How hard (or possible) would it be in a future firmware update to have a couple extra additional settings Aux 1 / Aux 2 that allowed for:
1. A drop down selection of when the user wanted "Waste Not Hi" to turn on relative to the charge stage? This way the user could select if Waste not began in Bulk, Absorb or Float.
And Equally Helpful ...
2. A user enter value based on decreasing Whiz Bang Jr Amps (for instance as the charge amps began to tapper during absorb) for when "Waste Not Hi" turned on (similar to the End Amps setting)? This way the user could enter the Amps at which waste not hi turned on as the amps began to tapper.
Example: Selecting Absorb and Entering 30 amps would not turn Waste Not Hi on until the charger was in Absorb and the charge current had tapered down to 30 amps.
Another Nice update would be in "SOC% Hi" (or perhaps "SOC% Lo")
3. A user set % value in "SOC% Hi" that would Turn the AUX on as the charge is rising at a specific SOC% ... but then a % value to turn off the Aux when the battery SOC% began to decrees down from 100%.
Example: As the charger begins to charge, the user could set an SOC% of say 85% that would turn on the Aux when the SOC reached 85% ... and then once at 100% SOC and the CC is in float, as the SOC began to decrees due to loads, the User could set a value of say 98% SOC that would turn the Aux OFF (but not on the way up to 100% ... only on the way down from 100%.)
4. Also, in "SOC% Hi" As it is right now one can set the Aux on at 99% and off at 98% ... BUT if you set the value at 98% on, Then you can only enter an off value of 93% ... a 5% spread gap. And this gap of 5% follows all the way down the lower you set the on %. Would be nicer if I could set the gap closer to 1-3% ... OR ... even better if I could set On at 85% but off at 99% AFTER the charger had reached 100% and was starting to discharge. (see #3)
******************
As it is right now, I am stuck at the end of the Bulk stage going in and out of absorb. My Waste not load is 850 watts, my additional load is 200 watts for a total of 1050 ... and I am able to generate 1700 watts or more from the array ... BUT at the end of Bulk and the start of Absorb ... the Charger wants more than what is left (550 watts), so the charger keeps turning Waste Not Hi Aux 1 off and on. And keeps bouncing in and out of Bulk and Absorb, And it just gets stuck there.
Sure would be nice to have a little more control over the variables that turned Aux on and off.
Over the years there have been many interesting suggestions for additional AUX controls.
Very few, if any, have been implemented as further development of the Classic appears to be low priority as other Midnite projects are resourced.
If you really need more control then using an external processor that uses modbus commands to get data from the Classic then provides additional relay switching, PWM outputs etc seems to be the way to go.
dgd
I wish I knew more about those things. Seems like that is the way to go.
What DGD said... Plus...
I kinda like suggestion #2 and being able to start it when more power is available.
Using Waste-Not diversion mode is kind of not perfect in that a somewhat wider than
desirable range of voltage is necessary for it to operate and you noticed that it can
dig into your Absorb or Float somewhat by going back into Bulk slightly. This is why,
in the TWEAKS menu, you can tell the Absorb and EQ timers still count while the
waste not is operating. This is because we assume the battery voltage is not
"too" low below the actual Absorb or EQ (or float) voltage set-points.
Thank you for the input Mr. / Mrs. Matrix.
And yes, an external controller communicating vial modbus with the Classic can
make it do almost anything you could think of. There are just not enough hours in
the day and night to work on all these great ideas.
But please keep them coming ! Doesn't hurt to talk about it. Especially here.
boB
I just looked at the tweaks options and didn't see anything whereby you could do as you said boB. Is it something in cryptic Midnite speak? Menu 3 looks like a possibility.
