once Mario gets the firmware sorted out to provide the basic running data via the communications port or usb port.
dgd
The communications display for the KID is not on the new updated engineering project list. Thanks for reminding us. We will add it. There are 35 significant projects on the list now.
It is hard to justify spending the resources at all for this Clipper. We are doing it due to the turbine that we are building. Any other turbine that falls into that category is gravy, but we won't be adding any cost to it to satisfy other turbines.
Robin,
i wholeheartedly endorse the gravy, having both hydro and wind turbines under 1kw on a 48v system.
any idea when this will be going into production?
is there any more information on the turbine that you are building?
ben.
The reference to other turbines being gravy means that other turbines up to 1KW at 48V or 600 watt at 24V or 400 watt at 12V should work just fine with the Wind KID and Clipper. It is possible that some turbines may not put out very high voltage unloaded. Those turbines, if they exist, do not need the Clipper, but the only way to get a Wind KID is to also get the Clipper. The Clipper and Wind KID are a good 4 months away. We are just now starting to ship non ETL listed production KIDS. That takes some of Mario's time to help manage the production test process and training. We have the entire Classic line helping to build KIDs this week, but already we are falling behind on Classic orders because of it. We do not yet have the Clipper circuit board or metal work. Things will get moving much faster once the prototypes for those show up. Mario wants to try doing Wind Learn. That should be very interesting. Figure out the best program for the turbine and program it on the fly.
Our turbine is coming along slowly. Not enough people to devote to it full time. We are messing around with about 6 different stator designs. At the moment the turbine is good for about 500 watts at 24V. We are attempting to increase that closer to 1000W. The turbine is literally built like a tank and the cost shows it. We believe we can redesign the stator for more power although three parts that are tooled up will have to change. We don't think at 500 watts, the turbine is going to be cost effective for the masses. It sure is pretty though.
We should be testing new stators in about 6 weeks.
What will be the rotor size of the turbine? 500 watts can be respectable output achieved at 15 mph.
Quote from: Robin on February 19, 2014, 01:26:29 AMIt sure is pretty though.
We should be testing new stators in about 6 weeks.
Cool beans!
Can't wait to see one flying. I agree 500 watts might be a bit undersized for the masses but you gotta start someplace. With my 17 footer on the disabled list until better weather and probably new bearings, 500 watts would beat zero by a large factor.
Got any photos of this thing to share. Nothing like a bit of sexy RE graphics to make me grin.
Tom
Tom, we may get you one of these to play with. The rotor size is 6 foot diameter. We are going to add larger coils to the stator to increase power. Logan is messing around with the stator to try making it into a VAWT. Good luck!
Some pictures attached.
Quote from: Robin on February 22, 2014, 03:30:28 PM
Tom, we may get you one of these to play with. The rotor size is 6 foot diameter. We are going to add larger coils to the stator to increase power. Logan is messing around with the stator to try making it into a VAWT. Good luck!
Some pictures attached.
Robin;
Sounds great, I will have a spot free when decent weather shows up while I decide what to do with the 17 footer.
I see it has no furling. My 2 meter (~6 ft) motor conversion turbine built by Zubbly (RIP) flew for years with no furling and would still be flying if I had not taken it down to redo the badly eroded wooden blades and have not received the replacements for yet. Seems like 6 foot is small enough to survive high winds flying head on. That Zubbly turbine survived multiple 60 and 70 MPH wind events unscathed.
Tom
Tom, it is better than that. We don't need furling. The turbine will come one of three ways.
1. With the Kid and Kid Clipper
2. With the Army Wind controller (with built in solid state Clipper
3. With our wind grid tie inverter (with built in solid state Clipper
We won't be shipping the turbine without a controller or inverter to control the speed.
See, no furling required. The Clippers will allow full output in 60MPH wind by controlling the speed.
We don't yet know the limits of the turbine, stator or Clippers. We will have some fun blowing things up to figure out all the best compromises in software and hardware control. We are constructing a powerful wind tunnel for development. Ryan says the VAWT has "Active blade release". I guess that is a form of speed control? I am certain we will try that method more than once!
Robin,
That project looks great. Any chance to test one in Texas were I have mechanical compression of my winds? I have a dam that points into the prevailing wind and there are hills on both sides. They really get the wind going over the dam. I am going to fly two windmills there as time allows, but testing one like that would be fun!! And I can use the power as it is 1300 feet from the cabin to the dam and I am planning on adding aeration to the deep end of the big pond this summer to try and cool the surface during the hottest part of the summer using deeper water (currently a Beta Kid project in work).
The engineer in me has followed the Dans just outside of Fort Collins for years and they are the inspiration for my windmills. And I have not forgotten my hydro project, but with the drought, it is on hold for now.
Second thought: Any chance you guys are going to curve the blades to quiet down your windmill, or is the packaging more important?
Third thought: Any chance it would work side by side with a solar Kid setup so there would be two ways to collect power for one bank?
Just like with the KID, we will have a Wind beta program. It is still a ways off though as all the projects are still in development.
