Local app - the mystery deepens

[viola]

Still struggling to find the local app useful through the mist of out-of-date or absent information about it, which is regrettable considering that remotely monitoring our power-source on its mountaintop home was a primary reason we went with Midnite.

Turned logging on - no effect.  Amp hours monitor still running backwards half the time.  Still have a total of 3.23 million amp hours recorded in six days of operation.  Still have to arrange a totally unnecessary trip up the mountain to the device in order to ascertain its registration code so that I can unlock the app and not have to go up the mountain, the fact that I would need this information having been kept secret from me until I actually required it to log-on.

Jesus wept.

And now I find on an obscure, presently inaccessible page in the app something called 'Battery Status Meter' with Values of 10% efficiency, Capacity (Ah) 5, Compensation %/C zero.

??

Is this what the Classic thinks it's presently charging?  A 5 Ah capacity battery?  At 10% efficiency?  No wonder our back-up power supply to the radios had to cut in at 9.00 pm yesterday when the power being delivered by the 325 Ah AGM battery the Classic has been connected to for six days dropped below 11volts, and that after a reasonably sunny spell.

Where is this documented?  What does 'efficiency' even mean in this context?  I'm well aware (having been told) that Midnite expects its customers to intuit their way through these things but it's a closed book to me. 

Alarmingly the local app is also telling me that it has run Equalisation for two hours, despite the fact that Equalisation is set to manual, the button has never been pressed and equalising our AGM battery would invalidate its warranty and wreck it.

I've already spent far more hours trying to get this wretched device to do what it is supposed to than should be necessary and I'm clearly going to have to find yet more.  I've had similar experiences working with technical stuff from China that follows its own impenetrable logic and has a user manual translated out of Mandarin by a schoolboy with three years of English lesson under his belt.


ps  Am presumably going to have to update the firmware as the App shows it to be Rev 1070 and the current one is 18something.  Have reached step 21 in the how to do this manual, and am really glad that we still have the Xantrex C35 the Classic was supposed to replace standing by to run the site again.

[dgd]

Viola,

You really really need to update the firmware. Old firmware does not deal very well with the Local App hence the nonsense values and behaviour.

dgd

[viola]

Hi dgd.

I probably should but having waded through all 19 pages of instructions concerning upgrading the firmware, taken suitable note of all the warnings and assessed for myself all the many opportunities for the whole process to turn into custard (and seen some of the threads thereon in this forum) my inclination is to leave the damn thing alone on the basis that if it's working I'm ahead of the game.

As someone who from my desk can upgrade the firmware on a couple of dozen wi-fi radios many miles away in about 30-seconds I can't recall facing a more heavy-handed, convoluted, disaster-prone process than this one.

With the bout of weather that's coming I'm sorely tempted to utilise the next trip up the mountain to pull out the Classic and revert to the tried and trusted Xantrex to see us throught the winter, rather than faffing about for days more trying to get this precious, pretty bit of kit to do its stuff.

[dgd]

Viola,

I can understand your misgivings about the firmware update process, the Classic is a sophisticated controller and AFAIK the only top end controller offering a user firmware update capability. So its definitely worth persevering with.

If you do decide to pull out your 150Lite and use the Xantrex then I will offer to do the firmware update for you if you want to go to the bother of sending it to me BUT definitely try the update process using a laptop with W7 or W8 at the Classic site first.

dgd

[mike90045]

Viola,

I can understand your misgivings about the firmware update process, the Classic is a sophisticated controller and AFAIK the only top end controller offering a user firmware update capability. So its definitely worth persevering with.....

I have to agree with Viola on this, and disagree about the only top end controller with up-datable wares.  I've done several painless updates on my MS MPPT 60 controller (charger and network sides)  and on my XW Inverter. 
But so far, my laptop does not even see the Classic connected with the USB 

[viola]

Thanks for the offer dgd, but I need to be able to do it myself given that I'll presumably have to be perform future firmware updates in order to cure the bugs introduced by previous ones.  Whoopee.

What still isn't clear to me is whether the upgrade is really necessary - if all it does is make the local app work properly it isn't all that useful given that while pretty, and interesting, knowing what the Classic is doing doesn't exactly helpful if its not doing enough, and I'll know that anyway when the backup gets triggered by low voltage on the main battery - as looks probable again tonight despite a reasonably sunny day.

I'm getting a price on the Whizzbang junior and shunt, but given that the Xantrex and two 120 Ah lead-acids ran the site perfectly satisfactorily without all these bells and whistles I have to wonder if throwing more money at it isn't a waste of the Trust's limited resources.

