Will the Classic 150 ever be able to communicate with SChneider Xanbus devices?
It certainly could, but this is what I thought the "Black Box Project" was going to be able to do eventually....
That is a kind of do everything and communicate with any products kind of thing. I really is doable but
would require Schneider's web box because they will not open up their Xanbus (Can bus like) protocol
for general use.
boB
That would be OK, if we had to buy the web box only...Cool
Don't buy the Schneider web box just yet.
A developers mail list I participate in has several people making some progress with a protocol converter to
extract Xanbus/Canbus data. This is using a $5 Arduino. I am watching this as I would like to get the inverter data into a black box web server - a bigger Arduino or Cubie.
They already appear to have succeeded with the Outback inverters.. :)
dgd
Quote from: dgd on May 18, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
Don't buy the Schneider web box just yet.
A developers mail list I participate in has several people making some progress with a protocol converter to
extract Xanbus/Canbus data. This is using a $5 Arduino. I am watching this as I would like to get the inverter data into a black box web server - a bigger Arduino or Cubie.
They already appear to have succeeded with the Outback inverters.. :)
dgd
Will it be 2-way, and able to update settings in the inverter ? The ComBox, while pricey, so far, is the only way for the user to update firmware, without the "dealer Implanter" gizmo.
Not sure how long I should wait, as I want to get everything on order very soon , and the conext mpp 60-150 is plug and play. :-\
ok, maybe best you go with the schneider commbox if you need a 'very soon' solution.
dgd
Quote from: mike90045 on May 18, 2015, 07:41:16 PM
[
Will it be 2-way, and able to update settings in the inverter ? The ComBox, while pricey, so far, is the only way for the user to update firmware, without the "dealer Implanter" gizmo.
I will post more info on progress as it happens. I thought it was only (initially) reading data for a web display page but if firmware updates are a regular need then this may not be useful.
What is the dealer implanter gizmo? Is it a weird name for a laptop/notepad with xanbus interface and uploader program?
dgd
The dealer "Implanter" gizmo, is some sort of box, Schneider rents to the dealer who either drives to your place and installs the new firmware, or some may re-rent it to you. Supposed to be bombproof.....
I've had good luck using the USB flash drive with firmware and the combox .
Quote from: dgd on May 18, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
Don't buy the Schneider web box just yet.
A developers mail list I participate in has several people making some progress with a protocol converter to
extract Xanbus/Canbus data. This is using a $5 Arduino. I am watching this as I would like to get the inverter data into a black box web server - a bigger Arduino or Cubie.
They already appear to have succeeded with the Outback inverters.. :)
dgd
dgd
Do you have a link to the info for Outback inverters ? I would like to be able to see what mine is doing or program it without out borrowing my friends Mate when I need to do some changes.
If you look into otherpower forum under controls and the MX60/hub thread there is a contact there who has made an interface board to get serial comms to/from Outback.
He will provide at cost his interface hardware and free info files on how data is configured. Contact him for info.
I am intending to get one of these to connect to an Arduino and create a web interface to retreive Outback running data and eventually configure an inverter.
I don't own an Outback inverter yet but a 3048E is high on my priority shopping list although did acquire an AXS port last year for use with a borrowed inverter.
Now that Schneider have announced their 48volt .. model and if they have an international version (50Hz 230Vac)
available then I may need to re-evaluate what inverter I should get. Then retreiving Xanbus data will become more interesting for me as I certainly don't want to spend $300 or $400 on a combox.
dgd
Well if it turns out there is any hope and progress I think we could get involved also as we could convert our MNSICOMM adapter to be an Schneider adapter. Please keep me posted we may be able to all join forces and do something
Quote from: mike90045 on May 20, 2015, 03:19:20 AM
I've had good luck using the USB flash drive with firmware and the combox .
So how often are firmware updates for the inverter being released? As often as Classic updates?
The purpose of the combox USB port is for a memory drive? or is it available as a serial port for rx/tx of data that is then converted to/from the Xanbus protocol.
I located an 'experimental' C++ code routine for (what the author says) is USB serial/RS232 serial to Xanbus RS485 lookalike conversion. It has lots of stuff about packet framing but I can't understand how it works without some additional hardware to handle the physical layer conversion.
It would be nice if the Xanbus transport layer was just rs485 as converting that to ethernet would be very possible.
