The Voltage differs based on which page I have displayed. Is this normal? From the pics below, System Status Voltage 54.0, MPPT Status page Voltage 54.0, but HB pages shows 54.4 volts. I am able to read the individual Lithium Pytes V5 voltages via a PC cable direct and they agree with the System Status/MPPT Status number. BUT, it appears the 'Target' battery voltages set under Setup/Battery Config are triggered by the HB higher voltage, so I've had to set trigger voltages .3V higher to get the values I need. Is this normal?
System Setup: HB battery cables are 26" long and run directly from HB Epanel to the Rosie battery connections in the Rosie Epanel. Rosie battery cables are 24" long to the battery Combiner terminals. Battery cables are 40" long. I am using the WBjr inside the Rosie for the system SOC. Also have the Battery Sense Circuit wired from the the Rosie to the battery combiner.
Additional Observation: Maybe not related, but the SOC reading starts out accurate, but varies by 12-15% after the system has been in use. Starts out accurate at 100% and initial draw down is good within 2-3%. However, after the HB partially charges via solar, more drawdown, etc., the System SOC reads 12-15% higher, sometimes more, than actual battery SOC (per PC direct battery readings) after a day or two. I have 5 Pytes 100 amp batteries in the system and they stay w/in 2% SOC of each other per the direct readings.
Appreciate any comments :)
The system voltage is the voltage the system runs on. The system sets priority levels:
1- BMS Closed Loop
2- Remote Battery Sense
3- Rosie
4- MPPT
So if the Rosie in the system sees the voltage a little different than the Hbay the system voltage will be the Rosie voltage but when you go to MPPT specific pages you will see Hbays voltage
As for SOC drifting is it drifting lower over time or higher?
Quote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:26:46 PMAs for SOC drifting is it drifting lower over time or higher?
The System SOC is drifting higher over time versus the actual SOC reported by the batteries themselves. From 100% charged, as battery power is used, the system SOC stays w/in about 2% of actual battery SOC. That % difference becomes greater over time with the System/Rosie SOC being HIGHER than the actual battery.
Quote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:24:37 PMThe system voltage is the voltage the system runs on. The system sets priority levels:
1- BMS Closed Loop
2- Remote Battery Sense
3- Rosie
4- MPPT
So if the Rosie in the system sees the voltage a little different than the Hbay the system voltage will be the Rosie voltage but when you go to MPPT specific pages you will see Hbays voltage
Is there a menu/page that reads the Battery Sense voltage specifically?
I'll have to monitor the system again as it approaches absorb from bulk charge. The last two times, it has always switched aprox .3 volts before the programmed voltage. It wasn't until I discovered the HB voltage reading higher that I assumed it was using THAT voltage as the switch point, even though the system voltage was lower. Yesterday while in Float, the Set point was 55.8, system & MPPT & battery voltage was 55.5 ... low. So, I raised the Set point to 56.1 and the system voltage immediately raised to 55.8 as well as the battery voltage measured from the PC direct. Hmmm
Quote from: aaapilot on February 17, 2024, 04:55:58 PMQuote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:26:46 PMAs for SOC drifting is it drifting lower over time or higher?
The System SOC is drifting higher over time versus the actual SOC reported by the batteries themselves. From 100% charged, as battery power is used, the system SOC stays w/in about 2% of actual battery SOC. That % difference becomes greater over time with the System/Rosie SOC being HIGHER than the actual battery.
Ok so a upward drift shows we have the efficiency to high in the setup. Try lowering it say 1% at a time and you should be able to dial it in
Excellent, thank you :). I'll make the adjustment and post the results to the forum.
Dave
Update: 91% or 92% efficiency seems to be a good number to align the WBjr SOC% with my Pytes V5 30kw battery system :). Thank you Ryan!
