Classic with Lithium Ion?

[Westbranch]

Q?.  Did you remove all the styrofoam in the carton, there are some holes in the bottom of one of the pieces that hold those screens...I made the mistake of saying they weren't there too...  felt a fool...

[offgridQLD]

Basically the issue was is that when the system was first installed a few years ago, the polarity of the panel outputs was mixed up, resulting in blue for positive and red for negative. Very confusing when someone else (in this case me) comes along and tries to change the controller over!

Ok I was under the impression you had some one supply and install the classic. A multimeter is your friend when doing this kind of work.

Yikes $1700 does sound high. Not sure what the NZ $ exchange rate is at the moment but they were around $1000 AU a few month back when the AU $ was about parity with the US.

Kurt, have you looked into this option, the small 5Kw/10Kwh unit that can be 'stacked'? Very interesting...

http://redflow.com/

I think you will pay a premium for a package like that. Often they are nice solutions for company's that want a turnkey solution that complyes with all the regulations they need to Get the job done and cover there back sides.

Personally I just want to strip things back to just the raw cells with the minimum of additions to keep things in check. At the moment value wise. The cells coming out of china from company's like Calb/Winston (china aviation lithium) Are priced well and are proving to be very reliable in the diy EV world so I have some confidence in them as a House bank as the demands are much less than than a EV traction pack needs to support. I can obtain the cells locally from a EV parts suppler with warranty. Same place can also supply a simple and reliable BMS along with cell level cell top balancing boards.

A local long time member and of a renewable forum I post on who has been living off grid for many years on lead acid has switched to the above package  more than 12 months ago and is over the moon with the results. He went for 16, 400Ah cells but 2p for 24v 800Ah.

I like the large cell formats in the 400AH + range. I might even consider 700AH cells. I don't need the capacity for the house but it would give me some reserve to do a full charge of my electric car (over night) one issue of having a EV and living off grid is the odd time you want to charge the car overnight the lead acid doesn't like you pulling 10 - 12kw from it at 2200w for 5hrs+.  So it's daytime charging with large PV array to keep the stress off the lead acid and the classic 150 resupply most of the load directly when the lead is in float. With lithium sucking 30% or 50% of the capacity overnight at a high C rate isn't a issue.

Kurt

[Westbranch]

At the cost of PV , too bad you couldn't get a second EV, cheap, so you could have a dedicated Array(s) and drive one while the other charges...

[offgridQLD]

I have 8.2kw of pv and lots of sun so no real need for a dedicated ev array. A 2nd ev is 25 - 50k but upping the capacity of the house bank by 15 - 20kwh is only 6 - 8k and it can come in handy for other times.

Its not that often I need to charge at night usually one full charge is enough for a few days driving or I can just top up a little in the morning to recover the km travel day before. Though a few times I have found myself wanting to go on a 100km+ trip first thing in the morning and my pack was say only 1/2 full , that's where lithium house bank and the ability to cycle it deeper over night (now and then) is a big advantage.


Kurt

[dgd]

I think the Classic 250 was $1,700 over here! It was a while ago so I can't recall exactly but it wasn't a cheap unit, that's for sure! And yeah, our supplier doesn't really deal with them so advised against them anyway.

That pricing does not surprise me as there would be a few people clipping the ticket before you get the Classic but that price would include the 15% gst and no doubt all sorts of courier fees as it gets shipper between distributor, dealers and end suppliers.
Some shopping around could get the Classic 250 for about $950 plus gst.
Still not good pricing as you can get a Classic 250 imported for about NZ$800 (inc shipping) and often it will come through customs tax free 
dgd

[offgridQLD]

Speaking of capacity My lead acid cells are rated as follows

C120 to 1.80Vpc - 1460
C100 to 1.85Vpc - 1330
C20 to 1.85Vpc - 950
C10 to 1.80Vpc - 840
C5 to 1.70Vpc - 760

Trouble with a big bank that hasn't seen more than 10% DOD in is life is it can mask its health. One day I really should put a constant load on the bank and do a capacity test on them to see how they are holding up after 6 years. I'm sure they are only a shadow of there former self

I would be over the moon if I could even get 1/2 of the c10 (50kwh) capacity from my bank at c10 loads.