Then it would be just a matter of dealing with the data and packet framing.
dgd
Quote from: Halfcrazy on May 22, 2015, 12:18:36 PM
Well if it turns out there is any hope and progress I think we could get involved also as we could convert our MNSICOMM adapter to be an Schneider adapter. Please keep me posted we may be able to all join forces and do something
So what is the MNSICOMM adapter? Is it a similar design to the Outback AXS port, at least from the hardware viewpoint? does it consist of an embedded processor that does all the conversion and comms?
the AXS port uses a well spec'ed ARM Cortex M4 processor with 512k and lots of i/o inc ethernet, MNSICOMM similar?
dgd
Quote from: dgd on May 23, 2015, 05:36:33 AM
Quote from: mike90045 on May 20, 2015, 03:19:20 AM
I've had good luck using the USB flash drive with firmware and the combox .
So how often are firmware updates for the inverter being released? As often as Classic updates?
Naw, just 1x a year or so. But if it's a feature you want (the Gen Support + was good one, don't need a balancing transformer, it uses the one in the inverter) it's the only way to get it.
Quote from: dgd on May 23, 2015, 05:44:50 AM
So what is the MNSICOMM adapter? Is it a similar design to the Outback AXS port, at least from the hardware viewpoint? does it consist of an embedded processor that does all the conversion and comms?
the AXS port uses a well spec'ed ARM Cortex M4 processor with 512k and lots of i/o inc ethernet, MNSICOMM similar?
dgd
dgd, am not a Sunny-Anything person, but, here is some info from the MN Solar site:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=568&productCatName=E-Panel%20-%20SMA&productCat_ID=38&sortOrder=1&act=p
FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
Thanks for that pointer Vic, I had not seen that doc before.
This has raised a few more questions for me and I also see why MN cannot make a Xanbus adapter unless Schneider release the info on the Xanbus hardware interface and more importantly the data framing needed by their system monitor display in order to recognize the Classic.
And why should they as the Classic is a competing product for their own MPPT controller.
I suspect the only way to achieve some sort of interface will be analysing what data moves over a working Xanbus system and even then it will be to just extract inverter data into a blackbox system for subsequent analysis and reporting.
Something that I found interesting in that doc was that four Classics could be daisy chained (just like follow-me wiring but no loopback) and then modbus register info could be extracted by modbus ID, fixed from 10 to 13, over one Classic at device 10 being connected to the MNSICOMM box. This is sort of like implementing an RS485 bus over daisy chained RS232.
Before reading this I mistakenly thought the follow-me was the only use for this chaining but now it appears its built into the Classic firmware as a passthrough capability to allow general modbus register access.
My questions are:
- Is this limited to just 4 Classics?
- Is the KID being considered for a similar daisy chain rs232 connection?
- Is there a performance hit since data from all four is going through one 19200 baud async rs232 port? I can imagine this would be a real bottleneck if attempting to retreive a large portion of the register map every second or so.
- Has the serial port speed been configured higher to improve throughput? 100kb+ :D
- Is there a limit to what modbus registers can be extracted through the daisy chain?
- What about modbus file access, can this be done through the daisy chain? to extract logs from each Classic?
- Would global updates be possible using modbus ID 255 (or whatever)
This interests me because I can see it would be easy to have a blackbox (eg Arduino DUE) with say 4 rs232 ports each connecting to a chain of 4 or more Classics/Kids. The possibilties for follow-me, output load balancing, switching in and out certain PV array segments, diverting excess power (waste not) etc are intriguing
quote from MNSICOMM pdf
Connect a CAT-5 Ethernet cable of suitable length from the SLAVE/OUT jack on the FIRST Classic (#10)
to the RJ-11 connector at the far right end of the Communication Adapter
doesn't cat 5 ethernet use rj45? thats not going into any rj11 or rj12 either in the Classic or MNSICOMM ???
dgd
I wish I had the communications knowledge that you do dgd !
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on May 23, 2015, 10:56:05 PM
I wish I had the communications knowledge that you do dgd !
thanks for the compliment but its really just all smoke and mirrors.
Its what I don't know thats my problem and thats an awful lot.