Quote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:24:37 PMThe system voltage is the voltage the system runs on. The system sets priority levels:
1- BMS Closed Loop
2- Remote Battery Sense
3- Rosie
4- MPPT
So if the Rosie in the system sees the voltage a little different than the Hbay the system voltage will be the Rosie voltage but when you go to MPPT specific pages you will see Hbays voltage
Which one of these Voltages are supposed to TRIGGER the change from Bulk to Absorb and Absorb to Float? On my HB, the MPPT voltage appears to be the TRIGGER for these changes when I charge with solar, even thougth it reads .3 to .4 volts higher than the system/WBjr voltage from the Rosie. As a result, if I want the Absorb voltage to be 56.2, I have to set the Absorb voltage in Battery settings to 56.5! IF I charge the battery using AC in, then the TRIGGER is the System Voltage. I am using the latest BETA firmwares in the MNGP2, HB, and Rosie. Is this a problem w/my system or a software glitch? Thanks
Quote from: aaapilot on February 25, 2024, 10:40:09 AMQuote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:24:37 PMThe system voltage is the voltage the system runs on. The system sets priority levels:
1- BMS Closed Loop
2- Remote Battery Sense
3- Rosie
4- MPPT
So if the Rosie in the system sees the voltage a little different than the Hbay the system voltage will be the Rosie voltage but when you go to MPPT specific pages you will see Hbays voltage
Which one of these Voltages are supposed to TRIGGER the change from Bulk to Absorb and Absorb to Float? On my HB, the MPPT voltage appears to be the TRIGGER for these changes when I charge with solar, even thougth it reads .3 to .4 volts higher than the system/WBjr voltage from the Rosie. As a result, if I want the Absorb voltage to be 56.2, I have to set the Absorb voltage in Battery settings to 56.5! IF I charge the battery using AC in, then the TRIGGER is the System Voltage. I am using the latest BETA firmwares in the MNGP2, HB, and Rosie. Is this a problem w/my system or a software glitch? Thanks
For Bulk/Absorb/Bulk/Absorb transitions, this depends on battery voltage. Remote battery sense V (RBS) informs the individual chargers of this voltage if installed and working correctly. Otherwise the individual charger (Rosie or MPPT) will use its own voltage sense. I think an error occurs if the RBS and individual charger's readings are too far off from each other which would indicate a voltage reading issue or bad connection somewhere. At least, I think that then, the individual chargers will use their own internal voltage sense.
Absorb to Float transition would will also be triggered by remote battery V sense for the set Absorb time unless ending amps or BMS triggers Float transition first.
Now, you might only have solar PV and if it is a cloudy day and low batteries, and the MPPT could go back and forth between Bulk and Absorb and the Absorb timer would never expire and float might not be triggered that day.
We will give the BMS the chance to end the charge and go to Float if that's what it wants us to do. As I know of now, we are still adding more manufacturer's battery BMS's to the arsenal for that function but that is how it is supposed to work.
Quote from: boB on February 25, 2024, 01:04:03 PMQuote from: aaapilot on February 25, 2024, 10:40:09 AMQuote from: FNG on February 17, 2024, 04:24:37 PMThe system voltage is the voltage the system runs on. The system sets priority levels:
1- BMS Closed Loop
2- Remote Battery Sense
3- Rosie
4- MPPT
So if the Rosie in the system sees the voltage a little different than the Hbay the system voltage will be the Rosie voltage but when you go to MPPT specific pages you will see Hbays voltage
Which one of these Voltages are supposed to TRIGGER the change from Bulk to Absorb and Absorb to Float? On my HB, the MPPT voltage appears to be the TRIGGER for these changes when I charge with solar, even thougth it reads .3 to .4 volts higher than the system/WBjr voltage from the Rosie. As a result, if I want the Absorb voltage to be 56.2, I have to set the Absorb voltage in Battery settings to 56.5! IF I charge the battery using AC in, then the TRIGGER is the System Voltage. I am using the latest BETA firmwares in the MNGP2, HB, and Rosie. Is this a problem w/my system or a software glitch? Thanks
For Bulk/Absorb/Bulk/Absorb transitions, this depends on battery voltage. Remote battery sense V (RBS) informs the individual chargers of this voltage if installed and working correctly. Otherwise the individual charger (Rosie or MPPT) will use its own voltage sense. I think an error occurs if the RBS and individual charger's readings are too far off from each other which would indicate a voltage reading issue or bad connection somewhere. At least, I think that then, the individual chargers will use their own internal voltage sense.
Absorb to Float transition would will also be triggered by remote battery V sense for the set Absorb time unless ending amps or BMS triggers Float transition first.
Now, you might only have solar PV and if it is a cloudy day and low batteries, and the MPPT could go back and forth between Bulk and Absorb and the Absorb timer would never expire and float might not be triggered that day.
We will give the BMS the chance to end the charge and go to Float if that's what it wants us to do. As I know of now, we are still adding more manufacturer's battery BMS's to the arsenal for that function but that is how it is supposed to work.
