I'm running a Midnite Classic controller with 970 Watt, 24V array, into a 12V load of 4x 125Ah AGM batteries hanging off a Xantrex inverter.
The amperage ramps up to around 44 amps, then suddenly drops to zero, then repeats. I have a video of it here:
https://youtu.be/nAMLfO_dpzM
I'm just building it, so the installation is rough, but I want to figure out if this is normal, or whether there are issues. I've run numerous other Morningstar controllers into AGM's and they didn't seem to do this.
not normal in my experience...
Did you set a max limit for the charge Amps or limited the max. volts out from the Classic?
It would probably be more helpful to try and diagnose if you had video of the Classic MNGP screen since it would show more info - state of charge, input voltage , AH, and battery voltage all at the same time.
I didn't see it just drop suddenly to zero - I saw the power scaling slowly back before it did . So hard to say since there is no way to know what the state it was in when it did that and couldn't tell what the battery voltage was doing .
Have you checked all your connections to see that they are tight like on breakers and other places in system ? Also feel your batteries to see if any of those AGM are getting warmer than others.
Larry
Is the Classic new and just out of the box?...there is a start-up procedure in order to set it up for it's initial run.
Quote from: silverstr8p on August 24, 2019, 04:25:50 PM
I'm running a Midnite Classic controller with 970 Watt, 24V array, into a 12V load of 4x 125Ah AGM batteries hanging off a Xantrex inverter.
The amperage ramps up to around 44 amps, then suddenly drops to zero, then repeats. I have a video of it here:
https://youtu.be/nAMLfO_dpzM
I'm just building it, so the installation is rough, but I want to figure out if this is normal, or whether there are issues. I've run numerous other Morningstar controllers into AGM's and they didn't seem to do this.
I just read your post again and don't quite understand your system. Can you explain more in detail how this is wired up ?
Is the charging from the Classic going right to the batteries ?
Larry
Thanks all for the information.
@Westbranch I bought it used on consignment from the local solar dealer guy, he said he tested it and set it up for my application. I will check the DIP switches (there's a ton of them, like 20) and report back. He seems pretty knowledgeable in general and had good confidence in the condition of this unit, claims he tested it. I called him with the symptoms. He thought this may have something to do with the MPPT function, what do you all think, is that possible it's just "searching" for the best charge situation for a given load? I really don't understand how that could be the case, but open to learn. The battery voltage (on both the analog and digital volt meters permanently wired in, shown in the video) don't seem to fluctuate much when this behavior is happening.
@ClassicCrazy It has the cutout for the screen, but there's nothing in there besides a blackout plate, so it doesn't have a readout, just a few LED lights on the front that blink every once in awhile, like maybe once a minute or two apart. The batteries aren't getting warm. I checked for voltage drop across all of the inline connections from the charge controller to the batteries and there's almost none (like around 0.05VDC with my horrible meter), and they don't appear to be getting warm or discoloring the insulation suggesting they're too hot.
The output of the Classic (via 6 gauge stranded wire with soldered on connectors) goes to a 50A Ammeter (shown with blue plastic background on video), then a 50A DC breaker, then a terminal block, then a short wire to the battery post wire as it connects to the + and - terminal on the Xantrex pure sine wave 2kW inverter. The wire coming from the VMax solar AGM batteries is probably 3/4" thick and about 7 feet long, and has a huge fuse inline on the positive lead. Also hooked to the + and - posts on the Xantrex is a Morningstar Tri-Star acting as a dump load into a couple giant resistors about a foot long.
Your system seems like it is not typical . It almost seemed to me when I first saw it that something else was messing with the way the Classic is sweeping for MPPT . Could be that dump load .
Hard to say which model Classic you have - there were different versions of them - there was a Classic Lite that did not come with MNGP just an LED panel but from what you describe it could be a different model that just had the MNGP removed.
I guess the dip switches seem to indicate a Classic Lite ? I never had that model but others may be familiar with it. You should get a photo or write down each position of the dip switches and then look at the Classic Lite manual . If it is a Classic Lite you can hook up computer and use the Local Status App to monitor and program ( I think if dip switch is in proper position to allow that ).
You may also want to take some photos of your wiring or maybe better yet draw out a schematic of your wiring to all the devices and batteries on your system.
Don't have enough info now to know what is happening with your system because all the setpoints of your Classic or even the model are unknown. Also there is no way to know how old the firmware is in it and that has had many revisions for the better over the years. You should be able to see what the firmware is if you get the Local Status app going with it.
