A Forum run by Enthusiasts of MidNite Solar

[insult mode OFF]
[sarcasm mode MEDIUM]
[rant mode ENABLED]

I am not intending to offend anyone but this local app has truly earned the description SNAFU.
I just find it incredible that we keep being told that the obvious bugs and errors are being urgently worked on by a 'team'  24/7
Either that team is just bloody incompetent OR the MN management have dropped the ball or maybe never had the ball(s) in the first place when it comes to understanding the requirement for solid working debugged software to support and enhance your (excellent) AE products.

I have read that MN have 13 (?) engineers on staff. Are any of these software engineers? And I dont mean an electrical or electronics engineer who has been on a course about embedded processing, I mean a properly qualified computer scientist, someone who understands software design and application. I suspect such a person does not exist and would seriously suggest MN recruits a computer science graduate asap.

Just getting back to the local app. I cringe in disbelief every time I look at it, the data displaying part just beggars belief that a simple index error cannot be corrected in 5 minutes instead of taking months - and still counting.. :'(

Computer Science - Elementary Programming 101, accessing data structures:

eg     Array   Classic_logged_data (380)    /* an array of 380 data elements */

         for index=0 to 379
             display Classic_logged_data [index]
         endloop

NOTE that the array is indexed starting at the zero'th location and goes up to 379, there is no  380, as that is outside the bounds of the array

Sure looks like this simple programming concept is forgotten in the local app as the history misses the first entry and starts with the second which is index entry 1.
I also remember somone saying the 0 entry is not part of the history as 0 holds the current days data, not so... if you power off Classic the current days data is lost as it is held in volatile memory, ie RAM but the history is not loast as it is in non-volatile memory, ie FLASH.
And having the display go past the 379 data item then repeat the array contents  :o  Absolutely awful, the programmer (?) who did this should be ashamed...

[end rant]


C'mon Midnite, pick the ball up and get this software done properly   8)

dgd

dgd,  We only have one engineer working on this particular problem at the moment.  Me.

Actually, I am not working on the 380+ problem in the local app but some more
important annoyances that are in the Classic itself.

I know about the 380+ slots.  If you actually export to a file you will find 384 some points.

That is completely different problem related to the local app.
Yes, you would certainly think it would be a simple 5 minute job to fix that.   More like 2 minutes ?


We/I are well aware of the problems.  Please let us at least try to fix it and
don't fan the flames.

If you are a programmer, please feel free to write some software.

boB

Hi Bob,

Two minutes or one hour to correct this annoyance, that's not the problem, because we are actually playing with ... months.

Actually, I have a battery problem and the batteries vendor wants some logs.
Now, I am unable to give corrects logs.


WHY don't you put online a Beta version with this little correction ?


Thanks.

Yann

Hey guys, did you eat some horse meat  ::) ?
Take a breath. Maybe a sled dog trip  ;D.
What's your battery problem, Yann ?
Erik

Quote from: boB on February 03, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
dgd,  We only have one engineer working on this particular problem at the moment.  Me.

Actually, I am not working on the 380+ problem in the local app but some more
important annoyances that are in the Classic itself.

I know about the 380+ slots.  If you actually export to a file you will find 384 some points.

That is completely different problem related to the local app.
Yes, you would certainly think it would be a simple 5 minute job to fix that.   More like 2 minutes ?


We/I are well aware of the problems.  Please let us at least try to fix it and
don't fan the flames.

If you are a programmer, please feel free to write some software.

boB

..resources not available. <sigh>. Back to wait mode  :(
I will get a round tuit, software that does local app functions but I was hoping that MN would move to a built in web interface in the Classic before that became necessary for me.
My programming efforts now are web interface on RaspPi that I have just set up with an 18bit AtoD
Interface to 500a current shunt. I need to get a BM developed to get these LiFeYPo4 cells auto charging.

Dgd

Hi Erik,

No horse meat, but WAF and Waiting stress !!

WAF (Woman Acceptance Factor) :

"his solar installation of more than 4 000 euros is just able to power the computer that is logging the solar production, and NOT all days"


Waiting Stress :

- do you know Classic ModBus specifications ??
- do you know  VariMax documentation ??
- do you know Classic logging capabilities ??

They all have in common the fact that Bob says in two days, or in a week , and we are waiting for months !!  (Re-Read the forum).

Bob is also the biggest contributor on this forum and the problem is that Bob is just an  human : he can't be everywhere !! Developping good Software
And contributing And....


My Classic choice was made a  year ago , based on the logging capabilities advertised and sorry, but for the moment, they aren't present.
See the screen capture of a concurrent in the first DGD post and you will see what is
a logging table !!  ( no colors, just accurate datas).
Another log example :
Every minute, i can connect to my Web Relay Board with the following Url : http://IPRelayBoard/Status.xml and i can see all the values in my browser, without the need for a modbus developpment or a LocalApp running 24/24.