Ralph
Yes ... and the problem I am having, its not that Waste Not Hi is not working on Aux 1 ... it's that near the end of the day as the power from the solar array starts to diminish, the battery voltage starts doing a "dance" where it will reach the hi/lo state and sag back and forth as it turns Aux 1 on and off because the power from the array is no longer enough to sustain the Waste Not Hi load. I is fine while the power from the array is there, but as the sun sets, Aux 1 turns on and off in about 5-15 second cycles. This causes my inverter to turn off and on, and my lights to flash each time the load comes back on. And seems it would be hard on the electronics.
I have gone to using SOC, But the settings there are so limited, I cannot turn it on until I hit 99%, and it has to wait until battery drains down to 97% (no big deal), before it turns off. But in doing this, on/off is only a once in a day occurrence and not something that keeps happening over and over as the power from the array diminishes.
I guess the solution might be an external PWM controller ... but will that work off AUX 1? I dont want to lose the whizbang on Aux 2. I guess another solution would be changing my Waste Not Hi water heater excess dump to DC thus removing it form the inverter so my lights will not flash ... but then the amps go up so hi I would need to use #8 wire to the water heater.
Ideas?
Matrix, yes I see what you mean ! Great idea....
Maybe we can do something like this in the future but it won't happen right at the moment.... Sorry...
Aux 1 could have done PWM (higher frequency) but is limited to so many milliseconds right now. Dang !
And Ralph, the TWEAKS menu item is DvrtCnt which means Divert Count enable/disable.
Normally enabled I think, it allows the Absorb counter to run if it is diverting which is usually
necessary in Waste-Not mode.
I really like the idea of being able to not have to have inverters turn on and off when waste not is used.
boB
Quote from: boB on December 12, 2017, 08:18:04 PM
Matrix, yes I see what you mean ! Great idea....
Maybe we can do something like this in the future but it won't happen right at the moment.... Sorry...
Aux 1 could have done PWM (higher frequency) but is limited to so many milliseconds right now. Dang !
I really like the idea of being able to not have to have inverters turn on and off when waste not is used.
boB
Oh boB ... i did not recognize you ... you changed your Icon !!
Yes it is no hurry or worry. Just would be nice to have sometime. I think either the settings I suggested for Waste Not Hi and/or SOC% hi would be about do the same thing.
Right now I am having to use SOC% Hi because this is the only way I can insure I am not getting a lot of 5-15 second cycles on the Inverter at the end of the day.
And By saying electronics I mean things like Fridge Compressors and control boards inside the fridge, computers, modems, etc. I do not know how common it is .... but my Schneider Conext SW 4024 cause the LED lights to flash/sag once each time a big load like my diversion water heater element comes on. Is that typical of inverter? I do not know. But it does seem having that happen every 5-15 seconds would not be good for circuit boards and compressors.
Is there a discussion somewhere about how to set up the Classic 150 for Modbus control?
I certainly would want more control, too. My waste-not setup is far from perfect.
Documentation for Modbus would be appreciated.
Matrix, life on the bleeding edge is always a bit jittery, especially when dealing with electronics and pushing them to their limits.... you may be able to have a lot more but I suspect 100.00 % is not achievable and also be able to keep it working full-time..
I am interested also but not to that level... Agree about light surging and fading.. really annoying.
So WestBranch, is having your lights sag or flash when a heavy load kicks on the inverter common? We had a party last night and every light in the house would flash when the well pump kicked on. My guess asked what is causing your lights to flash?
And by 100%, do you mean I probably will not be able to harvest 100% of the Excess power generated? Yes I kind of get that. So as for now, I think for my purposes it would seem that SOC High is actually the best way to go (until / unless midnite decides to implement some suggested firmware updates... Hint hint). Since I cannot use a pwm setup. SOC percent High is similar to float hi, but with float hi you end up seeing the battery voltage sag every 5 to 15 seconds at the end of the day when there is a diversion load capturing excess power on the system. And if like me your diversion is connected through the inverter and not off the battery, the inverter kicks in and out which causes those nasty sags or flashes of light
Brown outs or deep flickers mean to me a lack of supply , small wire to a poor conection causing a voltage drop .