What I need to know is why the Classic is underperforming so spectacularly.  If it's to do with the settings in the 'Battery Status Meter' sheet in the App I'd like to kow why I still haven't come across any reference to this, and the need to configure it correctly, in any of the Midnite Classic documentation apart from a passing reference to it in the video on programming the app for the WhizzBang.

Oh, wait.  I forgot.  I was supposed to have intuited it.

[dgd]

Viola,

Ok, it appears from what you are telling us that there are more issues if the Classic is not producing your expectation of power.
Why did you decide to change from the C35 to a Classic Lite?
What is the PV panels details you have as input to the Classic, make and model of panels, maximum power voltage (mpv) and Amps output. If you have several panels or an array of panels how are they wired to the controller? in parallel? in series strings? or combination of both?
What batteries do you have and what is the battery bank working voltage, usually 12v, 24v or 48v.
What voltage do you see from your panels as input to the Classic?
Can you post here an image of your local App display when power is being generated from solar panel input?

dgd

[viola]

Viola,

Ok, it appears from what you are telling us that there are more issues if the Classic is not producing your expectation of power.

If the Classic's default expectation is a 5 Ah battery with 10% efficiency it's probably performing superbly.  When I can get up there to read the registration number off of it and then come back down again with the ability to access and program it remotely via the local app with the right information I expect all will be will and all things will be well and flights of angels will sing me to my rest.

Why did you decide to change from the C35 to a Classic Lite?

The lead-acid batteries on site were coming up to six years old, and checking/maintaining their fluid levels imposed a need for regular visits to the site I could live without so we elected to replace them with a sealed unit.  We're also looking to expand the site with another AP and I'd read that MTTP is more efficient than PWR meaning, hopefully, we wouldn't need to add any more pv panels.  Research on the web suggested Midnite was the best of the bunch, as well as being watchable over the network.   This site is the access point for half the network and handles the backhaul to our fibre connection in Picton, and is mission critical for us.

What is the PV panels details you have as input to the Classic, make and model of panels, maximum power voltage (mpv) and Amps output. If you have several panels or an array of panels how are they wired to the controller? in parallel? in series strings? or combination of both?

We had to build this site on its hilltop from scratch and it was a community effort - hauling stuff up there and crowbaring holes in rock for railway-iron supports set in concrete.  We initially provided a frame for three BP380J 80W panels but at that time could only afford - and only needed - two.  When we needed more power a couple of years later the BP panels were no longer available and the only one we could get to fit the space available was a nameless 85 Watt Chinese one.  They are chained in parallel to the Controller through a DC breaker.

What batteries do you have and what is the battery bank working voltage, usually 12v, 24v or 48v.

Battery is an AA Champion C12V325.  12 volt, 325 Ah AGM. 

What voltage do you see from your panels as input to the Classic?

Downhill with the wind behind it it's sometimes 18 volt, occasionally 20 volt.   We took out the Xantrex and lead-acids in favour of the Classic and the AGM last Friday, with the Classic programmed by toothpick as per instructions.  I eventually managed to get the local app working and make contract with the thing over the network for my first sight of the Control Panel on Tuesday of this week.  I have seen 180 Watts on the dial with the thing in Bulk MTTP mode but that was only briefly and it spent most of today in float mode at about 40 Watts putting around 4 amps into the battery at 13.8 Volts.

Can you post here an image of your local App display when power is being generated from solar panel input?

Will do it tomorrow when the sun's shining.  If the sun shines - forceast is for NW gales and rain tomorrow.

[Halfcrazy]

I understand we suck and you hate us but for the under performing I will try to help. (I have decided not to try to defend against all the negativity anymore)

The battery meter settings on the Local App would not even be in the Classic as it is to old in the firmware dept. Also the battery meter settings have nothing to do with charging they only pertain to the SOC% meter.

DGD hit on it and I did not see an Answer. What is the VOC (Open circuit voltage) of the PV array? If there was a C35 in there it is probably low and that causes heartburn for any MPPT charger.

Ryan

[dgd]

Viola,

The input voltage into your Classic is too low to allow  MPPT to work efficiently.
An MPPT controller needs a reasonable voltage input ABOVE the battery voltage. In the case of a 12v battery this would mean at least two nominal 12 volt panels (which your panels are) in series to make 24v. The actual voltage input will vary up to the Maximum Power Voltage the panel can make - in your case 18v per panel.