Thanks boB, I think it's making a bit more sense now. I was under the impression that a single WBjr and RBS in the 'system' would be shared by all. As FNG pointed out, that is not the case for SOC (thru the WBjr) on some screens. I have both WBjr and RBS installed in Rosie, so the RBS corrects the Rosie voltage and is used as the 'system' voltage. When I charge from the utility via AC IN, it's using the Rosie voltage, corrected if needed by the RBS, which becomes the system voltage and the Battery Config numbers work as programmed. But, when I charge from Solar, the HB uses MPPT voltage ( which in my case runs .3 to .4 volts higher than system voltage) which is NOT corrected by the RBS in Rosie, so the Trigger voltage gives me a system voltage .3/.4 volts lower then what is set in the Battery Config menu. That's a mouthfull! So .... Guess I'm going to connect another RBS from the HB to test out the theory.
The Holy Grail is certainly BMS from the Lithium batts talking directly to the system. My Pytes V5's have done a good job of taking what I give them and going into an 'Idle' state when they've had enough. In my case , I've never seen a cell voltage above 3.521. Regardless of the Absorb timer, they stop excepting amps and will equalize to 3.505 while the absorb or float timers are running. I'm fine tuning the Absorb time/End Amps (which seems to be 2A) to get them to 3.48-3.50, then leave them in float for a while to equalize.
Quote from: aaapilot on February 25, 2024, 05:45:10 PMThanks boB, I think it's making a bit more sense now. I was under the impression that a single WBjr and RBS in the 'system' would be shared by all. As FNG pointed out, that is not the case for SOC (thru the WBjr) on some screens. I have both WBjr and RBS installed in Rosie, so the RBS corrects the Rosie voltage and is used as the 'system' voltage. When I charge from the utility via AC IN, it's using the Rosie voltage, corrected if needed by the RBS, which becomes the system voltage and the Battery Config numbers work as programmed. But, when I charge from Solar, the HB uses MPPT voltage ( which in my case runs .3 to .4 volts higher than system voltage) which is NOT corrected by the RBS in Rosie, so the Trigger voltage gives me a system voltage .3/.4 volts lower then what is set in the Battery Config menu. That's a mouthfull! So .... Guess I'm going to connect another RBS from the HB to test out the theory.
The Holy Grail is certainly BMS from the Lithium batts talking directly to the system. My Pytes V5's have done a good job of taking what I give them and going into an 'Idle' state when they've had enough. In my case , I've never seen a cell voltage above 3.521. Regardless of the Absorb timer, they stop excepting amps and will equalize to 3.505 while the absorb or float timers are running. I'm fine tuning the Absorb time/End Amps (which seems to be 2A) to get them to 3.48-3.50, then leave them in float for a while to equalize.
The RBS and WBJr is shared to all units on the canbus network... Now, maybe not to the MPPT if it is "Un-Linked"
The RBS controls and calibrates what the unit thinks is the battery voltage. They should all agree within a volt and 1/2 or so or something is wrong. That part is just a sanity check.
The only reason an MPPT solar controller will want to be trying to charge slightly higher than the system set Absorb and Float voltage is so that you use the renewable sources first. But for the MPPT to do that, it has to be Un-Linked. (unlinked from the rest of the system voltage feedback at least))
In other words.... If your Rosie were connected to grid, charging, and the Hawkes Bay thinks that the battery voltage is anything less than what the Rosie thinks the battery voltage is, then the HB would not be helping out at all and you'd be wasting valuable utility electricity.
That last example SHOULD not need to be Un-Linked with the RBS telling everybody what the battery voltage is, BUT in my opinion, I think the MPPT should be able to add another 0.1 V to its setting because it would help insure it is doing its part in holding the battery at Absorb or Float.
Then again, if the MPPT is capable, maybe the Rosie should just shut off its charger (silent mode ?) when that is the case so no grid use happens.
You usually only need the grid when it is cloudy/rainy or at night.
There may be properties of this system already in place to help this scenario and I just don't know it.
boB
QuoteThe RBS and WBJr is shared to all units on the canbus network... Now, maybe not to the MPPT if it is "Un-Linked"
The RBS controls and calibrates what the unit thinks is the battery voltage. They should all agree within a volt and 1/2 or so or something is wrong. That part is just a sanity check.
The only reason an MPPT solar controller will want to be trying to charge slightly higher than the system set Absorb and Float voltage is so that you use the renewable sources first. But for the MPPT to do that, it has to be Un-Linked. (unlinked from the rest of the system voltage feedback at least))
In other words.... If your Rosie were connected to grid, charging, and the Hawkes Bay thinks that the battery voltage is anything less than what the Rosie thinks the battery voltage is, then the HB would not be helping out at all and you'd be wasting valuable utility electricity.