Yes, that's a negative post.
But in some hours, i will post some positive points, after verifications.
Yes, they exist, but without the associated communication, who knows ???

Yann

Hi Yann,

Quote"his solar installation of more than 4 000 euros is just able to power the computer that is logging the solar production, and NOT all days"

I don't understand where datas logging capabilities could really improve your system...  ???

Quote- do you know Classic ModBus specifications ??
- do you know  VariMax documentation ??
- do you know Classic logging capabilities ??

About Modbus spec, I'm not an engineer, just a little musher! I know nothing about that and have no interest in learning Modbus or chineese  ::)
boB gave accurate infos on Varimax on this forum, please take a time to read and understand.
I'm with dgd here, and would prefer a built in web interface.
You're right about documentations, they are not always great but did you read Outback, Morningstar or Xantrex doc? They are worst! It's not only a Midnite problem. All manufacturers are great to make a single function very hard to understand to end users  ;D.
I'm off grid and personnaly, and I've to say that I prefer a great charge controller which do his job perfectly day by day and harvest the most PV energy rather than a common controller which have data logging capacity. Never forget the primary goal of a controller... To me, a company who is constantly trying to improve their products in interaction with end users, with frequent updates is THE way to go. That said, nothing is perfect in this world and I agree that all these bugs in the loc app and Classic should have been corrected for a while even if it's not the most important to me.
People in our society are very demanding for others (but not for themself) and want it all for yesterday. Facebook time...  :'(
I'm sure boB is not deaf and that there must be some good reasons for these bugs to not have been corrected yet.
What's your battery problem, Yann?
Erik

 

Quote from: SolarMusher on February 05, 2013, 08:18:23 AM

To me, a company who is constantly trying to improve their products in interaction with end users, with frequent updates is THE way to go.

People in our society are very demanding for others (but not for themself) and want it all for yesterday. Facebook time...                    

I'm sure boB is not deaf and that there must be some good reasons for these bugs to not have been corrected yet.

Erik

Could not have said it better, Erik. It's great we get to point out the issues and have the designers and tech support comment on them in the forums. 

I appreciate the work the folks at Midnight do and their willingness to share where they are going and even admit their issues. There are a lot of companies that consider this type of sharing company proprietary data. How many companies share bug data with their customers? How many companies charge you for every new version of software? How many companies never update their products once you bought them? Keep up the great work Bob, Ryan and the rest of the crew at Midnight and don't let a few flames change Midnight.

Rest, I'd like to say it as you did, perfect  ;)
Erik

@RestHome,

Sorry but with my bad translation, I can't express all the nuances, subtilities to put my words in chocolate, as I can in French, so I think I'm too direct in my communication.

You seem satisfied, but when I look at your forum's posts, 8 of 11 are relative to logs problems.
Maybe, you are always positive, even facing problems, so be happy.



@Erik,

QuoteI don't understand where datas logging capabilities could really improve your system... 

Why Logs are important : "If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it." (Lord Kelvin).


The installation of my neighbor has produced in January 2013 33% more than mine.

So there is a problem, my installation isn't working as it should !!

The solar panels vendor says that is a controller problem at low irradiation.

The batteries problem is that they don't absorb the charge, don't keep the charge and are jumping hight voltage very rapidly.

The batteries vendor says that the solar controller isn't good at work.


So, i need logs to know what isn't well functioning in my installation.

And when I'm at work all the day and all the week, I'm not facing my Classic to look at the values.


Erik, you say, you don't use the logs because you have no need, until it's running.

It's like a car you bought and you said "no need of the meter and the tachometer, until it can transport me from A to B."

OK, I understand your point of view.

QuoteI'm with dgd here, and would prefer a built in web interface.

So am I, I'm with you in this quest, re-read my WebRelayBoard sample, above .

QuotePeople in our society are very demanding for others (but not for themself) and want it all for yesterday. Facebook time...

NO, I'm not a FaceBook user, no time to loose.
NO, I'm not wanting the future features, yesterday, but the yesterday features , today !!!



Before I bought my Classic, the logs functions were advertised, so for me at this date, last year, it was already in production, not in Beta.


Relating to VariMax, if there is a manual and that manual has been published after the latest firmware version, for me, it should present the VariMax fonctionality.

Instead saying RTFM as a lot says, you say go into the forum posts to find the information, so I will dig.



Also, in this latest manual dated 01/07/2013, the Classic menu Map should have been updated to reflect the numerous changes, since April 28 2011 (page 77).




To finish with positive informations as I promised, consecuting to my precedent "flames",

- MidNiteSolar.com menus are now compatible with the IPAD and the Iphone .

- The latest Classic Manual is now versionned,.. inside !


So Kudo's to the Midnite Team for that !!


