I am a complete beginner. And this is my first post here. I bought a pre-wired Midnite 150+Schneider 4048 combo. I already have the batteries and panels connected to it. I noticed that when the charger is not charging (I turn off the charging) the input voltage is higher than 100 volts (it was overcast). When I turn the charging on the voltage goes down to around 50 to 60 volts and the charging power is around 80 watts... That doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I am wrong. Is this the controller lowering the voltage in order to not overload the batteries? There is currently no load on the inverter (waiting for the electrician to come). The inverter is reporting the batteries are about 75% full, voltage around 50V. The inverter is currently set to 377 Ah battery capacity.
When you say you turn off the charging does that mean you shut off the breaker for the solar panels ?
It is kind of hard to tell what is going on when you don't have any loads on the system.
The other info needed to know what is going on is you need to read the MNGP display and see what state of charge it is in when you are charging and also when you shut off the solar.
You also need to tell us what the charging parameters are set for - Absorb Voltage Absorb Time Float , etc.
Since you don't have any load on your system the batteries are probably in Float . The inverter on will be something of a load - though depending on how that is programmed it could be drawing very little current and sleeping waiting for a load.
An MPPT controller can adjust the voltage to find the point where the current is at it's maximum. Since your batteries are full and don't need to be charged then it might do things that don't seem right. And if the battery are new they usually need to be cycled before they will start showing their capacity and may not seem like they are acting normal either. Not sure what kind of batteries you have.
Okay -- I didn't see your photos when I wrote this . I am looking at them now
Larry
I looked at your photos - I never use the Classic to turn the Solar off like you did there.
But everything looks like it probably should .
You really can't tell what is going on until you get some loads on your system and cycle your batteries .
Also still need to know what kind of batteries and the charging set points.
One thing I don't understand - not related to your questions - is that when I try to post photos on the group it will say photos limited to certain size and I often have to shrink them. Your photos when I click on them fill not just the whole screen on my laptop but about four times my laptop screen. I just don't get how some photos like yours are so huge but the ones I always have to post are so much smaller. Anyone know the answer to that?
Larry
Sorry about the photos. This forum takes ages to load. It took me 30 minutes to load those photos... I'm going to try again with some new ones.
When I say I turn off the charging I mean turn it off in the menu.
I added some photos with the voltage settings. I have 8 Trojan Premium 06 415 batteries, 377 Ah bank.
About the photos, I am using an Android app that reduces the size without reducing the resolution. It's quite good.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tappuma.reduce.photo.size
For the photos - change the setting on the photo size in the camera to take a smaller photo - less megapixels. The other option is to use a photo editor like Irfanview to resize the photos to something smaller.
Can't comment on your setpoints - you need to see what your battery manufacturer recommends. Also what they say for the proper break in if they are new batteries.
Leave your Classic in Solar and if you want to shut of PV input use the breaker for them instead.
Better wait until you get some loads on your system and start cycling those batteries and charging them - and then you can start to figure out how the system works .
Larry
Oh okay on the photos - I will look up the app - but it seems to do the opposite of what I would want it to - makes the photo so big I have hard time seeing it and have to do a lot of scrolling around to even find the screen.
Regarding the batteries - look up Trojan specs as I mentioned in my last reply .
Larry
One of the pics shows that Mode = Off. So the Classic is Resting. This means that there is NO loading on the PVs. This makes the PV voltage rise -- it is essentially at a Voc for the temperature of the PVs, and for that amount of sun. This IS normal.
The pics are so huge that it is nearly impossible to find the info on the MNGP screen.
If you could shrink the pics, they would load much faster, and would allow many of us to actually see what is on the screens.
Vic
Regarding your app - which option did you choose to use on your photos - reduce size or resize image ?
Which ever one you used - try the other one ! - ha ha .
Larry
Reduce size, 40%.
And for some reason the forum is loading fine now.
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on September 04, 2018, 11:03:58 PM
Regarding your app - which option did you choose to use on your photos - reduce size or resize image ?
Which ever one you used - try the other one ! - ha ha .
Larry
Oh! Is it too big? I just reduced the size because of the file size limit. I like big photos. :P
Jose,
What is the rated string voltage for your PVs, or what brand and model of PVs, and how many of these PVs in each string?
From your first post, it looks like there may not be high enough input voltage to the Classic.
