Off grid solar and AC generator/Inverter combination

[Halfcrazy]

I can say there are just about a million of the old DR inverters out there running homes everyday. With that said I would use pure sine wave for my own house. There seems to be a bit of difference between El cheapo mod sine and inverters like the DR I can say I have let the smoke out of a Dewalt charger on a Xantrex 1000 watt Mod Sine but then I have seen Dewalt chargers plugged into DR inverters.

Not sure what to say about the differences but with today's more affordable Pure Sine wave inverters like the little Outback 1500 watt unit or the smaller Magnum I would lean that way for sure.

[laszlo]

I think it's a safety issue. Yes, you can get by on modified sine wave, but why take a chance when sine wave is available and not much more expensive than the old mod sine stuff.

[Tinman]

I guess my point is that we often hear things that aren't based on fact but more repeated from some real situations but make the rounds so often they are the so called conventional wisdom. You fact check some of this stuff and find a lot of stories that either have few sources or are mostly just what someone heard.

As part of my research (applies only to my circumstance) I emailed most of the manufacturers of appliances I have and asked if the model of equip I had would run on a modified or quasi sine wave inverter. Not one said there was any reason why not.

Will I someday swap out my mod sine wave inverter for a pure sine wave model? You bet, just as soon as my current inverter fails or my six numbers come in. 

[nigel]

My very first Inverter Charger was a DR2424E,bought second hand from Germany. I took it with me to Spain to start re-building my house, I  hadnt actually left the UK at this Time. Over the next 6 weeks I learnt the hard way,

It fried a Dewalt 18V XRP Charger on its second battery charge,I had another 2 XRP charger Dewalt  units with other cordless kits but  I didnt choose to try them,......once burnt learn a lesson.... I cant remember whether it was NAWS forum or Home Power at the time but it was one of them that had  the Dewalt Charger on there MOD SINE death list........shockng !!!

It also fried a passive Infra Red switch in minutes, When I tried it with  the washing machine the  motor threw a fit and the belt came off.

Its 7 years later and those remaining 2 dewalt chargers on Pure sine wave are still alive and kicking

So I did all my charging and washing off a Inverter based Generator. Family came out to see me I forgot  to tell them about the charging situation with stuff..... as my old mobile had a Nokia transformer based charger, no  problem, they came over pluged in there IC chip type charger surprise surprise it  fried that. 

I had a laptop with a transformer based charger but it ran very hot and the battery never ever showed full. 

TV  & DVD player all with external transformers all worked OK

Next time I came out it was with a Xantrex SW3024E everthing worked fine for 5 years and still is with its new owner 1 years later  . ( Thats only very finely stepped not pure sine wave but as good as). I then went to Outback which is pure sine wave . ( Again the Xantrex SW3024E was brilliant and on some minor  points better than the OB but overall OB wins easily especially on bug ingress )

I sold the DR2424E on to a friend with the knowledge of what did and didnt work, he had it for 2 years without incident, but applied the rules of what not to use with it. ( He know has a VFX3048E supplied by me)

As for changing your battery based power tools to something which would work with the DR or any modified unit, I had more cordless Dewalt Kit that a new sine wave inverter charger  cost, in fact one Dewalt  drill combi new cost more than the secondhand  DR did at the time. So it was a no brainer to move up to sinewave. However that DR has passed on to at least its 4th owner still going strong, but with its limitations.

Plus a large percentage of modern washing machines will not work with generators in Europe ! but they do direct from a Quality Sine Wave Inverter Chargers like Outback. Electrical Outlets in Spain all when asked just about this senario most will say that washing machines will not work with generators and will not be guaranteed. Even the basic front loaders now have electronic rather than mechanical cycle switches

So thats just my experience with a DR unit.  I wil add it was a secondhand unit in 2005 when I got it I cant remember but I believe it was made late 1990,s so things obviously will have improved somewhat. Im not kicking the DR at all it was and still is bullet proof but
the facts I list are true !

Also I sold a New DR1524E to my Spanish in laws and a DR2424E to my builder about 4-5 years ago.............The Builder is still my builder
(But now has a FX2024E supplied by me) and the inlaws are still our friends and inlaws ( Still with the DR1524E). Both were explained the DR,s limitations and are still happy. With 1/2 Crazy confirming a million plus DR  units out there and very little complaints I guess there like me you learn and you only fry things once.