Yann

Erik,
You are right, Data logging per se does not improve RE system performance.
It is the medium to longer term analysis of the logged data that provides useful information, such as trends in performance, shortfalls and excesses in the system design or configuration, and data that can be used to plan or justify system upgrading, downgrading or expansion.
I remember just after the logging was introduced into the local app that someone pointed out there was a regular down spike in wattage from the Classic and asked why. BoB answered it was the mppt algorithm rescanning. This only came to notice because of logging.

Dgd

QuoteErik,
You are right, Data logging per se does not improve RE system performance.
It is the medium to longer term analysis of the logged data that provides useful information, such as trends in performance, shortfalls and excesses in the system design or configuration, and data that can be used to plan or justify system upgrading, downgrading or expansion.
I remember just after the logging was introduced into the local app that someone pointed out there was a regular down spike in wattage from the Classic and asked why. BoB answered it was the mppt algorithm rescanning. This only came to notice because of logging.
Dgd

Hi Dgd,
Don't get me wrong, I understand that some people could find data logging very useful and need it everyday to monitor their system from remote location.
The main reason I don't use the loc app regularly is that I have the chance to monitor my system at a glance several times a day and that I don't want to waste energy powering a laptop 24/24hrs.
Of course, I understand people who could be frustrated with these bugs but at this time Midnite has given us a great product so I just believe that we could have a bit of indulgence (and patience) waiting for boB to solve these problems.
From what I've read in Yann's post data logging will not help to charge his batteries... ???

Yann,
Could you give us more details on your system: PV watts voltage, battery voltage and Ah capacity, daily loads, Classic settings...

Quote

QuoteI don't understand where datas logging capabilities could really improve your system...

Why Logs are important : "If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it." (Lord Kelvin).

You get me wrong, all I wanted to say is that your problem/solution is in your system design or settings and that you just have to check it carefully to solve your issue. Tell us more on your system and I'm pretty sure that someone here could help you if you need.
Erik

Yann, you said "The batteries problem is that they don't absorb the charge, don't keep the charge and are jumping high voltage very rapidly."

I think you have a dying set of batteries and what you stated sounds, to me, like your batteries are suffering from sulphation. If they are, you need to take remedial action quickly...

hth

Agree with West, even brand new batteries could be sulfated if not charged at 100% SOC several times a week.
And add:
Did you check your SG first.
Do have a battery monitor installed on your system?
Give us the specs of your batteries, flood or wet?
How many PV watts do you have to charge these batteries?
What is your system voltage and PV voltage?
What are your absorb setpoint, time and end amps value?
What is your daily load?
Don't give up  ;)
Erik

Quote from: SolarMusher on February 05, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Hi Dgd,
Don't get me wrong, I understand that some people could find data logging very useful and need it everyday to monitor their system from remote location.
The main reason I don't use the loc app regularly is that I have the chance to monitor my system at a glance several times a day and that I don't want to waste energy powering a laptop 24/24hrs.
Of course, I understand people who could be frustrated with these bugs but at this time Midnite has given us a great product so I just believe that we could have a bit of indulgence (and patience) waiting for boB to solve these problems.
From what I've read in Yann's post data logging will not help to charge his batteries... ???

Erik,
sorry I was generalising... ongoing monitoring as you do is probably what most  of us do. I'm visiting my MNGP screens several times a day
I also think Yann's battery states and charging needs looking at
dgd

No problem David,
In fact, I'd be very happy to use a "clean data log" from the loc app in order to check/note my monthly production, when it will really work...  ::)
Data log in my Classic has always been a bit funky, firmware after firmware...
From my musher experience  ;D, this problem is first in the Classic FW because every times I change/modify a setting, no matter which one, I've an index or two with 0 value.
My Classic is very conservative, it doesn't like changing.
Hard to help Yann without informations on his system.

Yann,

Quote"If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it."

Absolutely right, but you just need to look at your battery monitor or if you don't have one, you can also check what you need directly in your MNGP/Classic. you won't have more infos thru your loc app.
But you'd better check your batteries first as Wsetbranch suggested.
Send me a PM in french if that help, I'll do my best.
Erik

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay, I was on the road.

So Here is the material, with pictures, in case :

- 4 SILLIA panels 240W in 2 strings of 2, ie 960Watts and 60.8 Volts.
- 1 MIDNITE SOLAR Classic 200
- 4 MIDAC Batteries 6V 240Ah, ie 24V bank (wet batteries)

and .. the measures of the day :

- Production : a very good day : 600 Watts   total of the day  :-(     

- Load : 0.62A = 15.5 Watts * 24 hours = 372 watts
In January, on 31 days, I have 17 days with a day production below 350 Watts, with a 960W total panels !!
These loads are just the Classic, my Inverter in sleep mode and my WebRelayBoard.
Actually, unable to power my NAS with the solar : the load jumps to 60 watts * 24 hours = 1 440 watts needed each day.