Larry
I believe it's a Classic Lite. I generated a drawing of my setup and attached it, let me know what other detail it needs, or whether something is hooked up wrong. I will go get a picture of the DIP switches and the manual page on them and see if that's right.
Why do you have a diversion load to resistors ?
Also not sure if you really have the batteries wired up in series like that or if it is the simplicity for your drawing. If they are like that there is a better way to wire the batteries to ensure they get a more equal distribution of charge.
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html
Best practices is you should have a breaker on the positive input if you don't.
And if you have more than two PV there should be a combiner box with breakers.
Larry
Here's a picture of the DIP switches and the label on what they're supposed to mean. I need to dig into the manual to learn more. I didn't realize there was an ethernet connection/web server on this box that I could get into, I'll have to look at that and see what the settings are for this unit. I don't actually know where the ethernet connection is, I guess it must be under the front cover?
My drawing probably isn't clear, but all the reds on the batteries are connected together and so are the blacks, so all my batteries are in parallel.
Right now I'm running my solar inputs through a terminal strip linking them all together, but I'm in the process of ordering DC breakers for each input, I just haven't gotten them from the local guy yet, I guess that will do the same thing as a combiner?
I was told to get a diversion load to prevent over-charging, but I'm in no particular danger of that, since my batteries never really get fully charged as I have it set up, now, which one of the issues I'm trying to fix. Should I disconnect that as a troubleshooting step? I have more panels I can hook up after I figure out the current problem.
Hi Silver..,
It looks like Dip 5 & 6 are ON, this is Fld3, Pg 58 in the 2056 version of the manual here ...
Regarding the PV breakers that Larry mentioned, just make sure that they are DC-Rated. It is convenient to use a MidNite Combiner box, that accepts the MNEPV (DIN Rail style) breakers ... here is a bit of info:
would suggest using the MidNite MNEPV DC breaker, with a maximum current rating equal to the PV manufacturer's "Maximum Fuse Rating", "Maximum Reverse Current", or similar words. Here is a Link for this breaker from a reputable supplier:
https://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-mnepv-15-amps-circuit-breaker.html
Here is a MidNite Combiner for six PV strings, maximum from the same supplier:
https://www.solar-electric.com/mnpv6.html
Agree also, that you do NOT need the MS 45 Diversion Controller, as, the Classic will do a great job in keeping your batteries fully-charged, without overcharging, when you have the charge parameters correctly set.
The Ethernet port is under the cover, and is a standard RJ-45 (or whaterever the number is).
FWIW, Vic
Might try without the Morningstar diversion with 2 big resistors connected into the circuit...back to bascics...
I suspect the diversion is hitting hard and the classic sees it and re sweeps, What resistance value are those resistors?
This morning I disconnected the diversion load, there appears to be no change, though I will continue to monitor. I didn't get a chance to use the app to check the config yet, but will check and report back. Do my DIP switches look basically sane? Is it possibly an old firmware issue? I still wonder what's actually happening, seems like something is sensing the current is too high and resetting itself? In early morning when the charge is around 18Amp, it does it way less frequently.
Okay, here's some screen shots, looks like it's a Classic 250V, does anything look wrong with these settings? It would only allow me four attachments, though I have more if needed.
Do I need to have an earth ground, or will the battery negative alone work?
I don't have the battery temp sensor hooked up, is that a requirement?
Your battery voltage is really low especially since you have them charging.
You should check the voltage on each battery separately - wouldn't hurt to disconnect them to do that when you check with a multimeter.
My guess is one or more of them are not in good shape.
Larry
A battery temp sensor is a good idea if your batteries will get cold - then it will compensate the charge voltage.
A Whizbang and shunt to mount it on are a good thing because you can see exactly how much power is going into your batteries and how much into your loads. Also after you get it set up correctly you can see a good estimate of your state of charge - SOC and a total of how much power you have used every day.
Larry
The battery voltage is low because this was first thing in the a.m. and so the batteries were low still, in fact the inverter shut off on low voltage. These batteries charge up fine and last a long time when fully charged other ways, it's just that this charge controller doesn't seem to be charging them very well, and I still don't know why.
I'm still thinking about re-configuring the Tri-Star as a charge controller and just using that, I've had really good luck with Morningstar on lots of others sites, in fact that's what was used with these batteries before. I just can't get the Midnite unit to behave, I still think I'm missing something.