Here is a Link to the Classic String Sizing Tool:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/displaySizing.php
This will help you choose the string configuration, etc.
Vic
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 04, 2018, 11:07:08 PM
Reduce size, 40%.
Yeah next time try resize image a lot smaller ! That other option must just keep the same size photo but make the file size seem smaller .
Way too big ! At least I know how that is done now .
This is what your photo size says 4608x2592 - no wonder it is so big on my laptop screen !
Larry
Quote from: Vic on September 04, 2018, 11:22:13 PM
Jose,
What is the rated string voltage for your PVs, or what brand and model of PVs, and how many of these PVs in each string?
From your first post, it looks like there may not be high enough input voltage to the Classic.
Here is a Link to the Classic String Sizing Tool:
I have 3 strings of 3 SolarWorld 295W, total Vmpp of 119 V.
OK Jose,
That almost looks like the STC string Voc.
But, in any event, strings of three is about the best that you can do ... think that SW 295s are 60-cell PVs. Will look them up.
Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Vic on September 04, 2018, 11:31:28 PM
OK Jose,
That almost looks like the STC string Voc.
But, in any event, strings of three is about the best that you can do ... think that SW 295s are 60-cell PVs. Will look them up.
Thanks, Vic
Yes they are 60 cells.
Jose,
The STC Vmp of SW 295s is 32.3, so strings of three have an STC string Vmp of essentially 97 volts. As perfect as you can get on a 48 V system.
Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Vic on September 04, 2018, 11:35:55 PM
Jose,
The STC Vmp of SW 295s is 32.3, so strings of three have an STC string Vmp of essentially 97 volts. As perfect as you can get on a 48 V system.
Thanks, Vic
I gave you wrong numbers.
My panels are the SW 295W, Vmp 31.5
Jose,
The differences between these exact PVs are quite small.
In looking at the SWA 295 Mono Black vs the 295 with natural frame color is 0.1 Vmp. Really matters not. Still see SW 295 at 32.3, vs 32.4 for the Black frame.
Your strings of three 60-Cell PVs on a 48 V system really is perfect with a Classic 150. Strings of two = string Vmp too low, strings of four Vmp too high. 3=perfect.
FWIW, good luck with the system. Vic
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 04, 2018, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: Vic on September 04, 2018, 11:35:55 PM
Jose,
The STC Vmp of SW 295s is 32.3, so strings of three have an STC string Vmp of essentially 97 volts. As perfect as you can get on a 48 V system.
Thanks, Vic
I gave you wrong numbers.
My panels are the SW 295W, Vmp 31.5
OH, now I understand, had thought you meant that you had given incorrect PV model numbers ... obviously (to me, now), that you were referring to incorrect total Vmp.
Thanks, and have fun with the system. Vic
Hello. I'm back. And still not having fun. :)
Everything is working fine with my system, except charging from the panels. I'm not sure what's going on. The system keeps jumping from Resting to Bulk. When it's in Bulk mode it only seems to be putting about 15W to the batteries. They are not charging. The charger mode is on. Battery charging parameters are to spec. Battery capacity is set correctly. I don't know what's going on. I can charge the batteries just fine using the inverter (it's currently set to charge during the night, in case there wasn't enough sun light to charge during the day).
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 23, 2018, 01:07:59 PM
Hello. I'm back. And still not having fun. :)
Everything is working fine with my system, except charging from the panels. I'm not sure what's going on. The system keeps jumping from Resting to Bulk. When it's in Bulk mode it only seems to be putting about 15W to the batteries. They are not charging. The charger mode is on. Battery charging parameters are to spec. Battery capacity is set correctly. I don't know what's going on. I can charge the batteries just fine using the inverter (it's currently set to charge during the night, in case there wasn't enough sun light to charge during the day).
Jose,
When the Classic is putting 15 W into the batteries, what is the charge Stage?
What are the Classic Firmware Version numbers for the Classic, MNGP and Network?
What is the charge Mode that you are using?
What are the Hydrometer readings for battery Specific Gravity (SG)? Asking if the battery needs some charge at that time. You need a good quality glass type Hydrometer with what appear to be Trojan Flooded batteries ...
Later, Thanks for any added info. Vic
Jose, when you see less than around 20 watts for around 90 seconds, the Classic will go to resting and wake up again so many seconds later like, maybe 10 to 20 seconds later...