That last example SHOULD not need to be Un-Linked with the RBS telling everybody what the battery voltage is, BUT in my opinion, I think the MPPT should be able to add another 0.1 V to its setting because it would help insure it is doing its part in holding the battery at Absorb or Float.
Then again, if the MPPT is capable, maybe the Rosie should just shut off its charger (silent mode ?) when that is the case so no grid use happens.
You usually only need the grid when it is cloudy/rainy or at night.
There may be properties of this system already in place to help this scenario and I just don't know it.
boB
Well, the HB is Linked. And the HB isn't trying to Charge at a higher voltage, it's using the MPPT voltage, which is .3V higher than the system voltage, as the trigger to change from bulk to absorb to float. So, Battery Config Absorb setting is 56.2. When MPPT voltage hits 56.2, charging switches to absorb, BUT system//battery voltage is only 55.9, and it stays there. Question: How can I test the RBS to ensure it's working properly? I tried turning off the 1 amp CB, but the system voltage does not change. My battery cables from Rosie to battery bank are just 24" long , 4/0, so I really don't expect much difference anyways.
Quote from: aaapilot on February 25, 2024, 09:33:30 PMWell, the HB is Linked. And the HB isn't trying to Charge at a higher voltage, it's using the MPPT voltage, which is .3V higher than the system voltage, as the trigger to change from bulk to absorb to float. So, Battery Config Absorb setting is 56.2. When MPPT voltage hits 56.2, charging switches to absorb, BUT system//battery voltage is only 55.9, and it stays there. Question: How can I test the RBS to ensure it's working properly? I tried turning off the 1 amp CB, but the system voltage does not change. My battery cables from Rosie to battery bank are just 24" long , 4/0, so I really don't expect much difference anyways.
To me, the "system" voltage is 48V. I am not sure what is meant by MPPT voltage in this context.
There is a small range of Absorb voltage, below which it goes back to BULK again and that is just a few tenths of a volt, usually. Maybe -0.3V ? Is that what you mean by 55.9 to 56.2 volts ?
You can sort of check the RBS operation by hooking up an accurate volt meter like a Fluke across the battery terminals. You have short and large battery cable so you may not see a difference between what the actual battery terminal voltage and what is displayed on the MNGP2.
If the MNGP2 displayed battery voltage matches the Flukemeter, especially if the voltage across the HB battery terminals are different, then you can assume that the RBS is doing its job.
If you disconnect the positive RBS wire and something changes within a few seconds, the RBS is almost certainly working.
boB
QuoteTo me, the "system" voltage is 48V. I am not sure what is meant by MPPT voltage in this context.
boB
I should be more clear when I say MPPT voltage. Presss the MPPT key on the MNGP2. There are 2 screens, MPPT status & Hawkes Bay. The status screen displays the system/battery voltage, as do all other pages. The Hawks Bay screen displays a HIGHER voltage, .3-.4 volts above the system/battery voltage. This HIGHER voltage from this page is what triggers the change from Bulk to Absorb to Float when I'm charging with Solar.
Interesting. I'm not sure why the HB is displaying that much higher of a voltage, especially if it is linked and the RBS is in place.
That's OK. I can't know it all :)
Thank you for the info.
boB
Quote from: boB on February 26, 2024, 01:33:24 PMInteresting. I'm not sure why the HB is displaying that much higher of a voltage, especially if it is linked and the RBS is in place.
That's OK. I can't know it all :)
Thank you for the info.
boB
Hey, that's ok boB! Really appreciate your insight and help. I'll figure it out eventually, just trying to give feedback as the engineers work out bugs/improvements in the software. ;D
Quote from: aaapilot on February 26, 2024, 11:09:03 AMQuoteTo me, the "system" voltage is 48V. I am not sure what is meant by MPPT voltage in this context.
boB
I should be more clear when I say MPPT voltage. Presss the MPPT key on the MNGP2. There are 2 screens, MPPT status & Hawkes Bay. The status screen displays the system/battery voltage, as do all other pages. The Hawks Bay screen displays a HIGHER voltage, .3-.4 volts above the system/battery voltage. This HIGHER voltage from this page is what triggers the change from Bulk to Absorb to Float when I'm charging with Solar.
Hm thats not how it should work, everything in the system is supposed to operate on the system voltage. I will chat with Mario today