Was there anything else in my configuration that should be changed?
I would change the Classic's MPPT MODE to Legacy P&O instead of SOLAR mode.
At lower PV input voltages and 12V battery, that might work better, especially if sweeps are interfering with diversion.
Even if diversion is disabled I would give Legacy a try.
boB
I have seen this behavior on classics that had a firmware update and did not get factory restored.
What I would do is set the dip switches to custom, write down your settings and do a factory restore. After that, I would use the local app to program in all your settings and see if that doesn't fix the issue
here are the steps to a factory restore on a Lite:
The way to do the hardware version of the factory restore (VMM)is as follows. There are 4 sets of jumpers directly above the blue terminal block. For the purpose of this we will call the left most jumper JP1 and the right most JP4 (actually labeled ^Boot^)
Step 1- Turn the PV and Battery power off to the Classic and remove the front cover
Step 2- Locate the 2 jumpers JP1 and BOOT (JP4). Take the actual jumpers and keep them in your hand
Step 3- Turn the Battery power on to the classic
Step 4- within 1 minute place jumper JP4 on its two pins and then place jumper JP1 on its two pins. at this point the 3 leds on the top of the circuit board should flash back and forth for about 60 seconds.
Step 5- After the flashing stops power down the classic and remove JP1 and JP4 and stow them back on a single pin like they where.
Step 6- Put the front cover on and power up the Classic Lite. If you have the MNLP set to Custom you will need to go to the local app and reset the battery voltage and setpoints etc.
Okay, so this is the actual unit, and I *think* I just plug in the USB mini cable right next to the Ethernet cable and use the Win7 utility to program the firmware? I downloaded version 2193 for a Classic 250V, so hopefully that's correct. I think I remember seeing a firmware upgrade option on the desktop app though, so to be clear, that's not the one I want, I need the USB cable?
Yes you need to use the usb cable and the update software from where you downloaded the firmware update.
It will guide you through the process. You don't have to update the MNGP since you don't have one.
Larry
Okay, I attempted to set the jumpers, took a picture before and after (attached).
When I powered the unit back up, the three LED's near the top of the PCB lit up for a few seconds right away and then went out while I still had the jumpers removed.
I put them on the jumpers I thought were the right ones within about 15 seconds and waited awhile, but the top LED's never came back on. When I removed the jumpers again and powered the unit back on, the desktop app said nothing had changed, so I think I did something wrong.
Then I hooked up the USB cable (show in attachment), but Windows 10 complained the USB driver isn't signed, so it wouldn't connect the "virtual COM port" over USB. Then I tried my Mac with Win7 VM, but the Mac wouldn't pass the USB connection through to the Win7 VM, so I'm trying to dig up an old Win7 netbook and try it there, will report back what happens.
Anyway, the unit behaves the same way so far. Here are the settings I copied down from the desktop app before starting, let me know if any of these are off:
Setings
Check for Updates Daily
Autodetect Classics checked
Enable Data Logging checked
Unlock Code xxxxx
Basic
Name Classic
MPPT Mode Solar On
Battery Voltage 12V
Absorb 14.4 2:00 Force
Equalize 15.1 2:00 Auto Equalize not checked
Float Volts 13.7 Force
LED Mode Rick Mode
Bully Menu Reboot
Classic Time should probably set
Advanced
Diversion Off
Off Volts 10 On Volts 60
Delay Time 0.1 Hold Time 1
Diversion High Off
Volts 90 Width 1
Limits
Min Volts 13.2 Max volts 15.1
Temp Compensation
Compensate Equalize Voltage unchecked
-5 mv/C/cell Compensation 14.4
Battery status meter
Efficiency 10 Capacity 5Ah Compensation 0%
USB Mode
Log Dump
Tech
MPPT Mode
Sweep Interval 3
Ending Amps 0 Use WBjr for End Amps unchecked
Rebulk Volts 8
Days Between Bulk 0
IP Address 192.168.0.223
Subnet 0.0.0.0 Gateway 0.0.0.0
Web Access disabled
Modbus Port 502
Offsets
Battery Voltage 0
Input Voltage 0
Input 25.3 Batt 12.3
Arc Fault enable unchecked
Ground Fault Enabled checked
LoMax Enable checked
Features
Night Auto Reset Enable unchecked
Insomnia Enable unchecked
Keep Loggin at Night checked
Reset New Ah on 100% unchecked
Follow Me unchecked
Follow Master's Battery sensor unchecked
Modbus Address 10
I would try the jumpers again .