In your situation with three panels I would wire them in series to give an MPV of just over 50 volts.
The Classic would certainly be able to use Solar mode MPPT to  charge your 12v battery and even in less optimal weather  conditions there may be sufficient voltage to keep charging.

Those shaded out areas in the local app setup are only applicable when the WBjr  is connected. They are meaningless to your present set up and do not mean anything.
Ignore them and the low default values in them.
They do not effect the normal operation of the Classic

I agree that the local app manual and documentation need updating.

dgd

[dgd]

I have to agree with Viola on this, and disagree about the only top end controller with up-datable wares.  I've done several painless updates on my MS MPPT 60 controller (charger and network sides)  and on my XW Inverter. 
But so far, my laptop does not even see the Classic connected with the USB 

Ok, thanks for update on MS controller,  last time I used one there was no firmware update ability so it's changed with the mppt60.
When you say does not even see does this mean you have followed the firmware install instructions and it fails at some stage of the process?  Or have you just plugged in USB from Classic to your computer and computer does not respond?

Dgd

[zoneblue]

You have got to be kidding. You want the whizbang and SOC to work using 1070 firmware. Sorry not gonna happen.

All of this heartache could have been avoided if you had come here at the outset. Its called a support forum for good reason.

You NEED to upgrade the firmware. Midnite works differently, the firmware is constantly updated on a rolling basis incrementally adding new features. Its this that means that it has the latest and greatest featureset. You cant have one without the other. Its an ethusiast product, not something you can plug, play and walk away.

But frankly if you havent sorted out your Vmp issues, your problems are a good deal greater than Midnites controller. Good luck with that! But should you decide to become a little more concillatory youll find plentry of volunteer help here.

[boB]

I have seen 180 Watts on the dial with the thing in Bulk MTTP mode but that was only briefly and it spent most of today in float mode at about 40 Watts putting around 4 amps into the battery at 13.8 Volts.

When the battery is full and the charge controller goes to Float charge stage, the power will necessarily be
lower than when in Bulk where the power is needed.

How long was it in Absorb (after Bulk) before it went to Float ?  It should normally stay in Float
a while...  Usually a couple of hours or so.  Maybe you have Ending Amps set above zero and so
it went to Float early because of that ?

I ask how long because you mentioned it was in Bulk briefly.

[viola]

OK, here's the screenshot of the Panel taken a few moments ago at 10.00 on a very overcast day.  In fact the device, like my Uncle Henry, is spending more of it's time currently 'resting' tho' the input voltage then goes up to 18.  I've seen as much as 18 watts on the dial, too, with a grand amount of 0.7 amps being sent to the battery.

Zoneblue - why should it ever be necessary, when buying something from a reputable concern, to have to go to a public forum to discover how to use it?  Fora are great for enthusiasts to pick over the finer details and discuss new and better ways of doing things but all I want is a reliable power supply for the wireless broadband I'm supplying to my neighbours, on a voluntary, non-profit basis.  If I've correctly followed the manufacturer's instructions to installing and maintaining the system I rely on it to work.

I did discuss pv voltage with a solar installer on the basis of what we have and the advice was to leave it as it is.  I also ran a  thread on it on "http://www.solarpaneltalk.com" and was advised that parallel or series was swings and roundabouts, with higher line losses at higher currents, plus higher voltages tend to run warmer which means you're wasting watts heating the air.   Also the VOC of our panels = 22, and as the Classic Lite Quick Start Guide tells me the "SOLAR mode is best suited for .... un-shaded PV arrays that are at least one nominal vote above the battery voltage."  As parallel gives me at least one nominal volt above the battery voltage what possible reason should I have for rewiring the array into series?

[viola]

I have seen 180 Watts on the dial with the thing in Bulk MTTP mode but that was only briefly and it spent most of today in float mode at about 40 Watts putting around 4 amps into the battery at 13.8 Volts.

When the battery is full and the charge controller goes to Float charge stage, the power will necessarily be
lower than when in Bulk where the power is needed.

How long was it in Absorb (after Bulk) before it went to Float ?  It should normally stay in Float
a while...  Usually a couple of hours or so.  Maybe you have Ending Amps set above zero and so
it went to Float early because of that ?

I ask how long because you mentioned it was in Bulk briefly.

I doubt what the panel displays has any relationship to reality  - it was showing itself in Bulk this morning for a short while with input volts less than the battery voltage and an impressive 1 watt on the dial.