iPad app

[ChrisOlson]

While I don't think StarLink is all that great because I think it's over-hyped and won't be a viable long-term solution, I can't really complain on our cell service. While not fast by modern standards, it's plenty fast enough for streaming TV. This is what I get on my iPad sitting in the kitchen with the iPad on the kitchen table, testing to the closest internet backbone connection.



Verizon also uses CG-NAT and their network just connects to the closest telecom, everybody on that cell tower will have the same IP address, but I think that's what StarLink does too thru their ground stations.

[ralph day]

Since it's been so long (since I've seen you on the Greenpowertalk forum) I have a couple of questions when you've got the time.

How has the induction cooktop worked long term?  What battery system have you evolved to by now?  Is the little diesel generator still working, the one for A/C?

I had to retire my big Surrette batteries after 15 years.  Treated badly early on which reduced their lifetime.  By 2019 on absorb the electrolyte would reach 40deg C, quite sulfated.  I replaced with Surrette S550's, half the capacity, but with utility power available they are fine.  Only in the summer do I truly cycle them fully...overnight discharge instead of having utility carry loads in HBX mode (also replaced Xantrex 4048 with Outback 3648 and a Mate).

[LilMT]

One possible solution to work around the CGNAT is in this post:

https://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=5988.0

I just found that Star Link is one of those  GC-NAT ISPs that does not allow port forwarding if you needed that.

There are ways around this evidently so we will have to figure that out for our in-progress com box that can serve up web pages.

IPV6 needs to come of age I guess.

Did someone say  HF net ?  Maybe 20 meters some day ?  I have working ham radio in Arizona when I am here.

boB

[boB]

Thanks LiMit

What I want is a complete peer to peer system rather than having to go through a centralized server if possible.   I just came up with a name for the CGNAT system with a system talking to a user off site.
A "Don't call us, we'll call you" system  since a MM2 type system acts like a web "browser" to connect to the centralized server and transfer its data.

If we can't, then the My Midnite method may have to be dealt with... But I think that that the VPN tunnel may also do the job.  Our com box already has a small version of Linux in it and SSH, etc to it can be done.

But for me, and many others, port forwarding can be done.

Chris, you said that your Star Link latency is somewhere around 300 milliseconds ?   You must be at the end of some line or something because other friends of mine with SL are seeing less than 100 ms latency.  80 ms was one of them I think.  And that makes sense for a satellite that is only a couple or three hundred miles away from the earth station.   Maybe you are just seeing the latency when the satellite is near the horizon ?    You may know exactly why that is and I would love to hear the reason why.

boB

[LilMT]

bOB,

A VPN would definitely be a cleaner solution.  But I wonder how your comm box, could be attached to when there is essentially no public facing IP.  This could definitely be done with a VPN service where your comm box "calls" into it and the user "calls" into to it to be combined on a "single network".  Fair warning though.  Most VPN services add a lot of overhead to the traffic. 

Maybe the comm box could be set up to announce its route so that a remote app could "find its way back".  But I believe CGNAT does all of that at the router level by wrapping the packets.  I would tend to think that "pre-wrapping" the return trip packets might cause routes to see them as intrusion attempts and drop them.

If you all get the peer to peer working, that would be great.  I will continue to give it some thought and toss you some rabbit holes as I think of them. 

Regarding SL latency, my average latency id around 70ms and I am in what is considered a poor service area.  I often see readings around the 40ms level.

Thanks, and can't wait to see the comm box.

[ChrisOlson]

Chris, you said that your Star Link latency is somewhere around 300 milliseconds ?  You must be at the end of some line or something because other friends of mine with SL are seeing less than 100 ms latency.  80 ms was one of them I think.  And that makes sense for a satellite that is only a couple or three hundred miles away from the earth station.  Maybe you are just seeing the latency when the satellite is near the horizon ?    You may know exactly why that is and I would love to hear the reason why.

boB, it's 300+ if you go thru a VPN to connect to your FlexRadio. I don't remember what it was from behind the StarLink router, but 80ms seems about right. We only had it for about four months.

[boB]

Oh, OK.  Maybe that was one of those commercial VPNs ?

The VPN I would most likely use might be something like  Open VPN that is a peer to peer type of VPN and would be tunneled through the SSH.

BUT I do  NOT  understand how you get SSH to run in the first place without port forwarding unless it is done through port 80.

boB

[ChrisOlson]

How has the induction cooktop worked long term?  What battery system have you evolved to by now?  Is the little diesel generator still working, the one for A/C?

Hi Ralph, We have a completely different system because we retired in 2019. We bought a 3,200 sq ft lake home on 1,000 acres. It was built by a doctor and we bought it from the estate. We brought all our furnishings and appliances, since those did not come with the house. But my wife loves the induction cooktop - that's the same as we always had.