Thats when you need to sleuth it out . yse a DVM in Voltage on the DC & AC side to see where your getting the drop .
Under size wire for start-up loads is my mostly seen .
VT
VT nailed it, poor connection... took a few trips around to detect it.
however when it happens on the grid it can also be an imbalance between the feed lines, and then you have to convince the Utility to come out and fix it &/or stop your neighbour from turning on his big old WELDER...
So to see Imbalance of legs , you need two DVMs hook across both legs & see what leg has been dragged down .
If the Neutral (Grid feed power ) is weak or is using your main ground for a failed service pole ground for the Grid transformer , then winks are all over . Use a DVM and never touch anything without a DVM , make sure with a dvm when the winks happen , power needs good feeds & AC needs great grounds..
So to make sure to use the back of your hand fingers pointed towards your face , the hair on your fingers will feel it & if its DC , you won't grab I seize on to a line ..
VT
Thanks for the replies. So I tested some things based our your suggestions.
I think the "Wink" / Flash I am seeing must be either the Inverter or at best on the DC side. If I turn all circuits to the AC Grid fed power where no circuit or wire goes thru the Inverter load panel, I see almost not "wink"/flash at all.
If I re-route all the circuits thru the Inverter load panel, but turn the Inverter off and allowing the AC Grid Line in to the Inverter to supply the loads (the inverter itself is bypassed and AC is simply passed thru) I see no "Wink" / Flash at all. In this config, the load to the well pump and all lights are passing thru the Inverter load panel, the Transfer switch panel and the Main house panel ... BUT ... rather than the power coming from a DC source like Solar or Batteries and then Inverted from DC to AC, the AC power is being supplied by the grid, thru the inverter box, but the inverter is off.
So in testing using both above scenarios, This has allowed me to test and ask, is the problem either a connection at an AC wire nut connection, AC breaker or bus bar or wire size. The answer would be most likely NO. As the "wink"/Flash is NOT occurring when connected this way.
OK, so turn off AC Grid power in to the inverter, Turn the Inverter on, and switch/connect all circuits to the inverter that is now being powered by a DC source such as battery or Solar. With lights on, Turn on the well pump .... Lights "Wink"/Flash when the load is applied at the initial millisecond start up surge. So it is ONLY occurring when the Inverter is inverting, and does not appear to be caused by AC wiring or wire size (all of which is over sized for the loads)
So on to DC. Is it battery cable size. Well it is not size, I am using 4/0 for a max load of less than 100 DC amps. DC breaker is 250amp. Could it be battery cable length? That is 10 ft. Screw Connections are all tight. Might be the compression fitting between the battery cable and lugs???
I supposed it might be that the battery bank cannot handle the instantaneous surge amps for just the start up ... but I have run the system in a continuous state at or above the surge loads (I have run the system at 3000 watts for several minutes) and do not experience a brown out.
So In the case of my lights flickering, before the pump comes on, the loads is at about 150 watts. When the pump starts and runs, the load levels out to about 850 watts. I do not know how hi the surge is for pump start, but I have never measured more than 950 watts at the pumps start up by itself. It runs at 745 watts.
So it seems it is either the way that my inverter is - which if this is not typical of inverters, is a warranty issue. OR, it is a DC battery cable or lug connection, OR it is that my battery bank just is not large enough to support the load for the surge. ????????? Any other ideas?
But it is this surge, while on Inverter and DC power, that has caused me not to us AUX 1 except in modes where conditions turn on and off one time in a cycle, basically once per day. Modes like Waste Not Hi or Diversion will turn off and on several times in just a few minutes. Modes like SOC% Hi will turn on once and off once.
Ideas?
Also tested with a DVM on the battery + and - posts. With no Solar source coming in, no charging taking place, batteries are 98% charged and resting at 26.7v (24v 435ah battery bank). The load is at 85 watts.
