WB jr. Q&A

[offgridQLD]

I only have the one inverter and nothing using any of the inputs on any of the two classics.

So with the above in mind is there any advantage in getting a WBJR for each classic?

Edit: Here is my thinking with two classics in Master/slave - follow me arangment.  The master clasic having the WBJR connected. Lets say I have end amps set to 20A on the master classic. So I am in absorb mode and the master classics charging at 25A and the WBJR tells the master classic there is a 5A battery load so the master classic takes this into account triggers end amps based on 20A trigger point. Ok great the WBJR had done its job informing the master classic of the 5A load.

So the question is  and this might be more of a (follow me) question though it has implications to WBJR.....

Say the master classic knows its putting in 25A charge and it knows there is the 5A load but how dose it know how many amps the slave classic is pumping out. Say (new numbers for this example) both master and slave classic are charging at 15A each for a total of 30A now that's above the 20A  setting for end amp trigger point but dose the master classic only see its own 15A and think great that's below 20A and trigger end amps when in fact the battery was still calling for 30A to hold absorb voltage.

Regarding the usefulness  of the WBJR, from my point of view it's biggest advantage now is that the classic knows what your loads are when switching to float - end amps. So once installed I can stop arguing with my wife, telling her to stop rinsing dishes for 2 min and running the 600w pressure pump and give the classic a chance to trigger float- end amps



Kurt

[Tons001]

Thanks Vic. As always ... everyone on here is a wealth of information.

I was just curious because based on the Trimetric 2025a, I am always left with a deficit cumulative AH for the day even if I make it to float on the Classic via ending amps. When I hit float the last couple times, I reset the Trimetric total AH to zero but I still end up with a shortage everyday that gets further away from positive daily. I have the Trimetric as dialed in as a can. The only remaining parameter that I have not changed is the default 94% efficiency. I raised my absorb voltage to 14.4 which is the highest recommended by Concorde. I tried vmax with the minimum set to 2 hours and the max set to 5 but for some reason the Classic still transitions to float after 2 hours even though EA has not been met. It completely ignored the 5 hours max.

I was just kind of hoping the WB jr would help solve my issue. I know battery monitors are not accurate ... a fact I reminded of numerous times when reading peoples responses but I can't wrap my head around why I always end up short. The classic rarely asks for more than 60% of the arrays potential.

Just in case anyone is curious. P1=14.2 P2=3 (which should actually be 1.5 based on info I could find) P3=300. I have calculated so that the voltage matches between the Trimetric and the Classic.

My batteries seem to hold a charge well but the voltage rises quickly enough that I transition from bulk to absorb to soon in my opinion. Could my batteries be the issue? FYI ... agms so SOG is not an option.

Thanks ... Marc

[Resthome]

I only have the one inverter and nothing using any of the inputs on any of the two classics.

So with the above in mind is there any advantage in getting a WBJR for each classic?

Regarding the usefulness  of the WBJR, from my point of view it's biggest advantage now is that the classic knows what your loads are when switching to float - end amps. So once installed I can stop arguing with my wife, telling her to stop rinsing dishes for 2 min and running the 600w pressure pump and give the classic a chance to trigger float- end amps



Kurt

If you install the WB Jr on a shunt connected to your battery negative it will go to Float based on the current at that external shunt that knows what the Net Amps (Net Amps=Amps from Classic - Loads) are into the batteries. You will still have to determine what the End Amps should be set at for you installation. The current measurement with the WB Jr appear to be very accurate in my installation. The current beta firmware does not know the AHr rating of your batteries

[offgridQLD]

Ok,

     Thanks kind of obvious now that I look at it all again. So when using the WBJR the classics internal shunt reading for charge output amps are ignored and only the WBJR shunt reading are used and both classics will be covered as they are going through the one shunt.

Also if I purchase a 500A deltec shunt is there any reason why I cant have the WBJR mounted to it and then a second set of sensing wires to the same shunt because my Selectronics inverter  also has a two pin shunt input for monitoring a external shunt and has some great logging software that came with it  . So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.

