Upgrade E-Panel with Magnum 4448PAE to Victron 48/8000

[DeeK]

I would like to replace the Magnum 4448PAE inverter (4400 watt) on an E-Panel with a Victron 48/8000 (8000 watt) inverter/charger. I'm trying to figure out which breakers would need to be upsized and whether the existing wiring would be sufficient with larger breakers. The Victron has 100A charging capacity compared to 60A on the Magnum.

The breakers I think might need to be upgraded are:

Inverter AC Input disconnect currently paired 30A up to 50A paired?
50A AC Bypass paired 50A, up to 75A?

I think the main 175A breaker for the battery/inverter line should be OK but could increase to 250A and upgrade from 2/0 to 4/0 cable?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. The internal wiring appears to be 2AWG which seems like it should be ok even upgrading the breakers from 30A to 50A, yes or now?

Also, any help being pointed to a good source for and what kinds of breakers these are would be appreciated.

I am not worried about the physical mounting of the Victron, I can do metal fab to build a new plate for the front of the e-panel or modify the existing front. It's the electrical I could use some experienced help on.

I'm attaching the wiring schematic that came with the e-panel.

[Vic]

Hi DeeK,  Welcome to the Forum.

Regarding which breakers you might want to use for your upgrade,  here is a fairly comprehensive list of real-deal,  and Listed breakers that MN uses:
https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=16

Later,  Vic

[DeeK]

Hi DeeK,  Welcome to the Forum.

Regarding which breakers you might want to use for your upgrade,  here is a fairly comprehensive list of real-deal,  and Listed breakers that MN uses:
https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=16

Later,  Vic

Thank you, I am sure that list will come in handy shortly! I found out that Victron does not currently offer any split phase inverters so that option quickly went up in smoke. I was pointed to the Midnite Solar Rosie which I must say is interesting although more $$ than I was planning on. I had a poor experience with Midnite Solar in the past that makes me wary but the Rosie could potentially solve a number of vexing issues. It's tempting. 

[ralph day]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

[aaapilot]

Hi DeeK.  Just a thought, you can STACK up to 4 Magnum 4448PAE inverters, so you could just add one and have 8800 watts capability nameplate.  I used a Magnum PAE at my previous home and installed a Rosie in my new home.  By the time you add the associated equipment to operate stacked, it might exceed the price of the Rosie?  You could just keep the Magnum system as is and ADD a Rosie!  I've never had TOO MUCH solar/inverter capability Keeping them separate would also add redundancy to your operation, so a single failure would not leave you in a cold/hot/dark situation! Though I've had a couple issues w/the new Midnite hardware, which is new and still developing, they have been really responsive at replacing/fixing the problems.  Good luck!

Dave

[DeeK]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

Here's the story. 10 years ago I bought the E-Panel with magnum inverter and classic 150 straight from NAWS. I was a total noob and couldn't reconcile some of the readouts I was seeing but after observing intently a couple months, I realized they were impossible. I talked to MS many times and they never took it seriously, claiming it was something in how I'd programmed it in spite of going through the programming with them many times. Then they said it was the display and they kindly sent me another display, which did not fix the problem. I finally took a vid (it's on utube somewhere, I'll try to find it) that showed the discrepancy. When I shared that with them, they agreed there was something wrong in the software and the engineers would be working on it.
That was the minor issue because it didn't have a major affect on performance. More troubling was a lag for the controller to kick in and open up the solar gates. In other words, with battery at Float on bright sunny days, a big load would kick in, the battery voltage would fall even though there was plenty of solar available at the panels to maintain at Float voltage. There was no setting that I could find or be made aware of to stop this behavior. Sometime the battery would fall several volts and the solar would never kick in. I raised this with MS as well but never got a solution.
MS finally agreed to send me a new controller and I returned the original. The replacement worked much better, no lag on solar kick in. The issue with the data reporting was still there however, but not critical.
I noticed that the new controller had some scuffing and other signs of wear. One day, going through the menu, I found old data from 2 years earlier that proved this was a refurbished, not new controller. I spoke to a helpful tech who said he was not surprised that the refurb was better. He said those go through much more extensive QA than the new ones.
At any rate, I felt I had been lied to. If MS had asked if a refurb was OK with full warranty, I probably would have agreed to it but this felt downright sneaky because they said it was new.
NAWS stepped up and took the Classic 150 back and send me a Morningstar Tristar MPPT 60A which has been flawless for 10 years.
I wrote this as explanation for my experience but I also did not care for the constant clicking of relays and fans coming on and off of the Classic as I felt those were wear items. I prefer the no fans, no clicking relays of the Morningstar.