- Acid Density (you say SG) : 1.18 at 08:00PM today

- Classic Log

- my Battery voltage log
Note the Voltage jump at 9:00 AM

Yes, here, the sun shines sometimes in February, and the Classic produces with good irradiation !!


- A MNGP capture, with more than 21.2 Amps in Absorb mode

- A LocalApp capture with a record of 1 054 watts with 960W panels

Yann, I am not familiar with that brand of battery but I do know that for other brands your SG's should be above 1.225.
Also your average amps input is a bit low and should be higher.
You state you have an constant load of ~=375 W daily, and you had 17 days < 350W, in those 17 days you generated a negative state (from full) in you bank of ~ 425 Watts.  At 350W per day, and no input, your bank will last you ~ 7.5 days till you reach DoD of 50%, before you know it your bank is dead.

Solution:
You need more panels to match your loads.
you need to do a full charge for several days , at least BULK ( > 80% SoC) with mains or a generator, Use the Classic to Absorb and into Float,  and then do an EQ as recommended by your Batt. Manufacturer.

hth

Allo Yann,

QuoteHi All,

Sorry for the delay, I was on the road.

So Here is the material, with pictures, in case :

- 4 SILLIA panels 240W in 2 strings of 2, ie 960Watts and 60.8 Volts.
- 1 MIDNITE SOLAR Classic 200
- 4 MIDAC Batteries 6V 240Ah, ie 24V bank (wet batteries)

Thanks Yann for the infos,
First, I've a doubt on your PV exposure, I'm not sure that this roof mount could give great results. With chimney/wall on their left, I would say that you must have almost no production in the morning. If you have a little snow on these two series, it could explain this poor production. Sure that your friend must have a better exposure/angle. I would check at first, your PV wiring, voltage and amps output on each string in full sun to verify your array.
Are these pannels oriented toward true South?
What's the size and length of your wiring from PV combiner to the Classic?
Your ratio panel vs battery seems very good, 960W at 28.8V give you 33 amps, that's better than C10, I would limit the output to 30A max in the Classic but that's not the problem.
You was talking about a battery problem which didn't hold the charge, but to me that was not at first a Classic or battery problem. It's a PV problem! For sure, this lack of power is going to kill your set of batteries. Sulfation occurs when a battery is kept day after day in a low state of charge. It could be corrected with regular full charges plus equalizing charge (controlled voltage overcharge after a full charge, at 31/32Vdc for 4 or more hours until the problem is corrected).
If you want to save this bank, you should charge it at 100% and to equalize with a 24/30A charger on the grid or a generator.
Check your array first,
Erik

Quote from: Lya72 on February 07, 2013, 04:45:30 PM
Yes, here, the sun shines sometimes in February, and the Classic produces with good irradiation !!


- A MNGP capture, with more than 21.2 Amps in Absorb mode

- A LocalApp capture with a record of 1054 watts with 960W panels

Your PVs perform really well when they see the sun, it looks like they are almost vertilcal so sun must be low in February. Not much PV power otherwise, certainly not anywhere near enough to keep those batteries healthy, more PVs? Although the balance of battery capacity vs PV ratings looks about right you are not getting the needed PV input in winter.
I would suggest adding more PVs, another 4 of the same. In summer if there is too much power from the PVs use the Classic to divert to water heating.
Do you get much wind at your location? Have you considered including a wind turbine?  Even a microturbine just directly connected to the batteries would be good for them.

dgd

QuoteYour PVs perform really well when they see the sun, it looks like they are almost vertilcal so sun must be low in February. Not much PV power otherwise, certainly not anywhere near enough to keep those batteries healthy, more PVs? Although the balance of battery capacity vs PV ratings looks about right you are not getting the needed PV input in winter.
I would suggest adding more PVs, another 4 of the same. In summer if there is too much power from the PVs use the Classic to divert to water heating.
Do you get much wind at your location? Have you considered including a wind turbine?

dgd

dgd is right, but I don't understand how 960W array with more than 1kw at peak could only give 600W max day on a great day...
Sounds to me like a shadow problem.
1.265/75 is 100% SOC but 1.180 is below 50% DOD, do not wait to charge these batteries!
Erik

Totally agree with West and dgd.
You could add more panels, but if your panels/Classic are performing fine in full sunshine, maybe a ground or pole mount could increase dramatically your daily production if trees are not a problem here. Do not forget that a simple leaf or snow that you can't sweep everyday, because climbing on roof is not easy, might result in a low production at the end.
My panels are swept every morning to keep them 100% efficient (totaly off-grid), not sure that you can do it daily on your roof from what I could see on pics  :o.
Erik

SM &DGD, I think the answer is in that screen dump of the dashboard, it shows he had a peak of ~110w , ~ 7hrs < 70 W between 09:00 and 17:00 on Feb 7.....  he just isn't getting enough solar insolation, if this is an average day.  Total this day, mental calc. ~ 420Wh to 500+Wh being generous.