The question is, why are you only seeing 15 watts ? If the stage is BULK MPPT, then you will need to evaluate the PV input voltage that the controller is running at.
Please take note of the PV input voltage in Resting mode (the Voc) and the PV voltage when in BULK MPPT and let us know what that is. This will give us an idea on the tracking of the PV array. Sometimes this can indicate various issues as partial shading and even bad connections or defective Classic.
Also what is the Classic's output current and battery voltage ?
Thanks,
boB
Quote from: boB on September 23, 2018, 03:58:50 PM
Jose, when you see less than around 20 watts for around 90 seconds, the Classic will go to resting and wake up again so many seconds later like, maybe 10 to 20 seconds later...
The question is, why are you only seeing 15 watts ? If the stage is BULK MPPT, then you will need to evaluate the PV input voltage that the controller is running at.
Please take note of the PV input voltage in Resting mode (the Voc) and the PV voltage when in BULK MPPT and let us know what that is. This will give us an idea on the tracking of the PV array. Sometimes this can indicate various issues as partial shading and even bad connections or defective Classic.
Also what is the Classic's output current and battery voltage ?
Thanks,
boB
Bob,
Voc=~110V
When in bulk stage the voltage gets down to around 54 to 56 V. Current is around 0.1 to 0.3 A.
Partial shading is impossible in my case, as there is nothing to cast shadows around the panels.
I think I mentioned it earlier, but this is a pre-assembled system. The Classic 150 and Schneider SW4048 comes pre-installed on a Midnite E Panel. So if there is anything installed wrong, it has to be the PV cables (it's impossible to put the batteries cables wrong, plus I know they are charging with the inverter). However, the MN E Panel is really easy to install. Everything is labeled. And the charger is seeing the panels Voc... I doubt I got a defective unit, since it is tested before shipping... I made a ticket with Midnite. I am planing on staying at home tomorrow, or coming earlier from work, in order to solve this with MN.
I am really hoping this is a settings issue...
Jose,
AND, Please check the PV Combiner box wiring, and each connection in the Combiner (the breaker connections, and at the negative busbar). These need to be tight. These connections will loosen with the passage of time.
With strings of three of these PVs, the voltages at the combiner are high enough to possibly be LETHAL, so be very careful (or ask your electrician) to check these.
Also, please check the connections of the cables that attach to the input breaker in the MidNite Panel, and the connection to the battery breaker.
You could switch off the breakers in the Combiner, and make certain that each string of PVs is showing similar Voc readings.
Also check where the PV cables connect together for each string. Make certain that MC4 connectors on each PV are tight.
There was an early version of Classic Firmware that would Sweep the PV input voltage down to about 5.5 volts above battery voltage, and hang there. In those cases, IIRC, the PV production was very low ...
SO, please DO let us know the Firmware version numbers.
Speaking of Settings, what IS the Setting for Absorb voltage in the Classic?
ANY shading of the PVs, at all will usually diminish PV production by large amounts.
Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 23, 2018, 04:08:56 PM
Bob,
Voc=~110V
When in bulk stage the voltage gets down to around 54 to 56 V. Current is around 0.1 to 0.3 A.
Partial shading is impossible in my case, as there is nothing to cast shadows around the panels.
I think I mentioned it earlier, but this is a pre-assembled system. The Classic 150 and Schneider SW4048 comes pre-installed on a Midnite E Panel. So if there is anything installed wrong, it has to be the PV cables (it's impossible to put the batteries cables wrong, plus I know they are charging with the inverter). However, the MN E Panel is really easy to install. Everything is labeled. And the charger is seeing the panels Voc... I doubt I got a defective unit, since it is tested before shipping... I made a ticket with Midnite. I am planing on staying at home tomorrow, or coming earlier from work, in order to solve this with MN.
OK, this sounds like a possible bad PV connection, given the numbers you gave me.... Voc = 110 and Vmpp = 56V
Normally, the maximum power point voltage should be somewhere around 78% of Voc and that would be in the 80V range.
One thing I would try is to change the MPPT MODE in the Classic from SOLAR to Legacy P&O and see where the input voltage ends.
If you are getting similar results in full sun, then you most likely have a bad PV connection somewhere.