The question remains though whether this experience should shy me away from Midnite Solar now. How do I address that? I have seen others with complaints about MS but of course there are complaints about every company, it's unavoidable and part of doing business.

[DeeK]

Hi DeeK.  Just a thought, you can STACK up to 4 Magnum 4448PAE inverters, so you could just add one and have 8800 watts capability nameplate.  I used a Magnum PAE at my previous home and installed a Rosie in my new home.  By the time you add the associated equipment to operate stacked, it might exceed the price of the Rosie?  You could just keep the Magnum system as is and ADD a Rosie!  I've never had TOO MUCH solar/inverter capability Keeping them separate would also add redundancy to your operation, so a single failure would not leave you in a cold/hot/dark situation! Though I've had a couple issues w/the new Midnite hardware, which is new and still developing, they have been really responsive at replacing/fixing the problems.  Good luck!

Dave

Thank you Dave, yes, this is one of the many dizzying possibilities I am mulling. Lazy as I am, I am trying to minimize the rewiring and reworking required. For example, I'd really rather not have to get a larger panel but if I parallel inverters, I'll need new breakers/wiring to handle the larger loads. Plus, we are offgrid so any work I do has to be done fast and/or in short bursts so as not to interrupt our power for long.
Although I'd love the extra power (and backup) of 2 paralleled inverters, I am leaning towards just buying another Magnum, installing it and then use the original as backup in case the new one fails.
I like a lot about the Rosie and am evaluating how much I'd have to redo in my E-Panel to accommodate the extra power but the lack of long-term, real-world experience with it concerns me and of course my earlier MS experience weighs on me as well, whether it should or not.

[Vic]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

DeeK,

I completely agree with Ralph,  that it is diffecult to imagine anyone having a poor experience with MidNite solar.

In re-reading your posts,  it really seems that your "poor experience",  was not with MidNite, the company and its support of its customers,  but rather some of the design tradeoffs that MN made in the basic design of the MN Classic  --  fans,  and a relay.  But having a fan is one of the main reasons that such a small CC can put out so much output current.

Fans are wear parts,  and some of us have replaced a fan,  or two,  but all of my Classics have been in very reliable service,  since early 2011.  This is a very long service-life,  for any power electronics.

I have never heard of ANY of the Classic's relays (of which there only one), having failed.

There are also trade-offs which we make while designing our systems,  like just where to place all of our hardware items,  and our attention to ambient temperatures where our batteries,  and power electronics are located.

BTW,  the Classic's single relay does not switch any real amount of current, as it is smart enough to unload during switching.  And,  this relay is rated for a huge number of mechanical-cycles.

I am a very happy customer of MidNite Solar. The power rooms here,  are seperate,  air-conditioned spaces,  however.

Just In My Opinion.  Good Luck with the upgrade.   Vic

[DeeK]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

DeeK,

I completely agree with Ralph,  that it is diffecult to imagine anyone having a poor experience with MidNite solar.

In re-reading your posts,  it really seems that your "poor experience",  was not with MidNite, the company and its support of its customers,  but rather some of the design tradeoffs that MN made in the basic design of the MN Classic  --  fans,  and a relay.  But having a fan is one of the main reasons that such a small CC can put out so much output current.

Fans are wear parts,  and some of us have replaced a fan,  or two,  but all of my Classics have been in very reliable service,  since early 2011.  This is a very long service-life,  for any power electronics.

I have never heard of ANY of the Classic's relays (of which there only one), having failed.

There are also trade-offs which we make while designing our systems,  like just where to place all of our hardware items,  and our attention to ambient temperatures where our batteries,  and power electronics are located.

BTW,  the Classic's single relay does not switch any real amount of current, as it is smart enough to unload during switching.  And,  this relay is rated for a huge number of mechanical-cycles.

I am a very happy customer of MidNite Solar. The power rooms here,  are seperate,  air-conditioned spaces,  however.

