E-Panel/Magnum4024 wiring question

[yellowgate]

As I posted in the introduction, I've had these components sitting around for 2 (or mybe 3?) years. The E-Panel install guide shows to wire my source (grid and or generator) into AC Hot In 1 and AC Hot In 2. However my generator is only capable of 120V and I won't upgrade for another year. I know I can jumper from Hot 1 to Hot 2, but should this be done in the E-Panel, or in the ME-4024, as shown in it's manual. My thinking is do it in the E-Panel as that still gives me power to both legs if I had to bypass the inverter for some reason. After jumpering Hot1 and Hot2 in the panel, everything else should wire up as shown, I believe. Any problems forseen with this?

Also, my "kit" included (2)-63 Amp DC breakers and (4) 15 Amp DC breakers. I'm thinking these were for the MNPV-6, but all of them? My array will be composed of (16) 62W PV panels, broken into either 2 or 4 strings at 24V. Short run from combiner to E-Panel, maybe 15 feet max. How best to utilize these? Use the 63's in the combiner and then the four 15's for possible DC house circuits?  I guess what I'm asking is if YOU had supplied these components how would you have envisioned using them?

[Halfcrazy]

Is this a 120 volt inverter or a 120/240 volt? i am slightly confused why there would be 2 ac ins in an epanel unless it is a 4024ae 120/240 inverter in which case you would not want to jumper ac1 to ac2 magic smoke will emit from the Magnum

[keithwhare]

Yellowgate,

You don't mention what charge controller you have -- that will influence the panel configuration.

I don't find specifications anyplace for a ME-4024 inverter. Could this be an MS-4024? If the invert is the MS-4024, the Magnum Energy documentation carefully documents wiring configurations. This seems a likely place to start.

If you have the correct e-panel for you your inverter, the Midnight Solar e-panel documentation is pretty good.

Keith

[yellowgate]

My mistake, Keith. Yes, it is an MS 4024, a 120/240 inverter. The Magnum installation guides show three configurations: Single IN/Single OUT (120VAC), Single IN/Dual OUT (120VAC), and Dual IN/Dual OUT (120VAC/240VAC).  I am off-grid, so no AC can come into the system other than my generator, which produces only 120VAC. If I were wiring straight from the generator into the inverter (I won't) I could use the Single Hot IN/Dual Hot OUT method by placing a jumper from Hot IN 1 to Hot IN 2, as per the Magnum book. Instead, I'll be wiring the generator into the AC Hot IN of the E-Panel. However, with only one hot wire coming from the generator, won't I lose half house AC circuits should I need to bypass the inverter for some reason?  Would it be so rare to use the bypass feature that I can just install a jumper in the E-panel once I bypass, then remove it before switching the inverter back on. I'm planning on upgrading generators down the road and will get a larger one with 240 output. I won't use 240 in the house, but I like to spread loads over as many circuits as possible.

Ryan, I admit I am not an electrician, but I don't see how the Magnum would know that I had jumpered power from Hot IN 1 to Hot IN 2 inside the E-panel. So long as I have no two-pole breakers installed, that is. Again, bypassing may never need to be done, and then all this is academic. But I do love to learn  (but without destroying my equipment!)

The charge controller is a Outback MX-60. Had I known it would be this long before installing everything I would have waited for the Classic! Anybody want to trade?

[Halfcrazy]

Do not jump between ac1 and ac2 you will destroy the inverter this is a 120/240 inverter

The Magnum 120/240 inverters are unique in that they can take ac into just one leg and still produce 120/240 out if you have a 120 genny just hook it to ac1 in and neutral and be done with it. The only issue with this is if something happens to the inverter and you need to run off the genny in by pass you wont have ac on the ac2 line but if and when the inverter breaks you can deal with it then.

[keithwhare]

We have to be careful to be sure we are talking about the same inverter.

The MS4024 provides 120 volts from the inverter but will pass through 240 volts from input to a subpanel.
The MS4024AE and MS4024PAE provide 240 volts from the inverter in two 120 volt legs.

From your description, it sounds like you have the MS4024. Is this correct? If so, the Magnum documentation does NOT describe a Single IN/Dual OUT for the MS4024 -- the Single IN/Dual Out is for the MS2012-20B and MS2012-15B. (I'm looking at the 2009 documentation, Table 2-3, AC Input/Output Wiring Configurations.)

The next question is do you have the e-panel variation for this inverter?

The Outback MX60 is an MPPT charge controller, so you can (and should) configure the PV panels in strings of higher voltage. From the parts you list, My guess is that the original configuration was four strings of four panels each, connected to the four 15 AMP DC breakers in the MNPV-6.

Use one of the 63 amp breakers between the MNPV-6 and the MX-60. Use the other 63 amp breaker between the MX-60 and the positive buss in the e-panel.