The blades will not be curved, but what we see is greatly reduced noise due to speed control. Let's say that we are successful in getting up to 1000 watts out of the turbine. Let's also say that in your location you don't like the noise when it is putting out 1000 watts. Simple, just dial the speed control down to something that you find tolerable. It may turn it into a 600 watt turbine? The good thing is that it doesn't quit making power, it just holds the speed at some user defined maximum.
I do not know if the Solar KID and the WIND KID are going to communicate for coordinated battery charging. The Classic does that for sure, but Mario will have to chime in here. We haven't discussed this yet, but since we can stack two KID's together for solar, I bet we can do a coordinated charge for these two also. It should be easier because we only have to coordinate the output, not the input. I would bet a nickel that Mario can and will do this. It may be as simple as putting them in follow me mode rather than Bully mode?
I am headed out the door in an hour to Colorado (COSIA show). I hope to see Dan and Dan.
looks great hope i can afford one when its on the market.vawt looks kool.
Midnite has just re-energized my interest in wind with the nice looking turbine.
Cheers...
Damani
Robin,
If I can afford it, I am in!! I really like the craftsmanship put into your products (hardware and software) and I vote with my wallet.
About the noise of the windmill, I am not worried about it, but others might be. I remember you talking about being able to use the controller to limit the output and thus noise, but I want as much power as I can get and the farm is big enough that any noise will not disturb anyone.
The turbine is not a cheaply made turbine. It was designed for the military in combat applications. They don't need a lot of power, but in order to make it a viable commercial turbine, it will need to put out about 1000 watts. We didn't design it for that, but due to the cost of all the castings and such, we need to upgrade the output power. We have all the tooling paid for now, so increasing the power should only require one casting change and two plastic changes.
I don't know the price yet, but you all will get a great deal for sure.
well thats nice to hear Bob because i am in a dire need of a turbine but cost /performance or both are my issues with products that are already on the martket
any updates on the clipper chaps?
We have received two of the four metal parts for the Clipper, so I expect the other two will show up next week. We have circuit boards, but have not built them up yet. That will happen within a couple of weeks. Don't know if we have all the parts for the board. Of course there is that little issue regarding code. Mario is just chomping at the bit to start working on the turbine code. He has to finish a few other things on the solar clipper first.
We recently received 4 stators built around our custom plastic housing and bobbins. They all look good. These are the lower 500 watt versions. We also received our first shipment of blades, but they were all rejected back to the supplier. We expect the correct blades in a few weeks. Bob Q will be doing the redesign to make the turbine more powerful, but he has a couple other projects to get done first. I don't expect the turbine to make us any money for quite a long time so these other projects end up moving to the head of the class. The turbine is way more fun though so we aren't forgetting about it. I do expect to have a few turbines ready for real life testing in one month. We will keep one, Logan Bryce will get one, Ryan will get one and there is one still up for grabs.
Robin;
I have just removed my 17 footer for repairs. I could fly one of them if it would help with real world testing.
Tom
Tom, We will keep that in mind. We really need good input.
Thanks,
Robin
just wondering how the kid and kid clipper combination is progressing.
I have a 700watt UK made 24v DC output turbine that I would really like to interface to the KID and KClipper.
Any plans for a beta KID/Kid Clipper release?
dgd
No progress has been made on the KID Clipper or code for a Wind KID. We do have all parts in house for the KID Clipper though. Mario still has a few things to finish up on the Solar KID before jumping into the Wind/Hydro version. Should be soon though.
Yes, we can certainly have a beta program for the KID Clipper and Wind KID. Ask again in a month to see if we have started the project.
any exciting news on the kid/clipper combo yet?
We just built three KID Clippers, but Mario still has to finish some other aspects of the KID before he gets to play with the nice new shiny red Clippers.
hey that's great news robin. looking forward to hearing more and ready for a beta unit when they get finished!
what's the status of the clipper robin, any further along yet?
any development on the clipper front?
Hi Midnite
Seems I’m not alone in waiting for info on the Kid Clipper Progress,,, any news/timeframes will be very appreciated. :)
My Kid has been running on a small solar array, but I really bought it for the Wind/Hydro feature, my KID is waiting to be hooked up to my 2 smaller VAWT driven PMA's. The KID Clipper should be a very easy build(few components), but the software might take some time to work out and get tested, my KID is not a Beta unit, throw I would like one?how ? I would like to get involved in some beta testing? How?
Since the KID not yet supports Wind/Hydro, I’m thinking that I properly just should get a Classic or a Tristar(Tristar mppt loaded whit beta Wind firmware) these also have all the nice remote logging and setup features,, but for now my wind turbines are controlled whit my own design buck/boost charge controller’s and load/power diversions
Have a nice green alternative energy day.
regards
Henrik.
Any progress the KID Clipper and Wind firmware :( have been waiting almost 6 months now on the Wind/hydro feature for my KID.
The Wind is picking up here and the sun is low in Horizon.
Quote from: Robin on January 24, 2014, 11:35:25 PM
Talk of a Big Kid is referring to a large controller that , like the KID. has no fan. The features will be more along the lines of the Classic though. We will have lots of good stuff here, especially communications.