Just In My Opinion.  Good Luck with the upgrade.  Vic

I am glad everything has gone well for you with MS and I am sure many share your experience. However, off the MS blog pages (on general DIY solar forums as opposed to committed MS forums) there are other opinions on the product and company.
At any rate, no, the design and relay/fan aspect were far less an issue to me than the dishonesty of providing a refurbished unit as "New". That, and the QA issues that resulted in my Classic 150 not acting the way it should and allowing batteries to discharge when they shouldn't. On the positive side, they were communicative, could be reached by phone, and they did keep at it including sending me the refurbished unit. So, there is that.
I'll attach the youtube I made. Most people I am sure wouldn't pay enough attention to the system to note the discrepancy. I have no idea if it's been fixed yet, it hadn't been several months after being brought to their attention. As I said, it didn't affect functionality other than it would under calculate kWh. It's a crappy, unprofessional video, but hopefully you'll see what I was observing. As I mention in the video, a power cycle would correct the issue but it would return a few minutes later. I didn't make a vid to show the problem with the solar power not being utilized immediately but I should have as that was the more important issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUYVFYA4iA&list=TLPQMjUwNzIwMjRMg-6eT8Hm5Q&index=1&pp=gAQBiAQB

Perhaps MS has taken steps to improve QA and all problems have been solved. They have many happy customers so that is a good sign.

[Vic]

Hi DeeK,

Thanks for that Video.

The PV input voltage seems a bit low,  although the exact solar conditions are not apparant.  Wonder if you have run your PV configuration,  through the Classic String Sizer   ...

I also wonder about the Firmware version that this running,  and if all of the PVs are at the same Azimuth,  and same elevation angle.

I am totally unfamiliar with the Magnum gear,  so do not know how the battery charge current is determined.

Later,  Thanks,   Vic

[DeeK]

Hi DeeK,

Thanks for that Video.

The PV input voltage seems a bit low,  although the exact solar conditions are not apparant.  Wonder if you have run your PV configuration,  through the Classic String Sizer   ...

I also wonder about the Firmware version that this running,  and if all of the PVs are at the same Azimuth,  and same elevation angle.

I am totally unfamiliar with the Magnum gear,  so do not know how the battery charge current is determined.

Later,  Thanks,   Vic

Thanks Vic, PV voltage is fine. It's worked great for 10 years, no hiccups or weird data discrepancies, with the Morningstar Tristar.

Midnite Solar just got strike 2 or 3. I called their sales number today to see if I could get some useful info on the Rosie (and also upgrading the E-Panel) but I gave up after waiting 1 hour and 2 minutes for someone to pickup. I figure if they don't handle sales calls, the response for warranty or tech issues isn't likely to be better. I could be wrong but that helped me to decide make a decision.

I do thank you for that link you sent above, that is helpful.

[boB]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

DeeK,

I completely agree with Ralph,  that it is diffecult to imagine anyone having a poor experience with MidNite solar.

In re-reading your posts,  it really seems that your "poor experience",  was not with MidNite, the company and its support of its customers,  but rather some of the design tradeoffs that MN made in the basic design of the MN Classic  --  fans,  and a relay.  But having a fan is one of the main reasons that such a small CC can put out so much output current.

Fans are wear parts,  and some of us have replaced a fan,  or two,  but all of my Classics have been in very reliable service,  since early 2011.  This is a very long service-life,  for any power electronics.

I have never heard of ANY of the Classic's relays (of which there only one), having failed.

There are also trade-offs which we make while designing our systems,  like just where to place all of our hardware items,  and our attention to ambient temperatures where our batteries,  and power electronics are located.

BTW,  the Classic's single relay does not switch any real amount of current, as it is smart enough to unload during switching.  And,  this relay is rated for a huge number of mechanical-cycles.

I am a very happy customer of MidNite Solar. The power rooms here,  are seperate,  air-conditioned spaces,  however.