Turn on the pump, and the voltage changes so fast on the DVM that i can hardly see what happens, but it appeared to never sag below 25v and instantly leveled off at 25.7v while the pump was running. Turn the pump off and battery DC voltage returns to 26.6v
Matrix,
Some types of lights are fairly susceptible to fairly small, but quick changes in AC Line voltage.
Some Inverters are notorious for regulating AC output voltage relatively slowly.
Classic Florescent lights with low-frequency Ballasts, and some LED lights seem quite sensitive to motor starting loads causing flicker.
You might want to experiment with different brands and styles of light fixtures.
I have not heard of/read about the Conext SW line of inverter/chargers being slow at regulating AC output with short Surge loads ...
FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
So lets test another hi load source. Rather than an inductive load like a 750w 110v pump on L2 of the inverter, lets try a 1025w 110v AC water heater element on L1 of the inverter.
Load is at 85watts. Turn on the water heater element ... the "wink"/flash in the lights is almost not detectable. And certainly not like the start of the pump.
Any other tests I should run? Is this typical of an Inverter? Or should I call Schneider Electric about this Conext SW 4024 Inverter ??
Quote from: Vic on December 20, 2017, 02:06:55 PM
Matrix,
Some types of lights are fairly susceptible to fairly small, but quick changes in AC Line voltage.
Some Inverters are notorious for regulating AC output voltage relatively slowly.
Classic Florescent lights with low-frequency Ballasts, and some LED lights seem quite sensitive to motor starting loads causing flicker.
You might want to experiment with different brands and styles of light fixtures.
I have not heard of/read about the Conext SW line of inverter/chargers being slow at regulating AC output with short Surge loads ...
FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
Thanks. will try other lights. Any chance I got a bad inverter? It is only 2 months old.
Our Posts crossed,
One other thing regarding the effective impedance of the battery.
Batteries that have been fully-charged, but with little charge power available (like when the sun fades); Lead Acid batteries have relatively high impedance when they are just off charge (and when they are nearly fully-depleted). This highish impedance means that for a given load current on the battery, there will be a significantly larger battery terminal voltage reduction, compared to a battery being operated in the "flat voltage" portion of the curve, or when there is significant PV power available.
In the case of batteries that had been fully-charged quite recently, much of this effect probably comes from Surface Charge.
FWIW, Vic
Incandescent Christmas tree lights do not "wink"/flicker at all when pump starts up.
Quote from: Matrix on December 20, 2017, 02:19:21 PM
Incandescent Christmas tree lights do not "wink"/flicker at all when pump starts up.
Yes, most incandescent bulbs are fairly slow in responding to rapid changes in applied voltage.
AND, generally, even high quality inverter/chargers have few, if any specs on output AC voltage verses load changes, and as such, this would probably not be a Warranty issue, IMO. Would guess that such performance of inverters would probably be from design trade-offs/decisions made during product design.
Some/many of these decisions are probably based on cost considerations needed to meet a certain target selling price, size, weight, etc ...
Certainly battery condition/performance, and interconnect design and construction can have a very large effect of flicker on lighting products ...
Just guesses/opinions, am not a Power Electronics design engineer. Vic
Quote from: Vic on December 20, 2017, 02:35:00 PM
Yes, most incandescent bulbs are fairly slow in responding to rapid changes in applied voltage.
AND, generally, even high quality inverter/chargers have few, if any specs on output AC voltage verses load changes, and as such, this would probably not be a Warranty issue, IMO. Would guess that such performance of inverters would probably be from design trade-offs/decisions made during product design.
Some/many of these decisions are probably based on cost considerations needed to meet a certain target selling price, size, weight, etc ...
Certainly battery condition/performance, and interconnect design and construction can have a very large effect of flicker on lighting products ...
Just guesses/opinions, am not a Power Electronics design engineer. Vic
Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for your input.