Any more thoughts on this or clues about possible specs :P or actual progress?
dgd
any clipper progress updates?
does anyone know if the kid clipper still going ahead, there has been no word on this for months now?
i hope it's not dead in the water.
bueller....... bueller...... anyone?
Progress on the Kid clipper has been zero. Mario has two other projects he is working on. A redesign of the SPD's. boB and Mario are flying to Boston tomorrow for testing of the SPD's. We suspect that they testing will go well and them Mario can put that project to bed. The Kid just needs the new AGS board to work in Bully mode. Mario is almost done with that code. It has been a real @&%@ trying to get the Kids to reconnect all by themselves when one does disconnect for any reason. It is almost done, but give him a few more weeks. Then Mario is on to the Kid Clipper. The hardware has been done for a long time, just not tested.
I would be careful in using a Morningstar controller for wind. What is the maximum voltage it will see?
that is awesome to hear robin.
i was worrying that maybe you guys had pulled the pin on it.
couple of months then and we may see some action, sounds great.
what is an spd?
cheers.
Quote from: bennyspoon on February 18, 2015, 05:26:40 AM
what is an spd?
cheers.
Surge
Protection
Device
(http://www.midnitesolar.com/images/products/photos/spd_sideView_web.jpg)
An SPD is a surge protective device. (lightning arrestor)
Nah, we almost never pull the plug on projects. We just keep on adding more, so the priorities get moved around.
Once an engineer gets one or two projects into production, it greatly slows down the time he has available to do new projects. The regular production stuff ends up taking some of their time to support production, warranty stuff, design changes etc. Mario has two significant projects in production. Last week he was working on code for Bully mode and he decided to go home and work where it would be more quiet. We now have a second desk for him in the other engineering building too so he can have a quiet place to work.
Midnite is a very busy and crowded place in our main building. We have two additional buildings. Half of the engineers work in building #3. That is where some of us worked 20 years ago when that building was Trace engineering. Then it was Xantrex and after that it was the Outback engineering building. Lots of solar designs came out of that building.
boB and Mario going to Boston, (note to them, bring a snow shovel).
Solar history in one building, if only those walls could talk...
Learning there is a new SPD on its way !!!!!!
Learning new stuff is on the way (inverter please) !!!!!!
The clipper is still in design, also great news.
When do the engineers sleep?
QuoteWhen do the engineers sleep?
They don't sleep. They float.
When we go to lunch we ABSORB, that causes us to BULK.
Too much of Ryan's Jack Daniels can cause one to FLOAT.
Quote from: Highflyer on February 18, 2015, 01:10:36 PM
Learning there is a new SPD on its way !!!!!!
I wonder if the "new" SPD is this: http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=725
--vtMaps
how's that clipper coming along robin, any news?
bump.
has there been any news since the video of robin and mario talking about the kid wind clipper?
we must be getting near the pointy end now i hope.
Hello All, I have been working on other stuff but the clipper and Wind Kid is coming, we get the boards for the clipper next week and we have ordered the sheet metal to go with it, I have written code for wind and clipper control, I am guessing in the next month we will have some beta units ready to go.
Mario Rodriguez
I just saw Mario's new raw PCB for the Kid clipper come in today !
Just FYI.
boB
I assume that means the actual kid clipper is not too far away and that the kid firmware for wind turbine is in testing.
Sadly, I see that there is now an ETracer 60amp mppt controller with an external, up to 1.2kw, control load for several models of 200 to 1kw turbines (all Chinese manufactured). Looks like a clipper type design as its a bit complicated to just be a simple diversion load, 3 WW resistors and 3ph ssr plus a set of power diodes all in a matching ETracer box with fans
Dgd
Quote from: dgd on July 22, 2016, 04:56:41 AM
I assume that means the actual kid clipper is not too far away and that the kid firmware for wind turbine is in testing.
Sadly, I see that there is now an ETracer 60amp mppt controller with an external, up to 1.2kw, control load for several models of 200 to 1kw turbines (all Chinese manufactured). Looks like a clipper type design as its a bit complicated to just be a simple diversion load, 3 WW resistors and 3ph ssr plus a set of power diodes all in a matching ETracer box with fans
Dgd
DgD, you have a link ? I couldn't find anything regarding the Etracer and a dump load
boB
I can't find a web link either.
I viewed the actual box at a main pv supplier who was preparing a presentation for a soon happening yachting show in Auckland. He was confident there would be lots interest from boat owners as they apparently sell 100+ small turbines each year.
I will see if I can get some photos on my next visit
Dgd
So what is the eta? Roughly?
any developments on this front?
you guys love keeping me in suspenders, and while i have the legs for them, they are a little uncomfortable!
i know that you {midnite possy} are super busy, fingers in multiple pies and doing max development as the industry goes nuts.
can you give those of us living in hope an eta on this gadget.
even though i'm the most pesky poster about this, i know there are other fiends out there, waiting with baited breath just as i am.
p.s. keep up the great work. your products, your accessibility and your customer service are second to none.