Kurt

[Resthome]

Ok,

     Thanks kind of abiuse now that I look at it all again. So when using the WBJR the classics internal shunt reading for charge output amps are ignored and only the WBJR shunt reading are used and both classics will be covered as they are going through the one shunt.

Also if I purchase a 500A deltec shunt is there any reason why I cant have the WBJR mounted to it and then a second set of sensing wires to the same shunt because my Selectronics inverter  also has a two pin shunt input for monitoring a external shunt . So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.

Kurt

Kurt, you can attach the second set of sense wires with no problems. The spacers and longer set of screws are provided in the box. I have my Link 10 sense wires attached to my WB Jr. on the Deltec shunt. And both the Classic and the Link 10 show exactly the same Net Amps. As long as your inverter wants to see the shunt in the main battery negative there should be no problems.

[TomW]

So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.

Kurt

Kurt

With mine they even included a couple of extra standoff ferrules along with the longer screws to allow you to add these secondary sense wires neatly to the WB Jr shunt.

So, I guess the answer is "yes".

Tom

[boB]

So the question is  and this might be more of a (follow me) question though it has implications to WBJR.....

Say the master classic knows its putting in 25A charge and it knows there is the 5A load but how dose it know how many amps the slave classic is pumping out. Say (new numbers for this example) both master and slave classic are charging at 15A each for a total of 30A now that's above the 20A  setting for end amp trigger point but dose the master classic only see its own 15A and think great that's below 20A and trigger end amps when in fact the battery was still calling for 30A to hold absorb voltage.

The one Classic that has the WB Jr. connected is the only one that needs to have Ending Amps set.

The new software has a selection to chooses either the Classic's internal shunt OR the external WB Jr.
shunt for its Ending Amps sensor.

So, with Follow-Me being used for the two Classics, and their Absorb time set for a fairly long time,
the Whizbang Junior should be able to tell that one Classic to go to Float and the other (slave) Classic
will follow it to Float also.

That is the way it is supposed to work.

Soon, the information over the Follow-Me cables will include the current from the one WB Jr. so
even the Classic without the WB Jr. will also know that main battery current... But
it should also not be necessary if the slave follows the master into Float.   I suppose that a  gotchya that
could happen might be that the master Classic (the Classic with the WB Jr. connected) could be seeing
too low of a battery voltage and not know that the "system" is really in Absorb if the slave Classic
is the one seeing the Absorb voltage.

Transferring the WB Jr. over the Follow-Me connection will fix that last possible problem but for now,
just make sure that both Classics are reading close as possible near the Absorb voltage.  Use the Tweaks
adjustment for that if necessary.

boB

[offgridQLD]

Great thanks  for all that.  Just ordered my 500A shunt and WBJR  

If anyone in Au is looking for one. DC solutions in Australia has stock ready as of yesterday. Apparently there were some small changes that needed to be made to the PCB?  It's all resolved now and good to go.


Kurt.

[boB]

Thanks Vic. As always ... everyone on here is a wealth of information.

I was just curious because based on the Trimetric 2025a, I am always left with a deficit cumulative AH for the day even if I make it to float on the Classic via ending amps. When I hit float the last couple times, I reset the Trimetric total AH to zero but I still end up with a shortage everyday that gets further away from positive daily. I have the Trimetric as dialed in as a can. The only remaining parameter that I have not changed is the default 94% efficiency. I raised my absorb voltage to 14.4 which is the highest recommended by Concorde. I tried vmax with the minimum set to 2 hours and the max set to 5 but for some reason the Classic still transitions to float after 2 hours even though EA has not been met. It completely ignored the 5 hours max.

I was just kind of hoping the WB jr would help solve my issue. I know battery monitors are not accurate ... a fact I reminded of numerous times when reading peoples responses but I can't wrap my head around why I always end up short. The classic rarely asks for more than 60% of the arrays potential.

Just in case anyone is curious. P1=14.2 P2=3 (which should actually be 1.5 based on info I could find) P3=300. I have calculated so that the voltage matches between the Trimetric and the Classic.

