Encryption OFF

[atop8918]

No, the interval is not a function of handshaking. Handshaking takes less than 100 ms. Incidentally, handshaking was also in place when the interval was set for 1 minute. This was during Beta testing and was never intended as the final design. The interval is directly related to the amount of data our server can handle along with the number of customers we are supporting.

You cannot change the interval anyway, even if you could redirect the data stream, I'm afraid. The call-in time is hard-coded into the Classic firmware.

[atop8918]

The rs232 is 19200 baud. For a 256-byte modbus packet that is ~120ms. If you sample every 1 second you then have over 800ms to process the data. You can also process data offline as well.

[atop8918]

Um... tcp headers and routing info (?)  are never encrypted. Read up on TSL/SSL or IPSEC to get a better idea of how it works.

Incidentally our TCP stack is off-the-shelf. The one port is a design decision, not a technical limitation.

My technical documentation is up-to-date. To make it readable to fellow humans though it would need a drastic overhaul. Management has deemed this an extremely unnecessary task and do not want to release this IP. For academic information, however, here is an overview on how the handshake works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol

With all due respect, if we are so far off your mark why are you here, DGD? You are free to buy anything else on the market or make your own. You can probably still return your MidNite gear for a full refund. I cannot understand why someone who is so frustrated would continue this relationship?

[ClassicCrazy]

I very much appreciate DGD input on here. With out that I would have no understanding of how all this works. To the credit of Midnite they are open in having this forum. 

I have a friend who developed a product and debated if he should make it open source. His decision was to make it open . He found that the community did a lot of engineering on it and made it better which he could incorporate into the next version he put out.  It didn't seem to make his product less popular or change his income.

I want DGD to keep digging into these things and taking the time to explain and comment on them. Until he just explained the data going out to mymidnite I had no idea some of the security issues that could be involved and had no idea that this was encrypted.

Please don't invite him to bug off !

[Halfcrazy]

Oh please don't get us wrong we are not asking anyone to bug off. We are simply trying to maintain a profitable business and develop new products the market needs. The real issue is the Classic is basically limited to what it can do on several fronts. We can design and build the ultimate charge controller but it will cost more. Maybe that's OK? Maybe we will sell thousands of them if we did? We just don't know.

What we are trying to do is work towards a line of Inverters and stuff and also Mario will be working on the Classic 2.0 So we are listening to all the suggestions and keeping an open mind. I still see some form of com box that is the do all be all device and it handles the Modbus server stuff so you can have 4 or 5 devices asking it stuff.

Ryan

[DMJ72]

I very much appreciate DGD input on here. With out that I would have no understanding of how all this works. To the credit of Midnite they are open in having this forum. 

I have a friend who developed a product and debated if he should make it open source. His decision was to make it open . He found that the community did a lot of engineering on it and made it better which he could incorporate into the next version he put out.  It didn't seem to make his product less popular or change his income.

I want DGD to keep digging into these things and taking the time to explain and comment on them. Until he just explained the data going out to mymidnite I had no idea some of the security issues that could be involved and had no idea that this was encrypted.

Please don't invite him to bug off !

Oh please don't get us wrong we are not asking anyone to bug off. We are simply trying to maintain a profitable business and develop new products the market needs. .....

Ryan

Honestly, I never thought I would see the day. I put my Morningstar MPPT60 up for sale yesterday (to buy a Classic). This was my first piece of Solar hardware and is dear to my heart. But .. the Classic with the added value of Mymidnite and the WizBang Jnr have made it redundant. So I am all for enhancing a product with new features..

But there comes a time when its just not technically feasible and/or does not make business sense. Everywhere I go in this country, I see the Xantrex/Schneider XW and wonder WHEN will someone dethrone them from the king of the Inverter hill. I hope it will be Midnite Solar that does this, with the Classic II and a communications ecosystem to tie it all together. IMHO, I think the time is fast approaching when we will no longer see new features in the firmware, but only bug-fixes.

Look on the bright side guys .. We get to explain to the wives why we need new gear! lol 

[TomW]

Look on the bright side guys .. We get to explain to the wives why we need new gear! lol 

DMJ;

Eggs Ackly!

My old excuse of "Honey, I don't have the bass boat, Cessna or muscle car I would love" has worn thin.

The only difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys and all that!

Tom

[dgd]

No, the interval is not a function of handshaking. Handshaking takes less than 100 ms. Incidentally, handshaking was also in place when the interval was set for 1 minute. This was during Beta testing and was never intended as the final design. The interval is directly related to the amount of data our server can handle along with the number of customers we are supporting.