Actually that is only a bit below a 70% derating 960 * .7 = 672 without taking the vertical orientation into account and shadows.

West, I agree but this shot could have been take on a dark day, on the other hand his array can reach more than 900/1kw, so to me a great day with vertical panels in february should be in the 2kw range (enough to charge 50/60 amps after a three days discharge).
Maybe a good battery monitor could help.
As a rule of thumb, I always try to charge my bank at 100% on the third day no matter it's from the sun or gen.
Erik

Battery Monitor - Absolutely!

SG readings should have drawn attention too!

Quote from: SolarMusher on February 07, 2013, 05:58:05 PM
1.265/75 is 100% SOC but 1.180 is below 50% DOD, do not wait to charge these batteries!
Erik

I missed this   :o  those batteries will be dying already.
Yann, if you dont have a grid connection and charger I would suggest you beg/borrow/hire a genny and give these batteries a good equalise charging asap. And use the genny to keep them charged when PV input cant keep up with load usage..
dgd

Yessir!
Sounds like a, poor PV exposure=>sulfated batteries=>low classic production problem...
These sulfated batteries could also give a false voltage reading to the Classic which ends the charge too quickly.
Vicious circle. EQ, EQ quicky please!
Erik

David,
You are too fast for me  ;D

Funny how often the simple things like Whr in VS Whr each day out is overlooked. And when there is a shortfall of energy in and your borrowing  your whr shortfall from the battery bank  each day it doesn't take long before your system drains it self into the ground.

If your off grid and don't have a generator and get desperate to get some charge into the battery's. Even separating you bank into 2s just to be able to  for  charge at 12v from your car with some long jumper leads. Anything is better than letting the battery s sit at that level during low light conditions/ bad weather. Or even take all loads off the bank if you can afford to do so.

Kurt

QuoteFunny how often the simple things like Whr in VS Whr each day out is overlooked

Kurt, Whr imbalance is only the result of what we are talking about and not the source...  ???
960W PV charging 240Ah/24V battery is a well balanced system, but two important items are missing here, battery monitor and charger. No matter from where we're looking at his problem, source or result, it is what it is.
Erik

Yes sorry I agree .

Though  It doesn't sound like his PV its performing as a 960w charger in his location. Weather conditions and potentially how the PV has been installed determining this.

He already has a classic charge controller so he knows whats going into the battery every day and he mentioned before that he had a consistent 375w load each day. So it shouldn't be to hard to work out where he stands each day to determine if he has a battery issue or simply a imbalance input vs output. (That's what I mean by its often overlooked)

But yes i agree if he is in a location where 960w of pv isn't enough to sustain that load certain times of a year. Then another form of charging is mandatory during those times. If that's additional pv, generator, wind turbine is up to him.


Kurt

Well, lets do the math.... 375w x 24hrs = 9kwh/day load. 960w solar best case scenario lets say he gets the full 960w and has 5 sun hours/day = 4.8kwh/day, that is with no derating on the panels, no charge efficiency or inverter efficiency derating, it is no wonder why it won't keep up, he is pulling at least twice the power from the batteries than he is putting back in. Not the fault of the Classic, the batteries or the solar panels, purely a poorly designed system for the load.

Sorry I think mistakenly I picked up on there error in quoting the units.

I try to make a habit of quoting consumption over time correctly as (whr and KWH) and was going to mention it earlier in this thread when I noticed consumption over time was being presented as just (watts) its misleading. Ends up even though I picked up on it I was fooled by it ;D.

I think they were suppose to write whrs so 375whr 0.375kwh per 24hrs. Hopefully they will chime in and confirm this.

So 960w of PV should be able to cover this 375whr load easy as long as the panels are getting sun on them.

Kurt

Quote from: offgridQLD on February 08, 2013, 06:32:26 PM

So 960w of PV should be able to cover this 375whr load easy as long as the panels are getting sun on them.

Kurt

..and therein lies the problem, he isn't getting anywhere near 975w per hour for even a few hours per day. His immediate problem is that he is starving (to death) those batteries. I wonder if he has got that genny yet  :-\

dgd

Quote from: dgd on February 08, 2013, 07:13:42 PM


I wonder if he has got that genny yet  :-\

dgd

Or just set his classic to Manual EQ at 2.6 volts per cell and about 10 hours to start, and repeat that treatment till the sp. grav. is up to 1.260- 1.280.

The ONLY real way to ACCURATELY tell state of charge of a lead acid battery is a hydrometer, and charge parameters should be set to get the batteries full according to the hydrometer.

Hi All,

First of all, a lot of thanks for your numerous inputs. I will have to read them in detail and understand them !!


