Does anyone have an opinion or experience with which would be a better choice for a grid tie inverter?
Xantrex XW-6048
OR
Pair of Outback GVFX-3648
I'm interested in long term reliability, value, and performance/features.
Thanks,
Edward
Edward
I am not a big fan of the XW for a few reasons. I have used a few and they are loud physically but they worked well. It is hard to beat the quality of the Outback gear although the XW has 2 ac inputs.
I second Ryan's noise comments about the XWs. They sound like a VERY LOUD pair of hair clippers starting up. The XWs also seem to have issue with grid voltage and battery response time. And while most of the ones I've experienced have been in Texas (which is not a mild weather state), they seem to be more sensitive to ambient temperature.
As for the OutBacks, they require secondary cooling to make rated power, only have the one AC input (I can automatically control whether that input is "Grid" or "Generator", but that's because I'm really good 8) ), and make half a 120/240 split phase circuit, rather than the entire 120/240 system.
For all their negatives, I'd roll with a twin stack of 3648's, because the positives are phat.
Thanks for the feedback, Ryan and Julie.
Would just an ordinary box fan be adequate for additional cooling?
Edward
I'd like to bring this topic up again.
Julie mentioned secondary cooling to make their fully rated output.
Anyone know what sort of secondary cooling arrangement works well with these?
I just bought 1 GVFX-3648 (used) to experiment with, and so I am curious how much secondary cooling they need for full rated output.
Edward
have a gvfx 3648 and put it through it paces and you will be very happy with it and does it not have a fan in it all ready ? cheers Mike
Thanks for the comments Mike. Yes, it should have a fan already, but Julie made a comment about "secondary cooling" and I wasn't sure what she meant.
Julie's comment about secondary cooling needs some explanation. The way inverter power rating is done is with the inverter sitting flat on a bench. This allows full 360 degree cooling. ETL witnesses the testing and when maximum temperature is achieved and stabilized, the power is measured. It takes many hours for a test like this. When the inverters are mounted on a Flexware 500 panel, the airflow is severely restricted. This reduces the continuous power output. When a MidNite E-Panel is used instead of the Flexware, there is no restriction of cooling. Full power is achieved. The same goes for the Magnum circuit breaker boxes. They restrict cooling much more than the E-Panel does. We have been doing circuit breaker boxes much longer than the other guys and always consider the installed cooling issues.
That said, the only time you will experience cooling issues is when charging from a generator. Inverting never gets the inverter all that hot. Batteries just don't last that long and loads are not that constant. Charging from a generator is real though.
Thanks for the explanation Robin.
Edward
My XW6048 is mounted on a wall, and has a cooling fan. inlet at bottom, outlet at top. It's big load is a 1,000 water pump, and the fan comes on to provide some cooling. I don't have other big loads that run for long times yet, shop tools, welder, and such, but I've had no troubles with it. Looking to get a balancing transformer, as I don't know if I'll be able to do a good job in the house between dishwasher, wash mach, dryer, and such.... Need to keep the 2 120V legs somewhat happy.
To add to a bit of the comments on mounting --
First, the ePanel is phat. However, an ePanel is useless for larger systems, and that brings up ... cooling them when mounted on the FLEXware backing plate. For that, you need an 80mm computer 'case' fan to scavenge the air out from between the inverters. You can make a bracket yourself out of thin sheet metal -- just remember that there is some serious DC current not all that far away.
I would not agree with the Epanel being useless I have seen some real large Outback systems done with the Epanel lights and Not A Gutters. I will dig up some pics as soon as I get a few minutes.
Check out Page 3 http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Nottagutter_information.pdf (http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Nottagutter_information.pdf) Plenty of room for cooling here. This system is actually very competitively priced compared to the FM stuff.
Yeah, the notagutter makes for better cooling of the inverters.
Doesn't look too bad either. More wiring room too.
boB
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See, that's not what I think of as "better". My solution to "cooling" is forced air.
But that, as they say, is what makes a horse race. It's also why my daily driver is supercharged -- more of that forced air ;)
Quote from: tallgirl on April 04, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
See, that's not what I think of as "better". My solution to "cooling" is forced air.
But that, as they say, is what makes a horse race. It's also why my daily driver is supercharged -- more of that forced air ;)
Yes. Forced air is good ! It works even better if the air can get to the heat sinks.
A lot of people don't like fans though and they can brake. You'd think that some
people take their inverters and charge controllers to bed with them.
I personally don't mind fans at all. Even take my own fan to the gym but I need some space
between me and the other people. I'm surprised at how many people have an insane
hatred for fans ! EEEWWwwwwww..... Get that forced air away from me ! @*&#^$*&#^$8
Eeeewwwww !!!
I could not take it very long in Texas without a fan either. Too hot ! But hot and fans are very CooL !
boB
That's a vicious rumor that I take my inverters and charge controllers to bed with me. It was probably started by my batteries that are upset because they hog the covers, so I kicked them out.
Texas isn't Washington. I'm hoping to have an XRW2G in with with the rest of my equipment, keeping a close tab on how hot things get. What I do know is that 110F for =ambient= temperature isn't unrealistic. At those temps, natural convection over the components isn't going to be enough.
Quote from: tallgirl on April 05, 2011, 01:35:41 PM
That's a vicious rumor that I take my inverters and charge controllers to bed with me. It was probably started by my batteries that are upset because they hog the covers, so I kicked them out.
Texas isn't Washington. I'm hoping to have an XRW2G in with with the rest of my equipment, keeping a close tab on how hot things get. What I do know is that 110F for =ambient= temperature isn't unrealistic. At those temps, natural convection over the components isn't going to be enough.
I'm glad that SOMeBODY understands about air flow and its many benefits !
So qrazy..
Oh..
Later
I think the XW. First because it is more versatile and second because I am have more experience with them. Both are good products but the single XW will be easier in the long run.....
Regards. :)
Queen.
Ryan,
I love that photo of the 8 FX inverters, with everything neatly guttered and piped... and then there's that little orange wire on the left ... what's up with that ;) ?
Thanks,
Brad
I did manage to do a prototype run of 80mm case fan brackets for dealing with stacked FX inverters. I've been offering them for free (the prototypes, the real ones will cost), with just the cost of actual postage. When it was still hot as Hades, and I was running the inverters in "Sell" mode, they reduced the temperature by about 10F, based on an APRS World temperature sensor nestled up between them.
I was going to have the sensor control the fan (send "AUX ON" commands to the master GVFX), but I went with battery voltage -- if Vbatt is greater than SellRE, the fan comes on. When Vbatt falls below some number in the middle of the night, the fan goes off.
As regards the comment that inverting doesn't give the inverters a good working over -- where I live there are people who seem to think that 3600 watts of PV per inverter is a good =start=. I've seen twin stacked GVFXen with 4500 watts of PV attached. Youch!