A business friend who has been in the home RE business for over 30 years said about my Classic web stuff
'Wot a waste of time when all you need is to stick a voltmeter across the battery to see if everything is ok' ???
dgd
though I can appreciate his position, a lot of us were there at one point, (for me that was not much over a year ago on parts of my total setup) without the plethora we now can access, but as the world turns..... he is missing the train, as now we can deduce just what is wrong , where and hopefully why
Getting back on topic..
Some searching and the Xanbus connector pinouts are looking very much like rs485 with +15v, Earth, A and B for data, also the bus termination with 120ohm resistors.
In the Outback forums there are comments that Xanbus data framing may just be modbus RTU.
If thats the case then I cannot locate any modbus register/address map published by Xantrex or Schneider.
(does anyone have this or know where it is?)
Also the Schneider commbox may be nothing more than modbus RTU to ethernet modbus converter with a few bits added such as the USB memory slot. Probably implemented using an embedded cpu of some sort with firmware allowing file (firmware) uploading to devices on the Xanbus.
Looks like the only way forward is to get an SW inverter, use an rs485 to ttl converter, see pic below, and connect it to a ttl serial port on an Arduino and write some code to scan through modbus register addresses and listen for responses.
If Xanbus is that simple then interfacing to blackbox would be straightforward.
dgd
What about this one ?
http://www2.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/229000/FA229511/en_US/ConextXWModbusMap.pdf
or this one
http://www2.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/229000/FA229511/en_US/ConextSWModbusMap.pdf
Thanks for that, I googled but could not locate anything.
So now it appears that data extraction from SW series inverters should be relatively straighforward into blackbox
The Arduino modbus library via serial port into rs485 converter connected to inverter should be good :)
All I need to do now is wait for the 48volt SW in 230vAC 50Hz model, July?
dgd
I know we are talking inverters etc, but look for the manual Xantrex had/ has for the XBM battery monitor. It had all the pinout info and a lot of bits that were above my pay level. \\\\\a friend and another NAWS member hacked the ABM so it did not cost a $300+ _ bill to be able to download the data off the XBM...
Soory out at the lake and do not have access to my old emails.
will look for that old document handy out here, hoe I haven't cabbaged them in a cleanout...
Westbranch is probably referring to this
http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/LinkPro-Battery-Monitor/XBM%20Communication%20Interface%20Specification.pdf
CC that sure looks like it ;D :)
How did you locate it?
ha ha - for both dgd and yours I just used part sentence from your posts and googled them !
reason I ask is I tried a search for the doc and came up dry... even after I read your post? ???
Westbranch - this is what I put into Google search
XBM battery monitor. It had all the pinout info
I think third link down was the one I put above
I got it, originally I used the Word Xantrex and it took me to their main site, the documents section took me to a bunch of sales PDF's and the Manual...... tried to shorten your link to documents and got a ....you're not allowed access or similar... :o :o joys of 'google-ing'
This is too in-depth for me... I have to use a made in china Schneider mppt 60 instead of the classic 150 because of communication incompatibility...I am sad I can;t use a Midnite solar product :(
From an operational viewpoint it's not necessary for an inverter to communicate with a charge controller or vice versa. So your decision seems to be based on insignificant criteria.
If you consider the inability of the classic to communicate its data to the Schneider SCP as a deal breaker then do go with the inferior Schneider mppt controller.
However, if you want a more featured and way better controller with excellent reporting and monitoring software then the classic is the only sensible choice.
Dgd
DGD
Well said. The 2 items really serve 2 completely different functionbs. Sort of like the gas pump at the gas station and the engine in your car.
Quote from: dgd on May 26, 2015, 10:08:36 PM
From an operational viewpoint it's not necessary for an inverter to communicate with a charge controller or vice versa. So your decision seems to be based on insignificant criteria.
If you consider the inability of the classic to communicate its data to the Schneider SCP as a deal breaker then do go with the inferior Schneider mppt controller.
However, if you want a more featured and way better controller with excellent reporting and monitoring software then the classic is the only sensible choice.
Dgd
This is not entirely true, the XW inverter communicates with the MPPT controller for enhanced grid support features and shares the BTS sensor data as well, if connected.
Not to get to many hopes up but it looks like we may have some good news on this front very soon.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 27, 2015, 06:23:19 PM
Not to get to many hopes up but it looks like we may have some good news on this front very soon.