To be precise, actually my load is just 15.5W/hour so that's 375 watts  needed a day.
My first objective is a load up to 60W/hour, so that's          1 440 watts needed a day.


With the latest firmware, parameters are default parameters ( Varimax isn't documented is the manual and I have difficulties to understand what I found in the forum).
(I will have to speak in French with Erik)


Equalize is a state of charge that i never saw, the little time I was facing my Classic. Humm, if the logs could say the state of charge  :-(((((

Also I don't understand how Equalize comes ON.

With my little known, and in simple words :

BULK :  The CLASSIC pushs all the power from the panels to the batteries

ABSORB : When the Batteries hits a voltage point (for me, 29.2V, temperature compensated value), The Classic diminues the current going into the batteries. The objective is to complete the charge.

FLOAT : After a certain time in Absorb (for me Min : 03:45 - Max : 05:00), the Classic diminues the Voltage (for me, 27.6 compensated) and the current. This stage is rarely been seen. The objective is to maintain the battery charged.

EQUALIZE : It's after FLOAT.  In the documentation, there is a redirection problem : "refer to page Error! Bookmark not defined. for details on setting up EQ."


To follow...

Yann

Yann,
BULK :  The CLASSIC pushs all the power from the panels to the batteries: Yes

ABSORB : When the Batteries hits a voltage point (for me, 29.2V, temperature compensated value), The Classic diminues the current going into the batteries. The objective is to complete the charge: 29.2V seems to be a good Absorb voltage for these batteries, but better check with you battery manufacturer/dealer.
FLOAT : After a certain time in Absorb (for me Min : 03:45 - Max : 05:00), the Classic diminues the Voltage (for me, 27.6 compensated) and the current. This stage is rarely been seen. The objective is to maintain the battery charged: Your Absorb time is too long, I would suggest Min 30mn/ Max 2hr30. Your float time seems too high to me, would suggest 26.8V but better check with you battery manufacturer/dealer.

To Equalize, you'll need first to set EQ voltage (31/32V) in the Classic CHARGE=> Volt menu and time in CHARGE=>ChgTime.
That's where you can set all Absorb, Float, and Eq time and voltage.
Then go to CHARGE=>EQ and press the upper arrow to start EQ or press lower arrow to stop it at any time.
You could set it to start automatically, but this is not very usefull because it's not a true EQ as it wouldn't start after a full charge (float) when batteries are really full  :-[.
You have to understand roughly that Absorb time=Bulk time but it could be too long or too short for a given battery, so time limits Min/Max were added to be more accurate. Bob improved it and added Varimax to limit bulk and to be even more accurate (to not overcharge) when cloudly or in case bulk time would be too long because of specific reasons, ex: exposure, shadow, etc...
In the last firmware, you can use/set varimax or not. From what I understand, Absorb Time, say 2hrs with varimax disabled will result in a fixed 2hrs absorb time length (someone wil correct me if I'm wrong  ;)), With varimax enable, say Mintime 30mn, Maxtime 2hrs (5A current), Bulk time counter will count only when a 5A bulk current is available and the Classic will hold Absorb somewhere in a 30mn to 2hrs range.
Another Way to end Absorb is to set your Classic EA (end current) function to 1 or 2% of you battery bank, somewhere between 3A to 4.8A for you. You will have to take in account and add all of your DC loads amps (if steady) to not overcharge and set your absorb time longer, say 3hrs (with Varimax disabled) in order to have EA to end this Absorb.

To Equalize with your Classic, you'd need your array to produce enough energy to hold 31/32V for a given time, say 4hrs or more.
But you DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PV POWER TO DO THAT AT THIS TIME, because of a low PV production/exposure!
1.180 is below 50% SOC and your batteries are slowly but surely dying.
You'll have to follow an emergency process to save your batteries using a generator or grid with an inverter/charger or a simple 25A/24V charger (better than nothing, ex: Iota DLS2725). Disconnect all your DC loads. Start the generator or grid and let the Gen/charger run until your Specific Gravity rise to 1.265/75 (100% charged), it could take several hours, you will have to check water level and temperature and stop this charge when the temperature will approache 50°C to let them cool for a while.
You'll need to buy later (quickly) a battery monitor (with shunt) to know exactly what's your batteries state of charge, amps in and out.
But charge and EQ at first! And improve you PV exposure as soon as you can...
Erik

Quote from: Lya72 on February 09, 2013, 06:15:05 AM

To be precise, actually my load is just 15.5W/hour so that's 375 watts  needed a day.
My first objective is a load up to 60W/hour, so that's          1 440 watts needed a day.


With the latest firmware, parameters are default parameters
Equalize is a state of charge that i never saw, the little time I was facing my Classic. Humm, if the logs could say the state of charge  :-(((((

Also I don't understand how Equalize comes ON.