Even if the Classic was mis-tracking in SOLAR mode, you should be getting a LOT more power than 15 watts even at that PV input voltage so I am guessing loose connection or bad circuit breaker or something like that.
boB
Voltage went up to 74.2V.
By the way, it's 5 PM here... Almost no sun. But still goes from 56 to 72V.
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 23, 2018, 04:59:42 PM
By the way, it's 5 PM here... Almost no sun. But still goes from 56 to 72V.
When the sun goes down good time to check all the connections mentioned above. Turn off all the breakers to PV and battery , use a good screwdriver ( insulated is best but if you are careful or tape up the metal sides on the screwdriver for safety is okay ) - be careful not to short across any two wires . Tighten all the screw connections you can see - if you find some kind of loose on the PV breakers or combiner -- that is probably your problem.
Larry
Will need to check tomorrow during the day I think...
Did the power go up any ? With bad connections, SOLAR mode will probably find the MPP Voltage at the lower voltage like you had
before and Legacy P&O may rise some but still won't get very good performance.
Check connections now or wait to tomorrow if you can.
boB
I just checked the connections and the voltages at the combiner. Everything was OK. Voltage was 89V but there is no sun at all...
Also opened the E Panel and checked all the cables. Everything is tight and in the right place...
How many watts is your PV array rating ?
Could check short circuit current during full sun.... OR maybe better, connect the positive PV wire directly to the battery positive (or + bus) and measure the current.
If it measures a LOT more than you saw today with the Classic, then something might be up with the Classic. I would not expect or understand that last scenario though.
boB
I will do this tomorrow. I am going to have to do this on each line, because my multimeter can do only 10A.
I had to go check the Classic because it as making an alarm sound. Like an ambulance siren! What is that??? I could no find the manual or anywhere else in the internet.
This is the DOCUMENTS page http://www.midnitesolar.com/documentIndex.php
You will find the link, if you click on in the UPPER right of the page that you post from, under the BOLD 'NEWS'
look in the list in the link and you will see ''Classic' there you will find another link to several versions of the Classic manuals '
hth...
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 24, 2018, 07:21:07 PM
I had to go check the Classic because it as making an alarm sound. Like an ambulance siren! What is that??? I could no find the manual or anywhere else in the internet.
Not sure why it was doing that. It can happen with an Arc Fault or ground fault. I have hear it very rarely, make a beep sound but would be short lived.
Did you catch it in the act and find out what it was ?
Quote from: Westbranch on September 25, 2018, 12:26:49 AM
This is the DOCUMENTS page http://www.midnitesolar.com/documentIndex.php
You will find the link, if you click on in the UPPER right of the page that you post from, under the BOLD 'NEWS'
look in the list in the link and you will see ''Classic' there you will find another link to several versions of the Classic manuals '
hth...
Thanks. But I did find the manual. What I could not find was any mention of alarms or sound codes.
Quote from: boB on September 25, 2018, 12:53:27 AM
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 24, 2018, 07:21:07 PM
I had to go check the Classic because it as making an alarm sound. Like an ambulance siren! What is that??? I could no find the manual or anywhere else in the internet.
Not sure why it was doing that. It can happen with an Arc Fault or ground fault. I have hear it very rarely, make a beep sound but would be short lived.
Did you catch it in the act and find out what it was ?
I did catch it in the act, I think... But there was nothing in the screen. Just the normal text.
If you have the Classic with Voice features and Chatty Cathy on the Classic will randomly make all different kinds of sound effects or voices when it changes state . The siren is one of them. It has made me jump a couple times !
Larry
It has spoken to me a couple of times, in a soft voice... But this one was scarry!
if you have the voice feature activated and Chatty Cathy is what I have - it will say all kinds of stuff , sound effects, etc .
And it will read off the screen of the MNGP depending which one is displayed at the time - some it doesn't read.
At least it does on mine - might depend on what voice stuff was loaded up in it and if Midnite changed any of the files since the Beta trials which is where I got mine from.
The other day I friend walked in the door and just then it said " I have a bad feeling about this " ha ha incredible timing .
Larry
Jose, can you please look at the revision and date of the MNGP code ?
Just press STATUS several times until you get that information screen.
Maybe the Classic rev too but mainly the MNGP rev.