My batteries seem to hold a charge well but the voltage rises quickly enough that I transition from bulk to absorb to soon in my opinion. Could my batteries be the issue? FYI ... agms so SOG is not an option.

Thanks ... Marc

Marc, I would think that you should NOT be left with a deficit in Amp-Hours from one battery Full to another Full...

That doesn't quite make sense at 94% efficiency which sounds close enough.

Sounds like you have older firmware in your Classic if you are still using Minimum Absorb time.
That is the reason that your Absorb time is only 2 hours...  As you said a bit later in your posting, your battery
voltage gets to Absorb fairly quickly.  This is probably OK.  It may be that you are not using much of your battery
capacity ?  In fact, how much is your discharge Amp-Hours ?

With the older system using Minimum and Maximum Absorb Time (and not the newer VariMax or VMX), if the transition
from Bulk to Absorb is quick, then the timer will not count up from your 2 hour setting towards the 5 hour maximum.
It will then just count down to 0 minutes from that 2 hours and then go to Float.


The intention of this Min-Max Absorb time and the newer VariMax version of that is for when your batteries
were not discharged very much and does not need to do the full maximum Absorb time to decrease wear
and tear on your batteries from all the Absorb charging.

My suggestion, if your battery bank is of any substantial size, is to increase the Absorb time some, like, to 3 Hours or so
and see if you get a positive amp-hours on your Trimetric after that 3 hours.  Also, you have increased your Absorb
voltage set point which can also help to increase your amp-hours but as you say, you are getting close to the maximum
voltage specs of those batteries.  That is wise not to go too high but you are probably OK.

Another possible reason you may be getting to Absorb quickly is because you have a high charging current.
This is not usually a problem.  It is usually the other way around;  Not having enough charging capability.

Either way, the Whizbang Junior and the proper setting of Ending Amps is the best way to trigger a
transition from Absorb to Float.  With this, then you have not need for a minimum Absorb time setting.
In fact, with the actual battery amps known to the Classic and the proper Ending Amps set, there is
NO need for ANY charge time at all.

Problem is that if the Ending Amps are adjusted too tightly and as the batteries age, the End Amps setting
may go up some and then it wouldn't go to Float until the sun went down.  This is a good reason for
a maximum Absorb time of a few hours.   So, just make sure that End Amps are set somewhat
above the minimum battery amps at the Absorb voltage and all should be good.

With periodic "learning" of the Ending Amps, which is, I believe, possible to do, this overcharging would
be a moot point.   I hope we get to that too.   Sort of like "wind learn" which will still happen.
The question is, when ?

Also, battery State Of Charge information on the Classic using the WB Jr. should come sooner rather than later.

boB

[Tons001]

Sounds like you have older firmware in your Classic if you are still using Minimum Absorb time.
That is the reason that your Absorb time is only 2 hours...  As you said a bit later in your posting, your battery
voltage gets to Absorb fairly quickly.  This is probably OK.  It may be that you are not using much of your battery
capacity ?  In fact, how much is your discharge Amp-Hours ?

Between the time the batteries went to float and 7:00am this morning, the Trimetric recorded a total of -64ah out of battery bank.

With the older system using Minimum and Maximum Absorb Time (and not the newer VariMax or VMX), if the transition
from Bulk to Absorb is quick, then the timer will not count up from your 2 hour setting towards the 5 hour maximum.
It will then just count down to 0 minutes from that 2 hours and then go to Float.

The intention of this Min-Max Absorb time and the newer VariMax version of that is for when your batteries
were not discharged very much and does not need to do the full maximum Absorb time to decrease wear
and tear on your batteries from all the Absorb charging.

I am running the latest firmware ... 1608/1609. I tried using vmax last week with a minimum 2 hour absorb and a max of 5 hours. Everything worked perfect until it finally counted down to 0 on the minimum 2 hours and it exited to float. Not sure why the 5 hour max was ignored when the EA was nowhere close to met. Thoughts?

My suggestion, if your battery bank is of any substantial size,

Two Concorde PVX-3050T for a total capacity of 305ah.

