Solar Users-Take a look at this Wall Street Journal Article

[Nashville]

Here's are some quotes from the WSJ 

"Utilities Facing a "Mortal Threat" From Solar"

Traditional transmission and distribution utilities will have to deal with distributed solar power, and it won't be a pretty fight, according to David Crane, president and chief executive of NRG Energy NRG -0.27%, a large independent power producer.

Utilities "do realize that distributed solar is a mortal threat to their business," said Mr. Crane, speaking at The Wall Street Journal's ECO:nomics conference on Thursday in Santa Barbara, Calif.

"They can't cut costs, so they will try to distribute costs over fewer and fewer customers." This, he said, will increase costs for the customers, and will drive more of them toward distributed solar.

" Mr. Crane, or NRG, added that distributed solar, which allows power generation throughout the electrical grid, rather than in central power plants, is a national security issue.
As I read this over again, maybe this guy meant that central plants were more of a threat. The quote lacks clear context. ...Donno.....

[TomW]

It used to be "for the children" to rationalize stupid stuff like this but now it is "National Security". A few more upgrades here and they can take back their equipment and we will pull the plug permanently.

This kind of bull is one reason we are not grid interactive and did NOT take any government incentives building our system. It is grid connected but not grid interactive. Now the meter and other "fees" exceed the value of the energy we buy. Except in the Summer when we use the AC.

Other than that all I can say is ***SIGH**. More penalties for doing the right thing. If it is true and gains traction.

Now I will Sit on my hands so I don't get into a rant..

Tom

[Westbranch]

A load of cow twaddle

....the ONLY segment of the industry that would be impacted is the power generating sector, IFF (if and only if) the transmitters and distributors would pay a fair rate for the PV power put into the Grid.
Then the Transmitters and distributors would just charge for moving the power around the grid to non-PV houses

[Nashville]

I fully expect powerful Washington Utility lobbyists to attempt to get laws passed that make new solar installations more difficult for the average Joe. I expect more thinly veiled attempts to midlead the public "in the interest of Public Safety".

This is a very serious game involving big $$$$. You remember what happened to the electric car......

[Vern Faulkner]

Makes me wanna go outside and hug a beaver.

[dgd]

I fully expect powerful Washington Utility lobbyists to attempt to get laws passed that make new solar installations more difficult for the average Joe.

The 'Follow me' principle comes into play here. if Washington passes laws that extract $ from the average Joe under the guise of
Utility protection or national security then the rest of the RE world pays as well. As other countries and govts see it as another 'revenue stream' justified by the excuse of its necessity because the USA does it.
But isnt that the way of the world? , as soon as something becomes popular it gets taxed   

dgd

[Westbranch]

Makes me wanna go outside and hug a beaver.

Not in Canada right now, they are under the ice!  Still winter up here despite the rumours of global warming...

[cpm]

We -as a culture- need to refocus on guerrilla solar again, like we were doing a few years back.

In my state/locale, it's already being regulated to the point that 'average joe' is just flat out of luck. The paper work and permitting requirements alone are prohibitive. Extend and embrace, then cocoon them in red tape, all the while getting kudos for being 'solar friendly'. Win-Win.

[Halfcrazy]

I am with Tom here. This is why we are offgrid. The utility literally is buried underground to the shop and dead ended. Never used it 

I to could rant for days on the guberment or the entertainment industry that calls them selves the media but will stop typing and set on my hands as well.

On second though I think I will go target practice instead 

Ryan

[cpm]

It used to be "for the children" to rationalize stupid stuff like this but now it is "National Security". A few more upgrades here and they can take back their equipment and we will pull the plug permanently.

This kind of bull is one reason we are not grid interactive and did NOT take any government incentives building our system. It is grid connected but not grid interactive. Now the meter and other "fees" exceed the value of the energy we buy. Except in the Summer when we use the AC.

Other than that all I can say is ***SIGH**. More penalties for doing the right thing. If it is true and gains traction.

Now I will Sit on my hands so I don't get into a rant..

Tom

Here,

Watch my artful and subtle dance that takes us neatly around the rant, ,


I too (we too?) are interested in a similar approach.

