New Off Grid Inverter Charger

[dgd]

My Oztules inverter project reached a major milestone yesterday as I fired it up for the first time and closely monitored the power jack boards and especially the Fets. And it all went much better than I expected, nothing caught fire and no magic smoke escaped from anywhere. The BIG toroid just hummed rather unimpressively, the smaller toroid as an output choke made more humming. I was too chicken to load it up over 6Kw (it uses 12Kw boards, output is 230vAC at 50Hz) but it let the 4Kw oven run to reheat my Hell Pizza large Gluttony, yummy!
Its all spread over my workbench (the inverter components not the pizza) so next stage is to get it all boxed up and sort out a simple arduino CPU to monitor everything (mostly temps)
I realize its probably wishful thinking but I sorta think that it would be a cakewalk for Midnite to manufacture this inverter (and its 110V version etc) if only any aversion to using Chinese electronics could be overcome and a deal done with PowerJack.

dgd

[Vic]

Congratulations,  David,

Impressive project.  Know that if it were mine every single part would be smokin' !

Have fun with.    Vic

[australsolarier]

dgd

have you ever tried to deal with chinese?

the slightest suggestion or criticism and they clam up, because of their losing face thing.
they will just ignore you if they think you want advice or something.

this is one of the reasons i bought two midnite classics. the blokes making and designing them are actually approachable and when something goes wrong they stand to it and undertake to correct it.

have a look at this and they are taiwanese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4E9xbTqH8

there are some more videos about it.

[dgd]

Thanks Vic. This inverter project sure was interesting.
My fingers are still sometimes sore from all of the copper wire unwinding and efforts to straighten it to get the kinks out.
But the all up cost was low, two AU$99 inspire solar GTIs, USD90 Powerjack 12Kw power board and USD45 Powerjack control board, NZ100 for assorted 35mm/50mm cable, fibreglass resin, tape etc..

Australsolarier
you are correct but this was lowish cost component purchase needing zero support, I bought two sets just to have spares.
I would need to be pretty desperate to buy more complex electronic devices such as complete inverter or charge controller since I know support is about non existant.
Just had a Fangpusun FM60 (Outback FM60 clone) to play with and in the chenglish docs it redirects to OB forum for support 

dgd

[australsolarier]

dgd

i understand your project. i meant it in relation with midnite solar teaming up with PJ to make an inverter. the chinese are also in the habit of changing things without informing the overseas manufacturer. (i suppose they do not know what some of the parts are for, like a small capacitor for interference suppression)

how did that fm60 clone go?  just wondering.

[dgd]

Aus,
I was suggesting an MN/Powerjack liason as it would hopefully get an MN grunt inverter available sooner rather than way-in-the-future later timescale. I also thought that with the proven inverter design expertise extant in MN would mean improved  replacement Powerjack control boards would soon appear.
But as I said before its wishful thinking.  Won't happen   

The Fanpusun FM60 is AFAIK a 100% OB clone with just the new name on the front casting. Didn't do much with it but along with my borrowed (from Able Solar in NZ) MX60 I am using it to get a server connected to the mate port.
It looks like I will be inheriting a Fangpusun FM80 after I complete a Classic150/arduino web server upgrade for a new customer site. I also ended up with an MS MPPT30  the same way 

Not sure what I will do with it as I only supply MN controllers

dgd

[Westbranch]

The Fanpusun FM60 is AFAIK a 100% OB clone with just the new name on the front casting.
dgd

How does that saying go.... imitation is the best form of flattery??? 

[dgd]

How does that saying go.... imitation is the best form of flattery??? 

I think somewhere someone said the Wenzhou Xihe Electric Co Ltd (China) was contracted by OB to manufacture the FM controllers. Perhaps the arrangement  is finished, or not, and now they decided to use the OB specs to make their own version of the FM series since they probably had everything they needed.
Seems they also do the same with other manufacturers' controllers.
I hope they don't produce a Classic or Kid clone

dgd

[clockmanFrance]

I see dgd has posted here..... Hi dgd.

I like Midnite products and they work well for me, and infact the charging regime is so good I am using it with my OzInverter when its back charging to my batteries, well that's the plan. see....... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1111.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1

How is the Midnite Inverter coming along?

I saw on this forum a comment that said the SMA Sunny Island was doing everything and why would Midinte make something similar?

However, I have had a Sunny Island 6 for a year from New, and finally its going back to SMA after Trading Standards of the EEC, have got involved with Engineers reports and the Like, I am just getting my $3000 back.

Why, because of 2 main reasons,......
Firstly to get it to function for AC coupling and backcharging, (AC coupling is where the Inverter creates a Mini ac Grid and you connect GTI's, Grid Tied Inverters, PV installations etc into the created Mini Grid), and DC coupling where DC controllers are connected directly connected/feeding the batteries, SMA now specifies that you MUST use only SMA equipment and interfaces. But this is not in their published specifications.

SMA sunny Island use the HZ frequency increase to back off the GTI's when backcharging through the Inverter to the batteries. Without the extra SMA connected DC charging interfaces/controllers, the Sunny Island goes nuts and bangs up the HZ to stupid levels so domestic appliances fail.

Again No mention of this absurd HZ increase level in the SMA Published technical specifications.