So back to the reason I originally posted this firmware update request ... Would the "Wink"/Flicker that is being picked up by some of my lighting cause problems for more sensitive equipment like Refrigerators with printed circuit boards, or modems/routers, computers etc??? (assuming the issues is indeed the Inverter and not something I can track down as a loose connection)
Matrix,
In general, devices that have Switching power supplies (like Computers, Routers, TVs, etc) are able to "ride through" small bumps in the AC voltage, and usually even Brown-outs.
Inexpensive DMMs take samples of their inputs SO slowly, that they are generally useless in trying to actually measure short changes of their inputs.
On the other hand, IMO, your inverter DC cables are about twice the maximum length that I would like to use. Even at shorter lengths, you will want these cables to be close to each other (ideally twisted together).
If you could fairly easily reduce the length to about five feet, that could help.
You could try to measure the temperature of each battery cable connection with an IR heat gun. You would want a heavy load on the inverter, or have heavy charging currents for ten or so minutes to allow the lug/terminal temperatures to rise and stabilize. Absolutes are not as important as differences, because it can be difficult to say how much temperature rise is good or not so good.
You CAN measure the total voltage drop of each cable using the millivolt scale on your DMM, also under a constant high current out of or into the batteries. This will be the total drop of the cable, crimps and lugs.
FWIW, Vic
Later, Vic
Thanks Vic, I will give measuring the voltage at both ends of the cables a try.
when you say ...
Quote
you will want these cables to be close to each other (ideally twisted together).
... do you mean twist the negative and positive battery cables together? Not being sarcastic, but what would be the benefit of that? I would be easy to do it. Right now, they are ran thru a 2" piece of flex conduit. There is plenty of room for air in there (they are not tight in the conduit).
But it is not practical to cut them much. I could probably get them about 2 foot shorter down to about 8 foot. But that is about as short as I could get them for the location.
(http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3922.0;attach=6296;image)
The battery posts are in the far right side of the battery box, and the 4/0 cable is inside the 2" conduit, but as you cans see this is as close as I can get the batteries and still have them outside in the carport for venting purposes.
Quote from: Matrix on December 20, 2017, 02:08:46 PM
So lets test another hi load source. Rather than an inductive load like a 750w 110v pump on L2 of the inverter, lets try a 1025w 110v AC water heater element on L1 of the inverter.
Load is at 85watts. Turn on the water heater element ... the "wink"/flash in the lights is almost not detectable. And certainly not like the start of the pump.
Any other tests I should run? Is this typical of an Inverter? Or should I call Schneider Electric about this Conext SW 4024 Inverter ??
Load of Water heater element ??
Im thinking the Water pump is A capacitor start type & poorly matched . (cap to windings)
I had a log splitter (Asian from a box store , No Backup help) blow a motor run cap 60uF , only had a different size of uF , the winks were bad on Grid power & the motor startup was slower . Bought a well made 60uF Cap & all is fine , quick starts & not even a flicker .. Reading your only loading one leg 110V , you will see some flicker , 220Vac would be less imbalance , but cheap motors will do that .
grundfos pumps are pretty easy on the surges
VT
Matrix,
Regarding twisting the inverter cables together, was referring ONLY to the ten foot cables connecting the inverter to the battery, so, only those two cables.
When those cables are in very close proximity to each other the self inductance of each cable is reduced. When they are twisted together, the self inductance is further-reduced.
Inductance is the property that impedes the flow of current. The impedance to current flow will show result in greater voltage drop, for a period of time. SO, reducing this inductance is a good thing, and should reduce the dynamic voltage drop that the inverter sees.
This twisting of cables has nothing to do with the battery interconnect cables.
Vic
Thanks. I figured u meant just the main battery cables. I will indeed do that when I take it all apart and shorten the cables. I think I can shorten them by about 2 foot
Quote from: Vic on December 20, 2017, 11:29:29 PM
Matrix,
Regarding twisting the inverter cables together, was referring ONLY to the ten foot cables connecting the inverter to the battery, so, only those two cables.
When those cables are in very close proximity to each other the self inductance of each cable is reduced. When they are twisted together, the self inductance is further-reduced.