Just In My Opinion.  Good Luck with the upgrade.  Vic

I am glad everything has gone well for you with MS and I am sure many share your experience. However, off the MS blog pages (on general DIY solar forums as opposed to committed MS forums) there are other opinions on the product and company.
At any rate, no, the design and relay/fan aspect were far less an issue to me than the dishonesty of providing a refurbished unit as "New". That, and the QA issues that resulted in my Classic 150 not acting the way it should and allowing batteries to discharge when they shouldn't. On the positive side, they were communicative, could be reached by phone, and they did keep at it including sending me the refurbished unit. So, there is that.
I'll attach the youtube I made. Most people I am sure wouldn't pay enough attention to the system to note the discrepancy. I have no idea if it's been fixed yet, it hadn't been several months after being brought to their attention. As I said, it didn't affect functionality other than it would under calculate kWh. It's a crappy, unprofessional video, but hopefully you'll see what I was observing. As I mention in the video, a power cycle would correct the issue but it would return a few minutes later. I didn't make a vid to show the problem with the solar power not being utilized immediately but I should have as that was the more important issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUYVFYA4iA&list=TLPQMjUwNzIwMjRMg-6eT8Hm5Q&index=1&pp=gAQBiAQB

Perhaps MS has taken steps to improve QA and all problems have been solved. They have many happy customers so that is a good sign.

In the video, the discrepancy I do not think is in the actual power or current the Classic was putting out.  I notice that the PV input voltage (Vmp) is about the same in both pre and post ON/OFF. 75V and 74V. Depending on your Voc, it should be around 80% of that.  Ballpark.  So if the insolation is the same before and after, then it would probably be the calibration of the current sensor that you stimulated with On/Off. 

It's an offset current that the Classic zeros out.  As long as it doesn't do this very often, the kWh should be pretty close to real.   Sorry about the calling.
 MNS just got a new phone system and it needs some more work to be done.  You should not be getting that long hold time.  Do we even have music on hold ?

I haven't seen a Classic do this much offset in a long time but I am not customer service any more.

You can also try contacting by emailing CS  support@midnitesolar.com 

I have forwarded your phone concerns to the higher ups.  Thank you for the input.
We'll get you going.

boB

[FNG]

Hi DeeK,

Thanks for that Video.

The PV input voltage seems a bit low,  although the exact solar conditions are not apparant.  Wonder if you have run your PV configuration,  through the Classic String Sizer   ...

I also wonder about the Firmware version that this running,  and if all of the PVs are at the same Azimuth,  and same elevation angle.

I am totally unfamiliar with the Magnum gear,  so do not know how the battery charge current is determined.

Later,  Thanks,   Vic

Thanks Vic, PV voltage is fine. It's worked great for 10 years, no hiccups or weird data discrepancies, with the Morningstar Tristar.

Midnite Solar just got strike 2 or 3. I called their sales number today to see if I could get some useful info on the Rosie (and also upgrading the E-Panel) but I gave up after waiting 1 hour and 2 minutes for someone to pickup. I figure if they don't handle sales calls, the response for warranty or tech issues isn't likely to be better. I could be wrong but that helped me to decide make a decision.

I do thank you for that link you sent above, that is helpful.

DeeK,
We recently got handed a new phone system and it is not as robust in some ways, One of those ways is seeing calls on hold. I know my sales team has had some long-winded calls lately and I apologize for the long hold time, I will be working with my IT dept today to see if we can get holding calls kicked back to reception for more immediate assistance. I am happy to assist also any time my direct cell is 207-416-2006 I am frequently on another call etc but but if you leave me a voice mail I will call back, or text me to call I will also call back

[DeeK]

Deek, how could you have had a poor experience with Midnitesolar?  I've only ever had, and heard about good experiences.  Possibly a dealer/installer interface that was unsatisfactory?

DeeK,

I completely agree with Ralph,  that it is diffecult to imagine anyone having a poor experience with MidNite solar.

In re-reading your posts,  it really seems that your "poor experience",  was not with MidNite, the company and its support of its customers,  but rather some of the design tradeoffs that MN made in the basic design of the MN Classic  --  fans,  and a relay.  But having a fan is one of the main reasons that such a small CC can put out so much output current.

Fans are wear parts,  and some of us have replaced a fan,  or two,  but all of my Classics have been in very reliable service,  since early 2011.  This is a very long service-life,  for any power electronics.

I have never heard of ANY of the Classic's relays (of which there only one), having failed.

There are also trade-offs which we make while designing our systems,  like just where to place all of our hardware items,  and our attention to ambient temperatures where our batteries,  and power electronics are located.

