Single complaint about the classic-input/output terminals

[Westbranch]

Nigel, DD any words about this one...http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html

[mike90045]

Run Away !   Far away

any words about this one...http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html

It's die are stamped with digits, but they are horribly way off.  I don't think you can fit larger than #4 into it.

I eventually found via lots of message board surfing, one in Canada, via ebay, that had good reviews
Hydraulic Crimping Tool Kit 8 Ton Electric Wire Crimper , Item# 330598048548
sold by Spark EMS Inc.
Item URL:
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m516.l1123/7?euid=ff6c6615df054cd5b2d83c2ec68744a7&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330598048548%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1123
  (maybe the ebay link still works)
for $65 plus shipping.   Sized in metric, but worked fine.

Mine in use at :  battery lugs http://tinyurl.com/LMR-BigLug  (links to my facebook page on fabricating giant lugs for monster battery terminals.
(note - the bare copper lugs were just used as sacrificial test articles, they were not tinned or wired into the system. )

[Westbranch]

Mike link still works.  did you see their 12 and 16T models?

How tough is it to pump? looks like short handles.  12/16T models have longer handles...

[mike90045]

crimper worked fine on 0 wire, easy to pump till the jaw meet.

[Tinman]

Update includes pic. Sorry but you can't get stranded #4 wire into the Classic's terminals. Shouldn't even be a point of question, can't be done reasonably without cutting off strands.

Take a look inside the terminal. The problem is really obvious:

1. The blue cover has a larger opening than the terminal so when you try to insert stranded wire it will hit the outside of the terminal and get hung up.

2. Next, if you get that far, the screw coming up from the circuit board penetrates inside the terminal and any stranded wire going in hits that too. I mean, really? Look at the picture, sorry but I used a macro setting but you can see how the screw penetrates inside of the terminal from underneath. That should not happen.


If a shroud is going to be put over the terminals then why not take the small step to at least funnel the wire and not have a blunt edge inside smaller than the shroud. If this sounds like I'm frustrated, you bet, especially since I've had to deal with #4 wire because of longer runs and have had to do this multiple times to get equipment locations figured out after function tests.

I could go on about the nearly impossible ethernet and temp sensor connectors (try to take them out once in) ...

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[Vic]

There  are many here that have much more experience than I at installing  solar hardware.

However,  I've thought about the wire size considerations for CC in the past.  This is usually during an install.

Most of the large CCs have busy wiring compartments.  For example,  the brand Schneider/Xantrex SCC-150 has about the tightest one that I've found --  it is also a POS.

There will always be tradeoffs in what one can design into a product.  Allowing more  room makes the product lagrer and more expensive (and larger means that it might not retrofit to replace existing CCs).  As more of the functions that customers really want,  like communication and field updatability are added,  things can get more cramped.  Another consideration may be the physical stress that cramming a large/inflexible wire onto a PC board-mounted terminal strip.  There will always be limits.

Believe that when tryng to use large wire on these terminals,  a bottom entry would allow easier insertion of the Vin and Vout into the C terminals.

I chose to extend the communication cables into a 4X4 inch cast AL box to allow easy connection of a computer for updating,  and distribution of I/O to/from the CC.

Also,  as noted before,  using a very short run of 6 AWG wire into a treminal block in its own box near the CC is a good trick.

IMHO,  the Classic is the only CC to choose these days for about 97% of off-grid installs.  It has so many useful functions that are simply not available on other CCs,  or are extra cost items on a few others.  This functionality comes at the small cost of having several extra connectors in the wiring compartment.

My solution,  below.  Have Fun,  Vic

[boB]

If this sounds like I'm frustrated, you bet, especially since I've had to deal with #4 wire because of longer runs and have had to do this multiple times to get equipment locations figured out after function tests.

Tinman, we are working on making this work better for #4 wire.  It is definitely a tight fit.

Having said that, it can be done.  I will let Robin respond to that part.

Regarding  long runs.  Where is your circuit breaker ??  There should not be one long run of
#4 wire.  There must be a shorter piece of wire from the terminal block to the circuity breaker
and/or the other terminal blocks in your balance of systems box.

As for the temp sensor and ethernet connectors,  we totally agree the tab should
be on the top.  We have been working to find a suitable replacement for these
but would require a redesign of the PCB because there the proper connectors
don't exist that can keep the PCB layout the same.  We are still looking into this
though.  Eventually we will get that fixed.

Thanks and sorry for the inconveniences and compromises.
The tight terminal block is definitely a compromise.  The next size
up won't fit at all but there are things we are doing, especially to
the shroud that should help take care of this tight fit.

boB

[Halfcrazy]

TinMan
The box lug in the terminal block is designed for #14 - #4. The issue I see is the blue shroud hides it and makes it VERY hard to access. I have some ideas on making this better. Here is a picture of my crude prototype.

