Help designing PV and Wind Setup on a Sailboat

[musterpoint]

Hi Folks.
  I'm new to solar and looking to build a system on my sailboat.  Not knowing much, I went out and bought 4 x 260w solar panels.

  Then I started looking for charge controller.  Not the right way of doing things, I know but I'm learning the hard way, what can I say?

  The boat has a 12v system supplied by a 330ah battery bank (3 x 12v marine batteries); shore power with an inverter/charger and 80ah alternator and not much else.

  The PV panels will go 2 on the radar arch and 2 on the cockpit roof.  I've been told each location should be a separate string because of shading from the sails etc. meaning I'll need at least 2 controllers.  However when I use the KID sizing tool I get the following result: (see attachment)

  I'm looking for advice and a components list so I can design a system that is 'Marine Capable' and allows me to add a wind generator and backup gas generator in stages.

Any advice is appreciated

[tecnodave]

Musterpoint,

Welcome to the forum,

You are on the right path. The panels will not be at optimum orientation to the sun so 520 watts in into one kid will be OK, you are right the at the  limit on power but it is doable. I would start with two array's feeding two kid controllers in follow me mode. Bully mode would not be appropriate here as the two arrays will have different exposure. When you obtain a wind generator another charge controller would be required as well. This could be a wind kid with a kid clipper which is in development right now for a small turbine, maybe 300-400 watts on 12 volts, or a Classic and clipper for larger wind turbine. The. clipper is required to control the wind turbine when the battery bank has been charged. I think on a sailboat only a small wind generator would be appropriate due to windage.

If your panels are 34 volts or so it just might be better to use a parallel configuration of your panels. It will help with shading issues which I am sure you will be facing.

Let us know what voltage your panels are so the group can help with planning, voc, Vmp, and imp.

If you are using Multi-battery isolaters that will be a problem with any charge controller. The controller must connect directly to the battery to "see" battery voltage.

Materials list:

Charge controller, 2.                MidNite Kid
Battery circuit breakers 2.        MidNite MNDC30
Circuit breaker box  1.              Midnite quad Box
Battery temp sensor.                 MidNite BTM

Additional handy thing to have for system monitoring

Whizbang jr and current shunt,  allows kid to know total charge and discharge of the battery   

With a single string on each controller you will not need to use string breakers or a combiner box in the solar panel wiring.


td

[vtmaps]

I would start with two array's feeding two kid controllers in follow me mode.
<snip>
If your panels are 34 volts or so it just might be better to use a parallel configuration of your panels. It will help with shading issues which I am sure you will be facing.

I'm glad to see you gave the same advice to Musterpoint that I gave him over at NAWS.  He's got a 12 volt system, so his panels can certainly be configured in parallel. 

--vtMaps

[musterpoint]

Hey vtMaps!  I was wondering how long it would be before I saw one of you guys here!

Tecnodave,  thanks for the response; it's greatly appreciated.

As far as the PV voltage goes, this is what the sticker says:

Each panel is Monocrystaline.  Each reads:

Max Power (PMax) = 260w +/-3%
Max Power Volts (VMP) = 31.30v
Max Power Current (IMP) = 8.32a
Open Current Volt (VOC) = 37.00v
Short Circuit Current (ISC) = 9.02a
Maximum System Volts = 600v
Protection 'A'
Max Overcurrent Rating = 15a

Also, when you say a 'wind kid' i assume thats just a regular KID marine controller dedicated to the wind genny?  Or is it a specific model?

If i add a gas backup generator, what device triggers an auto start?

Thanks again !

[tecnodave]

Vtmaps,

It makes sense to run all in parallel as this system will have enough voltage differential at 14.8 : 31 to be in the most efficient area of the controller and to reduce shading that will come with any marine application.

I have been reading your threads for a while now. You make very good points, I enjoy the info.


Musterpoint,

With that panel voltage I would definitely try panels in parallel as any shaded panel will bring down the string current for all the panels in the string. With the panels in parallel this will not happen.


There has been talk on this forum about only supporting the Kid controller for wind use when purchased with the kid clipper. The wind code for the kid is only available for use with the clipper.
The reason for this is that many charge controllers are exposed to too high an input when the wind turbine spins out of control, resulting in their destruction. The hardest thing to control is over voltage. This is the weak point of charge controllers.  Over current is much easier to deal with and you have at least several seconds to minutes to deal with that but over voltage even just 200 microseconds is quite enough to destroy electronics.