BTW,  the Classic's single relay does not switch any real amount of current, as it is smart enough to unload during switching.  And,  this relay is rated for a huge number of mechanical-cycles.

I am a very happy customer of MidNite Solar. The power rooms here,  are seperate,  air-conditioned spaces,  however.

Just In My Opinion.  Good Luck with the upgrade.  Vic

I am glad everything has gone well for you with MS and I am sure many share your experience. However, off the MS blog pages (on general DIY solar forums as opposed to committed MS forums) there are other opinions on the product and company.
At any rate, no, the design and relay/fan aspect were far less an issue to me than the dishonesty of providing a refurbished unit as "New". That, and the QA issues that resulted in my Classic 150 not acting the way it should and allowing batteries to discharge when they shouldn't. On the positive side, they were communicative, could be reached by phone, and they did keep at it including sending me the refurbished unit. So, there is that.
I'll attach the youtube I made. Most people I am sure wouldn't pay enough attention to the system to note the discrepancy. I have no idea if it's been fixed yet, it hadn't been several months after being brought to their attention. As I said, it didn't affect functionality other than it would under calculate kWh. It's a crappy, unprofessional video, but hopefully you'll see what I was observing. As I mention in the video, a power cycle would correct the issue but it would return a few minutes later. I didn't make a vid to show the problem with the solar power not being utilized immediately but I should have as that was the more important issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUYVFYA4iA&list=TLPQMjUwNzIwMjRMg-6eT8Hm5Q&index=1&pp=gAQBiAQB

Perhaps MS has taken steps to improve QA and all problems have been solved. They have many happy customers so that is a good sign.

In the video, the discrepancy I do not think is in the actual power or current the Classic was putting out.  I notice that the PV input voltage (Vmp) is about the same in both pre and post ON/OFF. 75V and 74V. Depending on your Voc, it should be around 80% of that.  Ballpark.  So if the insolation is the same before and after, then it would probably be the calibration of the current sensor that you stimulated with On/Off. 

It's an offset current that the Classic zeros out.  As long as it doesn't do this very often, the kWh should be pretty close to real.   Sorry about the calling.
 MNS just got a new phone system and it needs some more work to be done.  You should not be getting that long hold time.  Do we even have music on hold ?

I haven't seen a Classic do this much offset in a long time but I am not customer service any more.

You can also try contacting by emailing CS  support@midnitesolar.com 

I have forwarded your phone concerns to the higher ups.  Thank you for the input.
We'll get you going.

boB

Thanks for the feedback. It's moot at this point because I don't have that controller anymore but hopefully MS got that software bug worked out even though it had minor impact, it was not correct. I think the lag cutting in solar was a defect in my unit because the refurbished unit was fine and I have not heard of others with that issue.

[DeeK]

Hi DeeK,

Thanks for that Video.

The PV input voltage seems a bit low,  although the exact solar conditions are not apparant.  Wonder if you have run your PV configuration,  through the Classic String Sizer   ...

I also wonder about the Firmware version that this running,  and if all of the PVs are at the same Azimuth,  and same elevation angle.

I am totally unfamiliar with the Magnum gear,  so do not know how the battery charge current is determined.

Later,  Thanks,   Vic

Thanks Vic, PV voltage is fine. It's worked great for 10 years, no hiccups or weird data discrepancies, with the Morningstar Tristar.

Midnite Solar just got strike 2 or 3. I called their sales number today to see if I could get some useful info on the Rosie (and also upgrading the E-Panel) but I gave up after waiting 1 hour and 2 minutes for someone to pickup. I figure if they don't handle sales calls, the response for warranty or tech issues isn't likely to be better. I could be wrong but that helped me to decide make a decision.

I do thank you for that link you sent above, that is helpful.

DeeK,
We recently got handed a new phone system and it is not as robust in some ways, One of those ways is seeing calls on hold. I know my sales team has had some long-winded calls lately and I apologize for the long hold time, I will be working with my IT dept today to see if we can get holding calls kicked back to reception for more immediate assistance. I am happy to assist also any time my direct cell is 207-416-2006 I am frequently on another call etc but but if you leave me a voice mail I will call back, or text me to call I will also call back

Thanks for that update and contact info, I appreciate it.