We really need to work on terms, watts are an instantanious measurement, so you can't have "1440 watts per day"  what you require is 1440 watt hours per day. I understand the language barrier, it is just difficult to give proper advice if we don't get the correct info.

Default parameters are very conservative so they will not damage AGM or Gel Cells.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the logs to ACCURATELY show state of charge. Any electronic component that tells you state of charge IS lying to you. It is not the fault of the device, it is just the fact there is no way to keep track of the variables of charge/discharge rate, temperature, Peukerts equasion, battery age...... The list of variables you would need to track is quite long. THE ONLY WAY TO ACCURATELY CHECK STATE OF CHARGE IS WITH A HYDROMETER.

If you have local status panel running on a computer you can set Eq parameters on the "Config-basic" tab

QuoteIf you have local status panel running on a computer you can set Eq parameters on the "Config-basic" tab

Does this work  ;D  ;D  ;D?
Erik

Hi db,
Excuse me I couldn't resist  :D,
1.44kw/hr daily load would need another battery string and roughly 1.5kw PV (with good exposure) to charge a 480Ah battery bank and a good charger with batt monitor/hydrometer for year round use. It's gonna be a long road...
Erik

dbcollen is right. Folks really need to use proper terms.

Watts is an instantaneous energy value

Kilo Watts or watt hours is energy over time.

This causes confusion on nearly every forum I frequent.

Just look at this thread for a prime example. Even after it has been pointed out motre than once.

Not to pick on anyone but there is a big difference between the two terms.

Just from here.

Carry on.

Tom

Hi Tom,


I learnt English by reading Internet, because after the school, my known was just things like "The plane is behind the cloud". Things that you use every day !!!

For Electricity, it's the same.

So, don't hesitate to correct my mistakes by giving the correct spelling on my values, so I will learn !

Also, to be sure to be understood, I put a lot of images, it's international !


@db,
My need for the Logs was to include the charge state (Bulk, Absorb, Float, Equalize) in each record.
Maybe, I should say Charge  Step ??

If I understand you, no electronics component is able to give the battery state of charge, even the Battery monitor, recommanded by others ??

Are you OK that the Hydrometer is the thing that' give the Acid density (SG in English ?)? If Yes, I'm also using this (see the photo enclosed above)


@ Erik,
This afternoon, after the Float step, I plugged my charger 24V/10Ah. It's now running for two hours, putting 4 Amps. in the batteries.

Yes, it isn't a 24V/25Ah but it's the model that was in my garage.

And now, it isn't time to buy a biggest model, because money has gone in the Valentine's gift !

Yann

Hi Yann, I will try to answer some of your questions.

My need for the Logs was to include the charge state (Bulk, Absorb, Float, Equalize) in each record.
Maybe, I should say Charge  Step ?? YES that will work

If I understand you, no electronics component is able to give the battery state of charge, even the Battery monitor, recommanded by others ??  The battery monitor will tell you how many Amps have been replaced into your battery at the end of a Charge cycle and then it will show how many Amps have been removed.  It does not show the SOC of the battery

Are you OK that the Hydrometer is the thing that' give the Acid density (SG in English ?)? If Yes, I'm also using this (see the photo enclosed above)
  YES, SG means Specific Graviity, 

@ Erik,
This afternoon, after the Float step, I plugged my charger 24V/10Ah. It's now running for two hours, putting 4 Amps. in the batteries.

Yes, it isn't a 24V/25Ah but it's the model that was in my garage.

The charger should be used first, or over night to keep the battery topped up,  you really do need a good 3 stage charger to do a proper EQ as the process is long , much longer than the time the sun shines in this case.  The EQ is to 'over charge' the battery and remove any sulphate deposits on the battery plates. That is why it heats up the battery and you MUST NOT let the battery get too HOT or it can be damaged.   

What are the details on  your small charger?.  Is it a 3 or 4 stage charger or just 4 amp trickle charger (only 1 or no setting).

Check to see if you can get a Midnite BCM Battery Capacity meter http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/MNBCM12.13a.pdf  it will visually tell you if the battery has been fully charged recently and the approximate SOC

Quote from: Lya72 on February 09, 2013, 12:51:38 PM

This afternoon, after the Float step, I plugged my charger 24V/10Ah. It's now running for two hours, putting 4 Amps. in the batteries.

Yes, it isn't a 24V/25Ah but it's the model that was in my garage.

And now, it isn't time to buy a biggest model, because money has gone in the Valentine's gift !