I have no interest whatsoever in any government incentives, none. Not even a tax rebate, nothing.

i have a shed full of PV panels, some midnite and outback stuff, stuff I've had for years built by companies that no longer exist. Is there anything as volatile as being a PV manufacturer? Those folks can't keep their doors open for shite, , ,

Anyway, moving along.

I *must* be on the grid. Themz the rulez

I'm okay with being on the grid, it's very handy for working on the homestead. And -of course- one has to be careful with what fights one wants to have. Dealing with anything that involves cares with official plates parked in the driveway is stuff I'd rather just not do as far as possible.

Our homestead is poorly situated for solar, but we get a few hours if the sun ever actually bothers to come out, which seems seldom enough these days. Since the regulatory hurdles that have been put up in this 'solar friendly' state require, get this, full architectural drawings, signed off by a structural engineer with a state stamp to
put an array on the roof, most folks opt for pole or ground mount. Which of course,
would impact garden space, a sacrifice not in the cards. I'm VERY tempted at this point to just bang up an a-frame out of lumber, and hang half-dozen to 10 or so panels (properly grounded of course) as if I were 'experimenting', hanging my gtvx, classic on portable panels, using SO cable for everything including the battery box and backfeeding my breaker panel via an outdoor 20 amp outlet (gfci) at this point, and not telling anyone a danged thing about it. Only real heartburn I have is backfeeding via a GFI.

If you are grid tied, but not grid interactive, how are you doing this?

I am also not interested in 'selling', not at all, not under the regulatory burdens required to do so, all the social good aspects aside. But I am very interested in taking full responsibility for the energy our home uses.

Thoughts?

[Westbranch]

If you are to go to all the trouble of getting the panels up, you may need to add an 'independent' wiring system to your house and to be able to use your Off Grid power. Back feeding can be/is dangerous. Safety first!

[TomW]

If you are grid tied, but not grid interactive, how are you doing this?

I am also not interested in 'selling', not at all, not under the regulatory burdens required to do so, all the social good aspects aside. But I am very interested in taking full responsibility for the energy our home uses.

Thoughts?

Simple.

You either use transfer switches or dedicated circuits for the RE power. I always get worried when folks start talking suicide cords and backfeeding.

I use one of these on 6 house circuits for switching circuits between grid and RE as needed, it is for generators but works great for an inverter which is a sort of battery driven generator even UL listed.   

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-31406CRK-6-Circuit-Generators/dp/B000BQN4T2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364088668&sr=8-2&keywords=transfer+switch

I also  have my 2 freezers, fridge and a couple other circuits wired through transfer switches at the inverter that run from RE 24/7.

I used to just move the power plugs from grid outlets to RE outlets but in an effort to simplify things I got transfer switches installed.

Tom

[cpm]

If you are to go to all the trouble of getting the panels up, you may need to add an 'independent' wiring system to your house and to be able to use your Off Grid power. Back feeding can be/is dangerous. Safety first!

How is it different to 'backfeed' via an existing circuit vs via a dedicated breaker?

Same same.

Curious what you are saying here.

Aside from using an outdoor utility circuit, which -by code- must be through a CGCI, tying the inverter in through a same load rated breaker positioned correctly is electrically identical.

Unless I'm missing some subtle aspect.

Or,

I can just cave, accept that the pro-regulation folks are right, and haul all my RE stuff to the dump and scrap it, though most of it is brand new and cost me a pile of money over the years. Since I can't afford the permits, , it's no good to me at all.

[Nashville]

If you are grid tied, but not grid interactive, how are you doing this?

I am also not interested in 'selling', not at all, not under the regulatory burdens required to do so, all the social good aspects aside. But I am very interested in taking full responsibility for the energy our home uses.

Thoughts?

Simple.

You either use transfer switches or dedicated circuits for the RE power. I always get worried when folks start talking suicide cords and backfeeding.

I use one of these on 6 house circuits for switching circuits between grid and RE as needed, it is for generators but works great for an inverter which is a sort of battery driven generator even UL listed.   