The DR was and is a great unit, great charger and a tolerant generator friendly machine but it is not and never will be friendly to every thing you hook up to it, if it was and its sucessor the TR was even better why do most people prefer Pure Sine Wave ?

Written from real life experience not from so called conventional wisdom !

Nuff said

On a happier note all the fried stuff was relatively new and replaced under warranty. I reattached the washing machine belt.
I didnt tell them I was Modified in anyway

Nigel

[niel]

this certainly isn't just hearsay. don't get me wrong here as a good modsine inverter is good when the items being powered are not adversely affected by it and the old adage that you get what you pay for does roughly hold true.

even if the items being run are not destroyed, the lifespan can be shortened of the device being powered and quite often it will take more power to run something because of the harmonic content of the square wave. this harmonic content is often wasted as it will dissipate in the form of heat if not useable by the appliance. that heat is not dissipated in the inverter, but in the appliance. this i know from the amount of electronics i was taught in school and i don't have to have the education from the school of hard knocks as you requested and nigel obliged.

also, it is noteworthy that sine wave inverters are just modsine inverters with a thd (total harmonic distortion) of less than 5%, but that distinction is important. that is the same requirement your local utility has on the quality of its waveform. many of today's sine wave inverters do far better in the thd area than the local utilities do.

quite some time back i believe mike90045 wanted to improve the output of his modsine inverter and i suggested he use some capacitors to short the harmonics to ground and he noted the caps were getting warm from doing their job. not too sure how much he did improve the inverter's operation though. i think he got leery of the caps heating up and took them out of line, but the caps dissipated heat that was destined for the load to dissipate.

[Tinman]

Don't get me wrong, I've not said nor implied sine wave inverters aren't better than mod sine, far from it. If the equipment calls for sine wave, by all means. If you are replacing equipment, okay too.

What I see on forums so often though, is some soul wanting to improve what they have, not changing out entire electrical systems and one of the first things that comes out is dump the mod sine inverter, change to sine wave, dump the 12 volt and go to 24 or 48 volt and it goes from there. Missed is the basic question, how can the guy improve what he has (in most cases the request is using what they have and maybe looking at configuration etc). I bet more than a few just go off shaking their heads in frustration. This comes from someone known to re-design almost everything just because...

Peace

[niel]

sometimes these are the only ways to make the improvements unless you can modify inverters to do better than they do. i mentioned filtering the modsine waveform, but that will only work to a small degree and it will heat up those filter components and will be a constant load to the inverter. sometimes there's no substitute for having the right components in the first place.

[Westbranch]

All I can add is that I managed to keep the magic smoke in (almost) my Dewalt charger.  I happened to be standing over it when tat distinctive hot wire smell started..  pulled the plug and found 6 months later that that 18V battery would NOT keep a charge and the charger (twinned to several others) does not charge up my other 12, 14 and 18V batteries.  I now ONLY use them on a TSW inverter. Btw the MSW is a Vector MAXX soft start(?) 400W 3 years young.
My thoughts, MSW and chargers (non transformer) do not mix, and our laptop transformer ran hotter than when on grid...  MSW = good for lights etc
YMMV

PS I see niel got in ahead of me...

[nigel]

Tinman people come to forums to be advised and learn, or people come to share there knowledge freely .

I for one dont know every thing.... thats why I post and listen !!!!!, I'm encouragingly corrected many many  times by my peers!

A quality I admire in myself

I very recently questioned several  responses I didnt like on NAWS and came here for a second opinion ,,,, because I have that right as you also have ! I was suitably advise with explanations to steer me back on track, I hope as I get older my replies to things I disagree with are more toned, Niel , Robin. bob ,Vic and many others know where I coming from I can and have been waspy in the past , 

If King Kanute came to the forum with a problem say an  ebbing tide... listened to advice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then went back to his chair at the beach shaking his head....

What did he learn ?

But Peace is a good good word

Nigel (newby) just a number 

[laszlo]

I recently got a small portable DS0201 oscilloscope  -- so I went around and checked waveforms on my old inverters and my Magnasine. It was quite an eye opener!

[Westbranch]

Lazlo, were you able to capture some of the wave results?