[dgd]

I think the reason most batteries designed for renewable energy applications are quoted at the C100 rate is because that charge/discharge profile most closely resembles the actual use these batteries get in most installations.
So I would base your calculations on the 1330 AH capacity.
Also since you say that your bank gets not more than 10% DOD then I suspect you rarely get the bank voltage to that 1.85v per cell.
Also after six years at this relatively light (normal RE) usage I doubt very much your cells are 'just a shadow of their former selves'. They are probably in quite good condition and if you keep them reasonably well charged and serviced on a regular basis I could easily see 10,12,15 years or  longer service life.
I always found battery capacity calculations vs battery age  a very inexact science and there is no doubt that they lose some capacity over time BUT if they do not get sulphated, dry out, abused, frozen, overheated or configured in parallel strings then barring catastrophic failure they seem to last a long time.
Especially the higher capacity cell types. Thats why I only ever bought 1000+ AH cells as I have seen way too many r220s and L16s or their equivalents dead in 2 to 6 years.
I also never considered AGM or sealed types, again short life as they invariably dry out compared to flooded types
Just IMHO
dgd

[offgridQLD]

630W is the c100 load so yes true it would be a good (average).

I think I will do a limited capacity test on them this weekend. They will be on float when I get there on Friday. I might try turning off the PV and let them charge my EV 2200w load that will suck 15kwh or so out of them that's about 30% of there capacity at a c10 load. Would be interesting to see how they perform.

Kurt.

[dgd]

Kurt,
It will be interesting to see how they cope with this load.
I remember reading elsewhere on the forum where flooded lead acid battery banks probably benefit from an occasional 20 to 30% depth discharge. I do this every couple of months and I always notice the resting voltage after a day's PV input via Classic leaves the bank at a slightly higher resting voltage. The same happens after a day or so of sunless dull weather.
With my 'getting old' bank I was advised by the manufacturer to increase the float and absorb voltages from 26.4 to 27.4v and 28.6 to 29v and do a 3 monthly EQ at 31v
dgd

[Cniemand]

Kurt, Do you have a website of your set up and the EV??

- Cloud

[offgridQLD]

Kurt, Do you have a website of your set up and the EV??

- Cloud

Sorry Claud,
                    Most of the info and discussion around my offgrid system and EV is a jumble of threads scattered across local EV and off grid forums including this forum. I really should look into putting together some kind of webpage or blog so I can compile the basic rundown in one location.

I have managed to stay away from most of the social media. Any suggestions on a simple free place to host this kind of webpage or blog?  It might be a interesting little project for me (sure better than watching repeats on TV )

Kurt

[zoneblue]

So from NZ how do you get hold of these Calb cells? When i looked at AA solar lithium last year the price made my eyes water.

[RossW]

So from NZ how do you get hold of these Calb cells? When i looked at AA solar lithium last year the price made my eyes water.

CALB is China Aviation lithium Batteries IIRC. I was going to get mine from them too, but they were absolutely pathetic about communications - faulty addresses on contact page, skype addresses that didn't reply for weeks.

HiPower had better prices and similar range, also replied promptly to requests for information.

I initially tried to contact CALB over 3 weeks before I tried to contact HiPower. CALB finally responded 4 hours after I placed my order with HiPower.

[Cniemand]

Kurt,

You could just use a simple blogger website. Such as Blogspot. My own page is thestayathomegardener.blogspot.com

I use it to show a bit of gardening stuff and lately me building a tiny house with solar etc.

I'm not sure where you would get the Calbs in NZ. I purchased mine from a reseller. EVTV.me. It seemed a safer deal than having things shipped directly and wiring money. (As I've been watching these guys convert classic cars to electric drive for years now.)

- Cloud

PS. Kurt. I am mainly interested in your Solar powered (through separate pv, not as in they are on the car roof!) EV.

[keppelk]

Great to see more people moving to Lithium batteries. The more I see about their performance and lifetime, the more impressed I am!

I'm NZ based too. End of last year I ordered 16x 400Ah Sinopoly LiFePO4 batteries directly from Sinopoly in Hong Kong/China. All went well and they were delivered 6 weeks after I paid for them. According to the provided QC sheets the batteries range in capacity from ~480-495Ah. I can't measure capacity (yet) but all the other measurements (weight, cell voltage etc) are spot on.

I had similar communication issues with CALB which cost them a sale. Sinopoly has been much more helpful and has been a pleasure to deal with. Very impressed with the quality of everything Sinopoly - the boxes the cells came in, solid copper cell straps and high grade stainless bolts.

I purchased 2x Midnite Classic 200 (1x Classic and 1x Classic Lite) from the USA. Total landed cost was about $1800. For current NZ distributor pricing see http://indepower.co.nz/docs/price_list.pdf