We're supposed to get utility power this coming summer. When we bought the place the only way to it was across the lake, either by boat in the summer or ice road in the winter. Last fall I built a new private road with my track loader, 1/2 mile thru the woods to the township road, so now they have a "right of way" where they can bury HV cables from the power line on the town road. Since it crosses private land they charge $400/ft for that. But since there's another off-grid home on this side of the lake, also owned by another doctor, if I give them an easement along our private road and they can service more than one home, they will foot the bill on running the HV cables. That's still up in the air, but my wife is president of the Lake Assn so she's taking care of the business dealings on that.

The system the doctor put here has 10kW of installed solar, a Caterpillar D30 generator, and twin XW6048's. The house was originally a seasonal lake home, so we installed 5kW more solar when we bought it and I got my two Classic 150's on that. The other 10kW has four MPPT 60 150's. The battery for the system is a 1700ah forklift battery that's about 10 years old. The battery weighs 2 1/2 tons and it's still good - it will power the house for three days with no other power. So I'm not going to do anything with that when we eventually get our grid-tie put in.

They put the equipment in a separate utility room that has to be semi-heated in the winter, and put a regular 200A service in the house. These two doctors had this wild dream to make a development out of the property we bought, and utility was supposed to be run in here for their development, so the off-grid system was temporary. But then the one of 'em died and it all fell thru. So we bought it lock, stock and barrel except for the seasonal home that's still owned by the other doctor that sits on 5 acres, that's about 1/2 mile north of us.

[ChrisOlson]

Oh, OK.  Maybe that was one of those commercial VPNs ?

Yep. Can't remember the name of the one I used, but it was a subscription service.

[LilMT]

Did a little browsing today in regard to overcoming issues with CGnat(carrier grade network address translation).  I found a methodology that might work for those of us that are behind CGnat.  It is called UDP hole punching.  It still requires a "server in the middle" but the overhead on that server is minimal.  Basically, Client A (com box) occasionally sends a packet to the server.  The server unwraps the packet and determines the entire path back to client A.  When Client B reaches out to the server, it too get its packet unwrapped and the complete return address is stored.  The address from client A is handed to Client B and vis versa.  The two clients can then communicate directly with the know addresses.  Unlike TCP, UDP does not have as many timing and security checks and balance in place to a packet that has been built on the fly with the entire addressing information should not be dropped as a security risk.

Benefits:
Both clients can be behind CGnats
Sever overhead is minimal
UDP can serve webpages or application streams

Downside:
My understanding is that encryption does not occur on a UDP stream so encryption should be handled at each client.  (This could be considered a plus as it would allow individual encryption keys maybe good maybe not)
Does require a server in the middle

There is a nice article describing UDP hole punch here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDP_hole_punching

IMHO as CGnat continues to grow and IP6 continues to flounder, I believe that more and more ISP's are going to implement CGnat.  It is too inexpensive for them not to.  Regrettably there simply has not been industrial acceptance of IP6 and probably won't be for some time (why "retool" a bunch of programing when they can simply turn on CGnat and get almost unlimited IP's).

I did say I would send you rabbit holes. 

[boB]

LiMiT,  A client device could also use HTTPS so it would be encrypted if you wanted to.

Yeah, that could work but is pretty much the same thing as My Midnte EXCEPT that MM has to keep all of the data where the hole punch just acts as an in-between.

Still requires a non-cgnat server in the middle as I understand it.

It's all just a big pain in the butt as far as I'm concerned but I suppose something has to be done.

boB

[LilMT]

Completely agree.  I would really like to see more advancement on IP6.

Maybe someday. 

Fingers crossed for now though.

[ralph day]

Thanks for the update Chris.  Sounds like you'll be all set when the utility power comes in.
When I first got utility power in the company sent a meter tech out to check the install (to see if I'd hot wired it maybe?) since there was no consumption for the first couple of months.  Jokes on them!

Having our system on HBX (low battery transfer) we can cycle through the day and have the utility carry just loads overnight or when there's not enough sun and wind to live on.  Very handy.  And it sounds like you have a very accomodating utility company.  Are they going to let you net meter?

Ralph

[ChrisOlson]

And it sounds like you have a very accomodating utility company.  Are they going to let you net meter?

From what we know so far they will allow us to build a credit but we can never get paid for it. I don't think that will be a problem because we have burned about 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel per year. We have excess solar capacity in summer, but not enough for winter. And they get some sort of credit or subsidy for hooking a solar system to their utility system so they seem quite receptive to it. And we will be allowed to island our system if the utility power goes down as long as they have access to a disconnect that they can lock out during an outage.

So we are looking forward to getting it, they said that once they come to put in the line it will only take one day to trench it in with their machine, they provide a pre-fab concrete pad to set the transformer on, and it is our cost to put in a CT box for the meter and an outdoor disconnect which must pass a state inspection.

[ralph day]

And being underground will save a lot of hassle with clearing trees, trees falling on lines etc etc