Inductance is the property that impedes the flow of current. The impedance to current flow will show result in greater voltage drop, for a period of time. SO, reducing this inductance is a good thing, and should reduce the dynamic voltage drop that the inverter sees.
This twisting of cables has nothing to do with the battery interconnect cables.
Vic
Also for Boats with Compasses etc , It will diminish the onboard Variation for deflection when power is used called Deviation !!
Tight twists = Cable size (dia) x 3 is what we did on plastic boats
VT
Just light your house with Christmas lights and the problem will go away !
Depending on the pump you have, you can have huge DC surges when it starts, 3 wire pumps less surge than 2 wire
(this is the difference with external capacitor and starting relay - not 1 or 3 phase motor). Some inverters sag under heavy loads, batteries may not be able to keep up with the load.
Water heater element test would be good, pure resistance, no power factor issues.
Water heater test at about 1050 watts was good. Very minimal flash / sag at start up when I did it once... But... It was a water heater element on a diversion waste not hi mode set up that triggered me to the flashing in the system in the first place. Seems when the sun starts to diminish, the Aux 1 turns on and off several times a minute.. Noticed one afternoon late my lights flashing each time the element started.
So it seems amps would be a much better trigger than battery volts for many of the options of the Auxes.
When I use my electric heat gun, the fluorescent shop lights make it look like a disco. I'm guessing the heat gun pulses to control element temperature, and the inverters can't keep up. The pair of Outbacks can run much larger loads (eg. multiple pumps at once), but the heat gun really freaks them out vs the lights.
My STEINEL heat gun 1200W in full 700 in 1/2 is what I use to pull a load on a small genset when serviceing or testing.
I don't see any pulse of power or winks on solar . You sure you don't have a poor connection ? Voltage drop , ?
Take a voltage reading while under load & move closer to the supply .
VT
I am going to pull the whole system apart and redo every connection after the first of they year. Also have a friend at a battery shop that has a hydraulic press battery cable lug crimp tool. And I have plenty of new, extra lugs, so I will remake all cables with that. Guess I'll know for use if it is connections then.
DVM in auto sensing mode FIRST !! & if you find a V-drop , then make the DVM static Voltage @ 20Vdc & move down to see how bad . One wire lead on the connection / crimp & one on the copper wire the crimp is crimped to , then the other end . Thats how we sleuth out the bad connections , This is all done UNDER load & HOT working , DC first .
I use a Fluke meter for this .
Cheaper than all new ends , & recrimp (Hydraulic Swedge ) your's if they show good .
I have foud some with a heat gun , but thats because I didn't have my Hot gloves
VT
OK so I have tested everything, pulled the whole system down and re-did every AC and DC connection between the battery and the inverter and the inverter and the AC main panel that feeds the house. Still getting a power wink with even the 1050 watt water heater element comes on.
I also rewired my 1/2 HP pump to 240v to take advantage of my inverters 240 split load distribution. Doing this put 3.8 amps on L1 and L2 when the pump is running. The inverter is rated for 30 amp spike for motor start up. Using a Max Hold clamp amp meter, The most I was able to get the pump to spike was 14 amps total (or 7 amps per leg). But I think the response time of my meter might be slow so I am not "seeing" the true spike. Some sites on 1/2 HP pump motors I have seen rate the spike at 25-32 amps for these motors. Dont know. But my lights still dim / Flash ever so briefly when the pump comes on.
I know it is not the house AC wiring, as this does not happen if I run the pump off the grid. My only other thought might be that the battery bank just is not large enough to handle that load for that very brief second at start up.
So wondering if I have a bad inverter as I thought this inverter was large enough to handle a 1/2 HP pump. (inverter = Schneider Conext SW 4024)
use a DVM in MAX -MIN readings and see what the voltage drop or the least Voltage it records , I use a Fluke or Pico for that & then I do the math to get close to the amp draw.
VT