Ryan and Mario are the persons to speak with authority on this issue and as I have said this is a project that is in development at this time. I am patiently waiting as I have a small PM DC motor that I want to power a wind turbine.

td

[musterpoint]

technodave, vtmaps,
  thanks for your input.  I've been emailing back & forth with Ryan from Midnight's Tech Support.

  He has confirmed that 2 KID's will be fine in this scenario & I can ignore the "EXCESSIVE" warning.

  He's also pointed out there's a KID for Wind due to be released in the near future.  He couldn't provide a date, however did confirm it has different software and a clipper.

  In follow me mode, you can connect up to 12 KID's (i assume including the Master)

So, thanks to you guys I have a basic design & wiring diagram  that can handle my PV panels AND easily expand to add wind & backup generator!

Thanks Again!

[tecnodave]

Musterpoint,

One minor correction, in follow me mode no one is master or slave. That is only for "Bully mode" where one kid is master (bully) and the outer is slave (wimpy) and the inputs are in  parallel.
Your system would do better in follow me mode due to the different power from each array.

td

[TomW]

Musterpoint,

One minor correction, in follow me mode no one is master or slave. That is only for "Bully mode" where one kid is master (bully) and the outer is slave (wimpy) and the inputs are in  parallel.
Your system would do better in follow me mode due to the different power from each array.

td

TD;

Yeah, that no master bit caught me on The Classics in "Follow Me". You program them all the same and whichever one gets to the set points signals the others to Follow. More a hive than a master / slave relationship.

And it works.

Tom

[tecnodave]

TD;

Yeah, that no master bit caught me on The Classics in "Follow Me". You program them all the same and whichever one gets to the set points signals the others to Follow. More a hive than a master / slave relationship.

And it works.

Tom

TomW,

So the way I read it is that you can program one Classic #1 with the set point that you want to use for your system and then set all the other Classic's to some higher value dummy set point. Turn on follow me and when Classic #1 gets to it's set point then it will "command" the other Classic's to follow me. Now that is "master-slave" but not the same as "master-slave" "bully mode" relationship as in the kid.

[TomW]

TD;

I would say that is correct that you can establish one as the leader via programming.  My solar Classic is usually the one triggering the Follow Me. Or so it seems. It sees slightly higher battery volts simply because it is often shoving 50 amps into the battery and that slightly raises it's idea of battery voltage. I think. Maybe. 

Tom

[tecnodave]

TomW,

That makes sense that the "biggest contributor" in the "hive" setting would control the system. So you can pick who is boss or let them work it out.

td

[KyleJ]

In regards to Musterpoint's question, "If I add a gas backup generator, what device triggers an auto start?"
- Stay tuned, we just developed a prototype KID w/AGS and are shipping it to a client.

Rumor has it that this will probably be standard feature in the future… 

[musterpoint]

OK - So I'm ready to order my parts.  One final question:
 
Comparing the Marine to the Standard versions, the only difference I can see is the Marine comes with a Temp Sensor.  I'm assuming I don't need 2 of these.  Can I order 1 Marine & 1 Standard or does each controller need it's own Temp Sensor?  Or is there another difference I'm missing?

Thanks!

[TomW]

muster;

Not sure on the temp sensors but I have one of each marine and standard.

The Kid marine version has a nifty adjustable mounting bracket assembly  to mount it to a bulkhead or wall  with clearance behind it.

The standard Kid is kind of a recessed mounting that looks like it goes into a hole in a wall?

I used long screws and just screwed it to the wall as a surface mount.

I donno squat about boats other than it means Bust Out Another Thousand but someone mentioned the bulkheads are too thin to recess mount a regular Kid?

Tom

[musterpoint]

I've hit a bit of a snag.  I'm basing my parts list following the Design Diagram from the Midnite Solar website, however there's a breaker/switch that doesn't have a label.

See the attached pic.  Circled in green are switches.  Can someone tell me the model or type please?  They have no part number listed.

Also, can I combine all these into a single panel or is it recommended that combiner/PV breakers and Battery Breakers are in separate boxes?

Thanks