On the temperature jack that has been fixed since around serial#2400 the Ethernet is another issue they just do not seem to make jacks that are backwards? We are looking at removing some circuit board on the next revision to make it easier to get at? We never assumed people would unplug these things that often.

Ryan

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[boB]

On the temperature jack that has been fixed since around serial#2400 the Ethernet is another issue they just do not seem to make jacks that are backwards?
Ryan

They do make jacks that are backwards...   Just none (so far as I've seen) jacks that will work on the existing PCB and they are quite a bit more expensive.

boB

[Tinman]

I have a 35 foot run from array to combiner and 13 feet then to controller. Those aren't numbers I can change. From controller to batteries it is 15 feet and I use 1/0 wire for that. 2 arrays and each home runs to combined.

The wire needs to be very flexible, just the way it is.

Were it not for that screw penetrating inside the terminal the problem would be manageable. As it is, virtually impossible to get #4 stranded wire in without clipping strands or having the wire hot the edge of the terminal and the that screw sticking up inside of the terminal. Why the screw has to go through into the terminal hole isn't something that makes sense. Solution? Shorter screw since any threads beyond the terminal do nothing.

As for getting #4 stranded (fine stranded) wire in, I'd like to see it done in some manner other than a test bench or wide open space. Post a video? Kidding of course.

The reason for going through this is simple. The application isn't a room but mobile and things sometimes need testing. I have to get very creative on where things go so it takes a bit.

A solution is a change to the blue shroud. Funnel the wire. In any case, at least don't make the shroud opening larger than the opening on the terminal. If it was the same diameter then once you get the wire into the shroud at least it would then pass into the terminal opening without getting all jumbled up.

It is a small thing to be sure but when you are working at arms length, the vocabulary becomes colorful real fast.

On the Ethernet, why not use connectors that plug in from the front? Plenty of room and almost every piece of equipment using Ethernet has that configuration. Billions of connections in data centers can't be wrong.

[Halfcrazy]

TinMan
#4 fine strand will be larger then say #4 THHN so this would explain part of it. Did my mod to the TB look like it would make life easier? From my field experience with #4THHN I can say I exercised a bit of my vocabulary. The opinion I had in my mind is "If I could just see the darn Box Lug" I am also looking at the screws as well and will work with the engineering dept to see what we can accomplish.

I of course welcome and value your input on making this better as well as everyone else. Feel free to make as many suggestions as you can think of and I will explore all and we will make this TB work better.

The Temp sens jack has been turned straight up but the Ethernet does not have the room for that where it is at it is actually pretty close if I remember correctly. Somewhere I have some pics of the Classic cut in half showing the space.

Ryan

[boB]

......  From controller to batteries it is 15 feet and I use 1/0 wire for that. 2 arrays and each home runs to combined.......

Were it not for that screw penetrating inside the terminal the problem would be manageable.....

On the Ethernet, why not use connectors that plug in from the front? Plenty of room and almost every piece of equipment using Ethernet has that configuration. Billions of connections in data centers can't be wrong.

Do you have a PV disconnect switch or breaker and battery breaker ?

If the screw is actually poking into where the wire goes in that terminal, maybe that terminal block  was a one off fluke ??

As for a top-load ethernet jack, I think we talked about that and concluded that the top cover would not go on very well
with the cable in there and bending over ?

I would rather just change it over to a tab on top jack.  We'll get there I hope.

boB

[Vic]

Tinman,

Fine stranded wire can be difficult to manage, as it is a bit larger diameter than THHN,   and the conductors have very little rigidity compared to THHN.  This can make it difficult to use.  In addition,  believe that it has a much greater tendancy terminla screw torque to become loose over time when used in compression terminals.

If you could possibly use  short pieces of THHN building wire into a small box that contains a splice block similar to this  you may have an easier time:
http://www.solar-electric.com/16220-2.html

You might be able to use #4 AWG THHN ... perhaps if you could cut this wire at a bit of an angle,  such that the longer strands help guide the rest of the strands into the terminal.  It helps a lot,   if each time that one of these connections is placed into the terminals,   that the wire has never been used in a terminal previously,  ie  a virgin portion of the wire is used.  The mashing of the strands from a previous comression can make the wires almost impossible to get into the terminal.

You probably know this,  or know that I am full of it,  but ...
Using #6 AWG makes all of this much simpler.  Good Luck,   Vic

[laszlo]

On the terminal issue, the placement of the terminal block on the Classic is also less effective than on the MX60 -- it is not lining up with the knockout  so you have to bend the conductor inside the small space towards the font to line it up. I use #4 stranded, but it was a lot of sweat to field wire it.

[Vic]

And,  Ryan,

You were really asking Tm the question about the shroud surgery ...  but looks to me that this would make things much easier for those in his situation -- can't hurt.   Vic