You probably want to get the jumpers on before the LEDs flash the three time because that I think means it is booting up normally.
instructions for hard reset . Here are the instructions from update page/
The way to do the hardware version of the factory restore (VMM)is as follows. There are 4 sets of jumpers directly above the blue terminal block. For the purpose of this we will call the left most jumper JP1 and the right most JP4 (actually labeled ^Boot^)
Step 1- Turn the PV and Battery power off to the Classic and remove the front cover
Step 2- Locate the 2 jumpers JP1 and BOOT (JP4). Take the actual jumpers and keep them in your hand
Step 3- Turn the Battery power on to the classic
Step 4- within 1 minute place jumper JP4 on its two pins and then place jumper JP1 on its two pins. at this point the 3 leds on the top of the circuit board should flash back and forth for about 60 seconds.
Step 5- After the flashing stops power down the classic and remove JP1 and JP4 and stow them back on a single pin like they where.
Step 6- Put the front cover on and power up the Classic Lite. If you have the MNLP set to Custom you will need to go to the local app and reset the battery voltage and setpoints etc.
Are you using the programming utility that came with firmware update ? You have to make an exception for that windows 10 signing error - I think there is something that says use it anyway on that message that comes up .
detailed instructions for firmware update
http://www.midnitesolar.com/firmware/classic/Firmware_install_Windows10_REVB.pdf
Larry
Really, 10% efficency on a 5 Ahr. battery?
I attempted to update the firmware to 2193 by first uploading it on my Win7 box, which looks like it succeeded (maybe) which took several minutes, shown in attached photo. But then after it says it succeeded, the LED's just kept blinking after about 20 minutes, so I'm not sure whether it worked or not. Here's the video of what it looked like after the update:
https://youtu.be/JQ2YVl69Neg
After about 10 more minutes, I cycled power on the unit and it came up normally with the Desktop app, but the background changed from green to yellow. Then after I set the system time, it changed back to green. I still don't know how I can determine what the firmware version is on the unit, how do I do that?
Also, the charge controller does the same exact thing as before with the amperage dropping then rising. I mounted the Morningstar Tri-Star 45 right next to it, wired it up, and my system now runs perfect, so the issue really is with the Classic 250 Lite, though I'm not sure how to really update it still.
You can see what version you have on the Local Status App Status / Info
When you have all the settings you want to use and if you have the switches in the right positions so you can program it via Local Status App ( custom I think ? ) then you can save all your settings with Local Status App on Config - first window at the bottom is Export Registers . To restore them do Import Registers.
You should do another hard reset with the jumpers
Then restore the registers and check them on the Config windows again to make sure they were restored.
Ryan has a lot of videos on the Midnite Youtube page that shows how to do all this stuff - take a look.
Larry
I still think this is a bug of haing an update without a restore, I wouold really focus on that. And as others have said the firmware version is viewable on the local app
I'm planning on hauling it off the mountain and putting it on the workbench where it's easier to work on, will report back. Now that I have the Morningstar working I'll continue to have a fridge while I'm troubleshooting.
I put it on the bench and did the factory reset with the jumpers, here's a video of what's happening when I did that.
https://youtu.be/bykXuWhPkG8
I think the main thing is getting jumper 4 on really quickly after you plug power in, then do the second jumper after that.
Once this process was done, I re-imported the registers I had saved to a text file before I started. Now it looks like:
Classic 250V (rev 4)
IP: 192.168.0.223:502
Firmware:
- Classic Rev: 2193
- Network Rev: 2122
Is there anything I missed before I trudge back up the hill and re-install this thing?
The only thing I can suggest is if it still does this try another factory restore and do not import the registers just set it up with the local app, I am slightly worried about the registers being corrupt
Keep us posted
I hooked it back up, and now all the front panel LED's blink every second or two like:
https://youtu.be/lbadxt7qbAw
I thought I read somewhere that symptom might suggest I used the wrong code. I went back to the firmware download section, and it seems the 2193 version is the only download I see for several models, one of them is the Classic Lite 250, is it possible I have the wrong code still?
It seems to be charging, I only saw it drop to zero Amps a couple times in around 5 minutes, though it's only charging at around 10-20 amps in early morning light.
I'll re-attempt the whole process later and see if it helps.