We have revised the MNGP code a time or two to help with this alarm noise issue but I thought that
it only happened when the ENTER button was pressed in the main STATUS menu. Maybe there was
a version that had some randomness to this noise ? I have alerted the engineer about this thread.
Thanks,
boB
Thanks boB. I'll check the versions when I get home.
Oh, Just heard from Andrew... There IS a siren sound in Chatty-Kathy audio mode that will come up some times. He needed to fill one of those
sounds with something temporarily.
If it is this that is causing that sound and you don't want to hear it, go to the MISC menu. Then AUDIO menu (or SOUND ?)
and change from Chatty-Kathy to VERBOSE maybe ? You can also turn it OFF if you like which should be RICK MODE.
I think that RICK MODE will only make noise when there is an error that you will want to know about. No sirens or
alarms that I know of. The siren you heard MAY have been a Star Trek type sound ?
boB
Quote from: boB on September 25, 2018, 03:40:20 PM
Oh, Just heard from Andrew... There IS a siren sound in Chatty-Kathy audio mode that will come up some times. He needed to fill one of those
sounds with something temporarily.
If it is this that is causing that sound and you don't want to hear it, go to the MISC menu. Then AUDIO menu (or SOUND ?)
and change from Chatty-Kathy to VERBOSE maybe ? You can also turn it OFF if you like which should be RICK MODE.
I think that RICK MODE will only make noise when there is an error that you will want to know about. No sirens or
alarms that I know of. The siren you heard MAY have been a Star Trek type sound ?
boB
boB -
I don't mind all the silly sounds and voices talking - kind of funny. I just wish there was a one button solution like Enter - to mute them - like if I am on the phone and they start talking --it is really hard to shut them off without a lot of button pushing.
Larry
Quote from: boB on September 25, 2018, 03:40:20 PM
Oh, Just heard from Andrew... There IS a siren sound in Chatty-Kathy audio mode that will come up some times. He needed to fill one of those
sounds with something temporarily.
If it is this that is causing that sound and you don't want to hear it, go to the MISC menu. Then AUDIO menu (or SOUND ?)
and change from Chatty-Kathy to VERBOSE maybe ? You can also turn it OFF if you like which should be RICK MODE.
I think that RICK MODE will only make noise when there is an error that you will want to know about. No sirens or
alarms that I know of. The siren you heard MAY have been a Star Trek type sound ?
boB
It was in Rick Mode.
Quote from: boB on September 25, 2018, 02:29:18 PM
Jose, can you please look at the revision and date of the MNGP code ?
Just press STATUS several times until you get that information screen.
Maybe the Classic rev too but mainly the MNGP rev.
We have revised the MNGP code a time or two to help with this alarm noise issue but I thought that
it only happened when the ENTER button was pressed in the main STATUS menu. Maybe there was
a version that had some randomness to this noise ? I have alerted the engineer about this thread.
Thanks,
boB
MNGP: 2186
Classic: 2126
I think I have an outdated firmware... Should I upgrade it?
Yes, sorry but I cant locate the list of matching F W versions to MNGP Version...
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 25, 2018, 08:11:00 PM
I think I have an outdated firmware... Should I upgrade it?
No, I don't think there is a new version YET. This must be a bug.
I really like the idea for a MUTE button !
Any news on the low power yet ?
boB
The electrician is coming tomorrow during the afternoon. I will let you know.
What do you mean with a bug? That the Classic has a bug in the current firmware that shows the wrong version number?
Quote from: Jose Miranda on September 26, 2018, 05:50:11 PM
The electrician is coming tomorrow during the afternoon. I will let you know.
What do you mean with a bug? That the Classic has a bug in the current firmware that shows the wrong version number?
No, just that you heard a noise when it was set to Rick Mode. i.e. It should have been quiet ?
boB
Problem solved!
The negative and ground PV wires were inverted. The electrician noticed the error and swapped them, and it is working correctly now! Thanks for the help!
WoW ! Interesting issue ! Have never heard of that one before !
Thank you Jose for letting us know.
Carry on....
boB
jose miranda,
i want to know who was inverting those wires.
When the PV is in overcast conditions the classic will drag the voltage down more than normal to find the maximum current output in amps out of the array,
With 3 modules running around 120 volts open circuit when it is in ideal conditions and in bulk mppt I would expect about 96 volts.