You cannot change the interval anyway, even if you could redirect the data stream, I'm afraid. The call-in time is hard-coded into the Classic firmware.

The evidence is here that you were able to adjust the interval right down to one minute, this happened on one of my Classics. You then readjusted it back to 10 minutes and the firmware was never changed to achieved this changing from 10 minutes to 1minute and back to 10 minutes.
This I realised at the time was the server initiating comms between it and my Classic - a higher level handshaking between devices/programs rather than lower level data link handshaking.

The restrictions on interval and data storage would not exist if the link was made to a local network server rather than over the network to a very remote Mymidnite server.

dgd

[dgd]

Um... tcp headers and routing info (?)  are never encrypted. Read up on TSL/SSL or IPSEC to get a better idea of how it works.

I know how it works.  The point I was making is that only the data is encrypted? Why? Its only Classic ID plus performance data, volts, amps etc. So what function does encrypting that serve. Or is it to somehow protect your version of higher level process handshaking and as such the encryption of user data is just a by product of that?

Incidentally our TCP stack is off-the-shelf. The one port is a design decision, not a technical limitation.

A commercial stack package without Mutex processing? Thats a new one for me as the very nature of a TCP stack would need mutual exclusion locking mechanisms as an integral part of its ability to function.

My technical documentation is up-to-date. To make it readable to fellow humans though it would need a drastic overhaul.

Apologies, I thought the purpose of docs, whether inline with source code or separate files/printed docs, was to convey meaning and explanation of coding decisions to other human beings and not just the original programmer. So this, as such, does not exist?

Management has deemed this an extremely unnecessary task and do not want to release this IP.

For academic information, however, here is an overview on how the handshake works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol

Thanks for that. However, my academic background in computer science has provided me with a very sound understanding of how handshaking works and can be implemented (amongst many other computing issues)

With all due respect, if we are so far off your mark why are you here, DGD? You are free to buy anything else on the market or make your own. You can probably still return your MidNite gear for a full refund. I cannot understand why someone who is so frustrated would continue this relationship?

Wonderful, thanks for that.
I have reiterated several times in this forum that I am very happy with my Midnite equipment and have even stated that it is likely the best there is available. I have not commented personally on anyone and have tried to address the issues rather than comment on the people concerned.

Please remember that this thread originally started with a simple request to make an encrypted data stream available in an unencrypted form to the owners of said data.
In response to this you have said:   can't do this, won't do this, management won't allow it, don't have time, too complicated, can't disclose company secrets, you don't need it, alternatives exist, the coding is complicated, won't understand documentation (or it doesn't exist), can't support user questions if info released, will never change and finally if you are unhappy with these reasons then don't use Midnite
Such a varied set of blockers, well done.

Ok, enough said. Thanks for your efforts and continued good work A (and Midnite)

dgd

[and sincere apologies to anyone who may be upset or offended by my posting - that was never my intention]

[zoneblue]

You guys do realize there are unlimited RS232 connections available?

The rs232 is 19200 baud. For a 256-byte modbus packet that is ~120ms. If you sample every 1 second you then have over 800ms to process the data. You can also process data offline as well.

I would appreciate it if you can please explain how to get the whole register range in less than a second over serial. Ive tried and failed here:
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1751.0

Thing is at faster sample rates, we only need a dozen registers. At slower rates, maybe 30 or 40. But USB mode has to be one or other. I must be missing something.

Do you need to use one of the follow me ports?

[boB]

Do you need to use one of the follow me ports?

Any one (or more) of the 3  RS-232 jacks.

[zoneblue]

Ok thanks bob. Are those ports fairly robust, and its midnite "policy" to allow slash recomend their use for monitoring purposes, or more of a case, be careful and you are on your own if you blow it up?

[dgd]

Ok thanks bob. Are those ports fairly robust, and its midnite "policy" to allow slash recomend their use for monitoring purposes, or more of a case, be careful and you are on your own if you blow it up?

I have never had any issues with these ports, they certainly seem robust and I have not seen one of those random resets associated with rs232 port usage.  There is one I seem to remember also brings 9v power out on one pin.
I tried using follow-me without the loopback connection (3 Classics) so I could use a serial port but follow-me needs all of the ports (unless that has changed in later firmware  )

Have often thought how useful it would be if a PC could run the local app that connected to the Classic via one of those serial ports. 

dgd

[zoneblue]

Thanks. Where did you find documentation for them? Pinouts etc?

[dgd]

Page 79 of Classic manual - see pdf in documentation section