Problem is that if the Ending Amps are adjusted too tightly and as the batteries age, the End Amps setting
may go up some and then it wouldn't go to Float until the sun went down.

I have an email into Concorde but based on advice from Coach Dad ... EA for those batteries is .05% of capacity or 1.5 ending amps. I have no way of hitting so I made EA 1% or 3amps plus 2.5amps of constant loads which has my Classic EA at 5.5amps. So yes ... It takes 4+ hours in absorb to reach the 5.5amp EA on the Classic and transition to float which is basically sundown.

The batteries were unused but 19 months old based on a serial number check with Concorde. I had the guy put a voltmeter on them before I bought them and they were 6.7v each which I verified when they came in 2 weeks later. I am starting to wonder if my batteries are shot?

In case anyone if wondering, here my current classic settings. Absorb=14.4v / Float=13.4v / Max Absorb 4:30hrs / T-Comp -4.0mv / Ending Amps 5.5. Currently the Classic is wired to 2 strings of four Sopray SR-90s giving me approximately a VOC of 82v @ 10.12amps which the string calculator indicated a possible 50 amp output from the Classic. The Concorde Sunxtenders indicate they would like a 0.2C charge in bulk so I am slightly under the 60 amp requirement. Regardless, the Classic hasn't sent more than 34 amps to the batteries except once when there was 3 days of no sun and the battery voltage dropped to 11.8v. (11.8v while under a 2.5 amp load)

I am open to suggestions about what I am doing wrong.

[ClassicCrazy]

I think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.

The batteries were unused but 19 months old based on a serial number check with Concorde. I had the guy put a voltmeter on them before I bought them and they were 6.7v each which I verified when they came in 2 weeks later. I am starting to wonder if my batteries are shot?

In case anyone if wondering, here my current classic settings. Absorb=14.4v / Float=13.4v / Max Absorb 4:30hrs / T-Comp -4.0mv / Ending Amps 5.5. Currently the Classic is wired to 2 strings of four Sopray SR-90s giving me approximately a VOC of 82v @ 10.12amps which the string calculator indicated a possible 50 amp output from the Classic. The Concorde Sunxtenders indicate they would like a 0.2C charge in bulk so I am slightly under the 60 amp requirement. Regardless, the Classic hasn't sent more than 34 amps to the batteries except once when there was 3 days of no sun and the battery voltage dropped to 11.8v. (11.8v while under a 2.5 amp load)

I am open to suggestions about what I am doing wrong.

[Tons001]

I think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.

I would agree 100% which is I am stuck between a rock and hard place since these are AGMs rendering measuring specific gravity impossible.

[ClassicCrazy]

Oh I missed that those were AGM batteries. I have some experience with smaller sized ones used in fire alarm panels and emergency lighting.  They can show correct voltage but you put a load on them and they will take a dive fast. And often even after they have only floated for a couple years and then testing with a special meter that is supposed to show the amp hour capacity they are never close to what they are rated for, often 50% or less.   But I am talking about the cheaper small 7 to 33 AH types. 

In your situation I think the best way to find out what is going on with them would be to put a decent load on them without any solar going on and monitor the voltage. You will at least find out their capacity that way.  And if one of them is bad you  will probably find out. 

I think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.

I would agree 100% which is I am stuck between a rock and hard place since these AGMs rendering measuring specific gravity impossible.

[Tons001]

Thanks I will give that a go once I have the inverter in place. As of now, I only have DC loads that are quite small. If I had it all to do over again, I would just get FLA batteries so everything could be easily measured. I opted for the agm because I have everything setup in my basement. I still have them in a box with a vent to outside with a fan that kicks on when the battery voltage goes above 14.0v. I wonder if said box is good enough for FLA.

Still waiting to hear back about why VariMax didn't function like I thought it would.

As a total plus ... my WB jr. arrived today and was installed with ease. Thanks Midnite Solar!

[Westbranch]

you will probably have to dig a bit but most manufacturers state  a specified load for the test.

My old Absolyte was .2 C or 20 % of its capacity rating, you just have to know which capacity rating to use.  C8, C10, 0r for PV (usually) C20 hr