The wiring diagrams in the e-panel documentation are pretty easy to follow. I suggest that you carefully read all of the documentation.

16 62-watt panels is 992 watts, which is not a lot when you have a 4000 watt inverter. What is your battery configuration?

The maximum output from the MX60 is 60 amps. At 28 volts (battery charging voltage), this 1680 watts, which is still not a lot with a 4000 watt inverter.

Keith

[yellowgate]

     Keith, you are well versed in Magnum Energy products. It is the AE model, I didn't know there was a non-AE version.  My manual, on page 22 (photos 19a thru 20a), shows all 3 wiring configurations I've listed. I am limited to 30 Amps per leg, but that shouldn't be a problem. What may eventually happen is I'll supply the house with 30 amps from one side and send the other 30 to the barn. I know, 30 amps for a house don't sound like much, but we've done just fine on less than that for over 5 years.

    And the 4000 watts was probably overkill, but I got a good deal on it. And there's always the option of adding more panels And yes, the E-Panel is for this inverter. The four 15A breakers going in the MNPV-6 was how I had it figured. And the E-panel documentation has to be the greatest ever! Quote: "Quantity 4 M6-1x10mm Pan Head Taptite screw (Looks like a 1/4-20 x 3/8" for you rednecks that don't do metric)"  You gotta love that, and being an erudite redneck, I can swing SAE or Metric.

     The battery was the sweetest part of all: Nashville flooded last spring, pretty bad. Opryland Hotel (sounds hick, huh?) got hit pretty bad. Now, this place has major acreage under roof. They had a lot of electric forklifts underwater, and I was given one of them, It was junked after submersion. The battery looked ok, so I took it out and hauled it to the Trojan dealer who checked, charged, and rechecked it. The electrolyte was clear and within a few points of full charge. It's a Exide 24V, 600 - and something AH battery, 12 indiv. cells in a steel container. 1100-plus pounds. I've been charging in now and then with a tractor charger to keep it topped off.

I do love FREE!

[keithwhare]

Yellowgate,

I installed an MS 4024 (plain, no AE) on an e-panel at a clinic outside of Port au Prince Haiti last spring. So I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I obsessed on the details for a while, so I know the manuals pretty well.

The version of the MS-AE manual I downloaded says:

WARNING: DO NOT connect 120VAC (same phase) to both AC HOT 1 IN and AC HOT 2 IN inputs.
These inputs must be 180° out-of-phase (i.e. 120/240VAC). If you only have a 120VAC
source, you may connect to either the AC HOT 1 IN or AC HOT 2 IN, but NOT to both or damage
may occur.


I understand what you are saying about not using a 240volt breaker, but this warning sure makes it sound like Magnum doesn't want you to connect the same phase to both AC HOT 1 IN and AC HOT 2 IN.

Keith

[Halfcrazy]

I will mention it again DO NOT INSTALL A JUMPER BETWEEN AC IN 1 AND AC IN 2 This would be just like taking the 2 hot wires that come in from your utility and shorting them together

If you have a Magnum AE inverter it will have a split phase 120/240 output just like the utility. The magnum has a transformer in it with 3 taps one being neutral and the other 2 being hots that will be 180 deg out of Phase to each other. If you have a 120 only generator you can hook it between Neutral and AC 1 in or AC 2 in BUT NOT BOTH. This Transformer will take the 120 from the generator and will give you 120/240 out of it. It is Basically the same idea as the Trace and Outback auto transformers.

[Westbranch]

Ryan said:
"This Transformer will take the 120 from the generator and will give you 120/240 out of it. It is Basically the same idea as the Trace and Outback auto transformers."

Assuming what goes in must come out...the amperage per leg would be ~ 1/2 of the supplied Amps?

tia
Eric

[Halfcrazy]

Sort of. If you put say 10 amps in at 120vac then you could in theory run 5 amps on both 120vac legs out or 10 on one and 0 on the other or any combination that totals the same wattage being supplied by the generator. Of course there will be some losses so this was just quick dirty math.

[Westbranch]

right!  Heat , efficiency, line losses, etc kick in.

[yellowgate]

Keith, I Googled up a manual for my inverter, it looks NOTHING like the one Magnum sent with mine. Online ver. is copyright 2007, but the one on my table is 2004! I am not even sure they made the 120/240 AE model in '04. I think it was a new model when I bought it. A whole lot of it (2007) doesn't agree with mine ('04). Glad I posted on here. Had I messed something up perhaps they would at least feel bad about sending the wrong manual 

[keithwhare]

Yellowgate,

I've found online Acrobat (pdf) versions of the documentation for just about everything. The Magnum and MidNight electronic manuals have color pictures and diagrams while the printed copies are black & white. The color helps a lot, particularly with wiring diagrams.

Keith