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-31406CRK-6-Circuit-Generators/dp/B000BQN4T2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364088668&sr=8-2&keywords=transfer+switch

I also  have my 2 freezers, fridge and a couple other circuits wired through transfer switches at the inverter that run from RE 24/7.

I used to just move the power plugs from grid outlets to RE outlets but in an effort to simplify things I got transfer switches installed.

Tom

Hi Tom,
I thought I read somewhere that this unit has a serious electrical flaw. I just don't remember what it was. I will try to find what I read. Yeah, redneck backfeeding could kill a lineman if wire incorrectly. Amazing the setups that I have seen, like backfeeding the clothes drier outlet.

[cpm]

If you are grid tied, but not grid interactive, how are you doing this?

I am also not interested in 'selling', not at all, not under the regulatory burdens required to do so, all the social good aspects aside. But I am very interested in taking full responsibility for the energy our home uses.

Thoughts?

Simple.

You either use transfer switches or dedicated circuits for the RE power. I always get worried when folks start talking suicide cords and backfeeding.

I use one of these on 6 house circuits for switching circuits between grid and RE as needed, it is for generators but works great for an inverter which is a sort of battery driven generator even UL listed.   

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-31406CRK-6-Circuit-Generators/dp/B000BQN4T2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364088668&sr=8-2&keywords=transfer+switch

I also  have my 2 freezers, fridge and a couple other circuits wired through transfer switches at the inverter that run from RE 24/7.

I used to just move the power plugs from grid outlets to RE outlets but in an effort to simplify things I got transfer switches installed.

Tom

Neat approach, and if I had split phase 240 available via RE, I'd do it. But I can only make single leg 120.

Thanx for the input.

I'm not being clear,

I have an old system that I had on my other house, in a solar-unfriendly state, where the permitting process was to go to the firehouse, ask them what they wanted to see for disconnects, hook it all up, call the inspector, and he'd show up with a fellow from the utility, they'd check over the wiring, get the paperwork on the inverter, turn it all on, then open the external disconnect, make sure the inverter shut down, close the disconnect, make sure the inverter took 600 secs to come back online, then tag it.

that system is an old 1200w PVPowered inverter and an array of older BP/Solarex panels.

The 'new' system is 2.4k of sharps, (10x240s+2 spares) an outback GTFX, a classic, ancillary 'stuff' which has never been used. The OB of course, has it's own xfer switch, and would have to have it's own load center. there is no way to 'just plug it in' that could in any sense at all  be anything other than radically unconscionable, without opening the mains first.

This house has no external disconnect. Installing one means installing a new drop, which means a *lot* of structural modifications. I've already been over this with the county inspector. The drop comes in over a driveway, and I'd have to raise it to 16'
Which means a 3" rigid conduit drop, which would have to be guyed, which would mean rebuilding the back porch, which would mean (and so on and so on) Bottom line, about $20K worth of changes just to change the utility entrance to accommodate an
external disconnect and new meter housing. *If* I could leave the drop at the existing 12' height, I could do all this for about $2K, and I'd have done it already. 

But it's all kinda pointless. Right now the sun is shining down on a spot I could place
an imaginary a-frame and be harvesting power. but it's not going to happen. I'm a part-time bicycle mechanic/bicycle delivery guy and after I pay all my self-employment "fines" I rarely break minimum wage. I own this place outright, my old (quarter million miles) prius outright, my bicycles outright, I heat with wood, I do all my own work, and I have no money.

All this pv stuff I own, some of the local RE folks occasionally borrow some panels from me to take to exhibits and the like because they know I have'em. Can't use'em, but I have'em.

And no, none of the local RE folks are willing to work with me to pave the road to get it done correctly. Including ones I've done work for. They know that I'll never be able to scare up the cash to get all the prerequisite engineering and permitting done.

If only it were as easy to get an RE permit as it is to get a concealed carry permit. As in 'shall issue'. I've even chatted a bit with some folks on other boards with some folks who have helped draft the NEC requirements. As I'm sure some of you already know, not all these folks are interested at all in seeing a distributed grid, and if they can kill the concept via regulation, all the better as far as they are concerned.

We need a sea change.

Okay, again, thanks kindly for the input,

No more rants.