Would this require software, or new hardware ?
it would be a firmware update on the classic, and a small communications adapter.
Quote from: new2PV on June 27, 2015, 06:12:31 PM
... the XW inverter communicates with the MPPT controller for enhanced grid support features
Ok, I'm not quite sure what that means
So the XW inverter is not providing optimal grid support features unless the MPPT controller is attached and communicting with the XW to enhance those support features?
That would make me think again about buying an XW if I already had a Classic or other non-Schneider MPPT controller.
dgd
btw, the BTS sharing is not that significant, just a minor +
Yeah Schneider did some marketing and added a couple features that are only active if you have what looks like an XW MPPT charger. Of course we all know they could have made them work with out the CC but some bean counter thought it would be a good idea. That may all be changing in the weeks to come
Good Day Ryan,
As you may remember I have the dual Xantrex 6000 (from Midnite) and two classic 200's. I do use the Schneider Combox and am anxious to see this Midnite project come to fruition. Monitoring the solar side with the Combox is the missing piece but any other added interface would be icing on the cake.
On a side note I see you are not in technical support and have been trying ext 150 but get Racheal's voice mail??
Over night my classics did something ??? They both display "Got Comm??" and do not display any data. However Local Status panel is showing two working classics now the sun is up. Also the date and time on both was defaulted back to 2002 and midnite. Any ideas??
Thank you
Jay Swartley
St John, VI
Jay = do you have the newest firmware installed on your Classics ? Seems like I saw somewhere that one of the new firmware versions had something that would help eliminate that Got Comm message .
Larry
Quote from: stjohn on July 23, 2015, 10:57:10 AM
Good Day Ryan,
As you may remember I have the dual Xantrex 6000 (from Midnite) and two classic 200's. I do use the Schneider Combox and am anxious to see this Midnite project come to fruition. Monitoring the solar side with the Combox is the missing piece but any other added interface would be icing on the cake.
On a side note I see you are not in technical support and have been trying ext 150 but get Racheal's voice mail??
Over night my classics did something ??? They both display "Got Comm??" and do not display any data. However Local Status panel is showing two working classics now the sun is up. Also the date and time on both was defaulted back to 2002 and midnite. Any ideas??
Thank you
Jay Swartley
St John, VI
Jay
I am still XT151 (feel free to call or email anytime) XT150 is Roy he took my place in tech support
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 28, 2015, 06:12:27 AM
Yeah Schneider did some marketing and added a couple features that are only active if you have what looks like an XW MPPT charger. Of course we all know they could have made them work with out the CC but some bean counter thought it would be a good idea. That may all be changing in the weeks to come
Any update on this, I need to buy another CC and I need the communication feature for running enhanced grid support. Which means the inverter comes out of ac pass through mode after the batteries have transitioned to float, and starts supplying power to the loads from solar, while keeping the battery at 100% SOC, basically. As the sun goes down the inverter output gradually transitions back to grid.
You can buy the Schneider xanbus dealer installed thingy. I have one and installing firmware is not hard at all and you don't need to be an installer to do it. I just wanted to clear the air about that. If you have a Schneider system its well worth the money and makes maintenance on their systems alot easier. I happen to own Schneider and midnite solar product and are happy with both.
I posted a few months ago about the need for a device to make monitoring a non xanbus device over xanbus. I really hope this comes to fruition soon. I believe that the more we are able to integrate information from multiple manufacturers devices the better. It surely would make my exel spreadsheets a lot smaller and easier to read. Thank to all in this community that strive to help one another. It's a beautiful thing.
Is there any update to this guys?
Quote from: dgd on May 18, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
Don't buy the Schneider web box just yet.
A developers mail list I participate in has several people making some progress with a protocol converter to
extract Xanbus/Canbus data. This is using a $5 Arduino. I am watching this as I would like to get the inverter data into a black box web server - a bigger Arduino or Cubie.
They already appear to have succeeded with the Outback inverters.. :)
dgd
Do you know if this same developer group has succeeded going the other way with the outback hub and the classic 150?
The reason I ask is that I have the outback radian with hub and mate 3 with optics RE.
I would like to convert the communications (over an arduino) from the calssic 150 to the hub 10 so that the mate 3s can see the charge controller statistics and PV inputs for remote monitoring and logging with optics RE.
Thanks!
Evan