Secondly, it is now believed either SMA have written some sloppy software around the Sunny Island Charging regime or that SMA have deliberately written software that deliberately sends the Inverters Frequency high if the DC coupling device/controllers are not SMA. ?

I trust this personal information from me is helpful with your new Inverter design.

All In all, I have had a most horrible experience with SMA Germany.
But on the Positive side when SMA just started ignoring me, I made my Own 'OzInverter' for a material cost of about $800.



 

[clockmanFrance]

My OzInverter.

6kW to 15kW, 48vdc to 230vac, Pure Sine Wave 50HZ. AC Couples to connected GTI's about 8kW and backcharges, we use the slight voltage rise when the batteries are full to bang off the GTI's. DC couples with out any issues if DC controllers are independently charging the batteries.

Concept from 'Oztules' John, Flinders Island Austraila. We discussed the design and build here....

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html
and.......
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148827.0.html

I am the apprentice......
This all came about because of the Failure of the Sunny Island to do what it is supposed to.

The heart of the machine is the Toroid. Its a double stacker laminated core at about 240mm OD, 100mm centre hole and 140mm high.
118 turns of secondary at 1.8mm diameter 4 off/4 in hand. Importantly each of the 4 secondary windings is epoxied before the mylar tape goes on each time. Primary is 50mm/2 cable 14 turns through the centre hole.

Normal commercial toroid winding machines struggle with the high core, so winding by hand is the only way, but still feasible. The beauty of this toroid is cooling and no noise. Add a choke of 3 turns on the primary and the idle use is down at 40w.

Control board, here we are using Chinese PowerJack, low cost, but poor QC, but robust and hard working. There are now several other boards available at very low cost and they are being looked into.

Power board, again PowerJack, low cost, but again poor QC, but very robust and the design is hard to beat.
Again its possible to put a Power board together, but the Chinese cost at present can not be argued about.

Here is a few picks of mine......

[clockmanFrance]

My OzInerter weighs about 50Kgs that's about 110 lbs.....

Cooling is very important, so forced cooling ducting fans are used, here I am using 5off. After only 30 minutes running at 4.5kW my OzInverter PCB and toroid was at 42c degrees. We are using a soft ramping up depending on temp circuit for fan control.

I trust my input helps? and you make a World beating Inverter.

Inside my OzInverter, The control meters etc are a mess and I await a more simple and compact arrangement......

[dgd]

Hi Clockman,

I enjoyed your posts on Otherpower with detailed inverter constuction steps and Oztules excellent advise and directions.
That encouraged me to build an Oz inverter since I already had several GTIs with the big toroids.
Those posts were excellent. I used your idea of three parallel smaller cables from the 50mm at toroid to power fet board.

I just got it all wired and tested recently but its still all spread over my workbench. I want to use the two Inspire Solar cases bolted together, boards in one and toroid in other. Problem is front panels overlap original case so won't fit. A new front panel needs fabricated.

However, my efforts now are to get an arduino with 4 line LCD and small KB on front panel. Sensors for everything, I have 6 temp sensors, DC current/voltage, AC voltage, current and Hz. For DC current I am using a 500A.50mv shunt and a WBjr which also has a temperature sensor included.

I really want to get some remote reporting done using a web page to report all the inverter data and maybe include inverter on/off using small ssrs to toggle the control board. Web page similar to the one I posted here in Arduino section, for monitoring the Classic.

dgd

[Robin]

I have been reading a little bit on the more recent posts here. MidNite has not and will not use a Chinese manufacturing firm to build our electronics. That didn't work out so well for the OutBack guys. They never should have done what they did.
All the talk about the MidNite inverter is well heeded. We have ten engineers working on the battery based inverter and two other engineers working on two different wind turbine grid tie inverters.
I can't talk about them much, but will see if this forum will allow me to upload a sneek peek of one of them.

[clockmanFrance]

Cheers dgd,

Yes those 50mm/2 cables from the toroid to the power board heatsinks, even though they are tri-rated, (very flexible), doing the calcs and my general experience, they are just to heavy for one direct connection to a 3mm thick alli heatsink, yikes 200 -300amp, yep its better split into 3.
Also that large PCB board has only 6 attachment fixings, but oztules said it should do?

That big toroid really pulls, so watch out on initial battery connection!.........

Have fun, any pics?.......

[clockmanFrance]

Hi Robin,

Good to here about the Midnite Inverter coming along, yes, I loved your tantalizingly small brief glimpse of the New......

Wind turbine Grid Tie Inverter, good to here. 
As I understand it, the big manufacture that was doing the WB has pulled out of that Wind GTI area. With the way they could not understand the need for keeping turbine loaded, or dumping excess, with my system, I am not surprised.

The awkward hassle with my OzInverter, is a more precise backcharging to the batteries regime.
At present I bang off the GTI's with a slight voltage rise or a relay that operates from the Midnite Classic when it goes to float.

I would be interested to see how Midnite control the charging regime DC backflow.

The Chinese do what they do. One day, probably a generation away, they might get QC and honour confidentiality agreements.
But one thing they did do, was to help PV become a cost effective solution around the World for normal folk, so hats off to them for that....

If you do a Midnite 6kw Battery Inverter for under $3000, now you are talking...............