I started the whole process over and it does the exact same thing, although now the 3 LED's don't blink, just the single amber one, which I *think* it what it's supposed to be doing? I didn't re-import the registers, just set them to what seem to be sane settings. The desktop app doesn't show any warnings, and still using firmware 2193.
Is there anything else I can do? I hooked the Morningstar back up and it works fine still. At this point I'm thinking about selling this this, fishing boat anchor? Not sure, but I really need my fridge to run all the time to stop ruining food and not to kill my batteries totally.
This not knowing what is going on is why we discontinued this version of the Classics. A real MNGP can still be added but that would cost extra unfortunately unless someone here has an idea.
So sorry you are having to go through all this. I know it's a pain. :(
But if it is charging at all, then I don't think that the wrong code was installed. The same version, eg. 2193 is used for all 3 Classic voltages.
Kyle and others will know more about the blinking LED pattern and its meanings.
Thanks for the explanation. Good to know that the code is the right version.
It is charging, it just still does what the original video shows, so the daily lower charge is not charging my batteries during the day like the Morningstar is, even though it's a PWM unit.
I'm open to ideas, should I send it in for repair or?
The problem is the days are getting shorter and cloudier, so I really need something with higher capacity than the 45A Morningstar during peak charge times to top off the batteries to avoid killing them slowly.
Yes, it can be repaired... Just trying to see first if there might be a good reason to do what it's doing.
No separate charger in the system, right ?
There are no other chargers (except currently where I have the Tri-Star as charge controller so I can have lights in the cabin, even if the fridge doesn't work half the time). I have updated the diagram (attached) to show the current configuration, in case that helps?
Someone thought it may have something to do with two of the batteries being older and MPPT trying hard to find it's way to determine an optimal charge rate?
The shop I bought the unit from suggested tearing the top strip off the top of the batteries, exposing the glass mat and adding some water, is that a sane thing to look at? OTOH, why would the morningstar work just fine if that was the case? I have a bunch of these batteries at other solar sites with Morningstars on them that have been bulletproof for years, so I'm not sure the batteries are suspect?
The Blinking LED's
Sorry about that, We had an issue where old MNLP displays like yours didnt work with new code, If you email me I will fix you right up
Ryan@midnitesolar.com
How old are those AGM batteries ? Are all the batteries the same age ? There is a date code on them somewhere .
I think you should load test them - individually would be best and watch the voltage on them when the load is on.
I have seen smaller AGM that had good voltage but that would take a dive soon as a load was on them.
No I think it would be a mess and waste of time to try and rip the top off agm and put water in it. If they vented from getting over charged in their life they are no good. If they are older than 5 years old and haven't lived a happy life they are probably no good. AGM can fail before that too. Do a load test and watch the voltage - the will be the only way to know for sure.
Larry
Two of them are a few years old and work great (the 125Ah), the other two (the 135Ah) are new. I have manually charged them in the past and they last all night just fine, so while they aren't all new, seemingly they will handle the load of my fridge (180 Watt Energy Saver model) and flat panel TV sometimes in the evening, and a couple LED lights.
As a workaround until I get this thing sorted, I added one more 265W solar panel to the side of the shed facing roughly west, since if I add it to the main array facing south it overpowers the TS-45 (hits around 50A) during peak sun, but it's nice to have a little more late afternoon charge to help out once the sun has wandered toward the horizon.
I was wondering, since the TS-45 is PWM, which I read is something like 20-30% less efficient, whether the difference of adding a new panel would be scrubbed off anyway by the TS-45's inefficiencies so the output wouldn't overdrive things, but I was wrong. The sun came out from behind a cloud and the unit started making evil sounds, so I unplugged the extra power, and it's back to working fine again still.
Thanks to Ryan, I'm planning boxing it up and sending it up for them to take a look at it. I also asked if there's a way to "upgrade it to a non-lite" if that's a possibility without altering the earth's orbit or something equally difficult.
Quote from: silverstr8p on September 10, 2019, 10:15:15 AM
Thanks to Ryan, I'm planning boxing it up and sending it up for them to take a look at it. I also asked if there's a way to "upgrade it to a non-lite" if that's a possibility without altering the earth's orbit or something equally difficult.
That's funny ! :)
Glad you're sending it back to get fixed or whatever. Hopefully we fix things up for you good.
If another controller works in its place then I think the Classic really does have a problem then.
boB