Yann

So the PVs provided enough power today to complete an ABSORB cycle and go into FLOAT?   Did you check the acid SG after this and the batteries are now ok?  I would suggest you still need to do an EQUALISE cycle.

dgd

Quote from: dbcollen on February 09, 2013, 10:17:24 AM

Default parameters are very conservative so they will not damage AGM or Gel Cells.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the logs to ACCURATELY show state of charge. Any electronic component that tells you state of charge IS lying to you. It is not the fault of the device, it is just the fact there is no way to keep track of the variables of charge/discharge rate, temperature, Peukerts equasion, battery age...... The list of variables you would need to track is quite long. THE ONLY WAY TO ACCURATELY CHECK STATE OF CHARGE IS WITH A HYDROMETER.

True, with flooded lead acid batteries. But as different technology batteries become more prevalent there is no realistic alternative other than to use electronics, a battery monitor, to obtain a reasonable indication of the battery SOC.
I don't often use a hydrometer but use the battery cell voltage as a good indication of SOC for day to day monitoring.. but this indicator does not work with Lithium cells  ;D

dgd

News :

Today : no solar, just 0.4Kw produced

Just a question : What is your worst day production in Winter with your installation ??
In January, I have 10 days at 0.1Kw produced with 4 panels totalling 960W, facing South, without snow but with rain.



At 16:00, SG at 1.18, charger plugged

At 23:00 SG always at 1.18


Yann

Correction... ? ...

Today : no solar, just 0.4KwHr? produced

Just a question : What is your worst day production in Winter with your installation ??
In January, I have 10 days at 0.1KwHr? produced with 4 panels totaling 960W, facing South, without snow but with rain.

Yann, I would not expect your little charger to make much difference to the SG , most (all?) of its output would be going to the constant loads

When the sun does shine do you have any shadows on the panels?

Yann, can you please add a signature line with you system details so we do not have to search through all your posts for them, thanks.

Quote from: Lya72 on February 09, 2013, 05:44:14 PM

At 23:00 SG always at 1.18

Yann,

you seem to be missing the point that while talking about data logs,  pv input and weather at your location, your batteries are soon going
to be damaged, maybe beyond repair.
A 4 amp charger, although better than nothing, will not recover your batteries. They need a decent charge at 31 to 32voltss for a few hours 4 to 6 probably and the only way you will achieve this now is with a generator. As I posted before borrow or hire one, this WILL be cheaper than finding you have to replace the batteries.

dgd

dgd, RIGHT, he does need a better charger, and it appears that he does have mains power that he has the 4A charger plugged into.

Yann you can also charge one battery at a time if you have a larger 12 Volt charger available.

You MUST get them recharged as SOON AS POSSIBLE before it is too late.

Hi Guys,
I'm afraid that Yann has not really understood all of your posts  :'(.
So, sorry for trying to explain in French, I'll translate if you want but basically it's what's you guys are desperately trying to explain.

Yann,
Ton petit chargeur n'est pas assez puissant pour recharger et égaliser ces batteries. Tu es en train de les égratigner avec ce chargeur 4A. Tu vas perdre ces batteries et celà va te coûter pas mal plus cher que d'acheter un chargeur 24V/25A. Une électrolyte à 1.185 veut dire en clair que tes batteries sont à la limite de ne plus être récupérable, à toi de voir.
Essaies de répondre aux questions que les gars te posent sinon sans réponse de ta part, ils vont lâcher les uns après les autres.
dgd te demande si tu as contrôlé/pesé ton électrolyte après la journée de charge où ton  Classic est passé en Float et si oui quels en étaient les résultats? C'est une trés bonne question et une réponse nous donnerait une idée précise de l'état de sulfatation de tes batteries.
West te demande de mettre en signature de tes messages les composantes précises de ton système pour que tout le monde s'y retrouve. Il te demande ausssi des précisions sur le type de chargeur que tu as et te conseille un moniteur de batterie Midnite sympa et pas cher pour mieux gérer ton système: voir http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/MNBCM12.13a.pdf

Excuse me guys,
Erik

Erik;

Bravo! Second languages are tough and can make for interesting threads. Hopefully that helps him.

I only know 2 languages. English and Bad English so my hat is off to anyone who can communicate in  more than one!

Hope it helps get him on track.

Tom

Erik, that was a good summary...
I sometimes translate in my head literally and I am reminded now  that 'ask' translates to demande 'en francais'.  Too many years since high school...
ps je ne parles pas francais.
Eric

Erik,
Thanks for seeing the need and stepping up to fill it.
dgd

Hi,

@Erik,
Tout d'abord, Merci pour ton effort de traduction.
N'oublies pas qu'il y a le décalage horaire qui fait que je ne réponds pas instantanément et aussi que je ne suis pas tout le temps entre mon ordinateur et mon Classic.

Pour dgd, j'avais répondu en précisant qu'à 16 heures, l'electrolyte était à 1.18 juste après la fin de la période de Float. Mais effectivement, il fallait aussi regarder mon graphique des voltages joint (IMG003466) , pour repérer que la période de Float s'était terminé à 16 heures.
A 23 heures, après 7 heures de charge, il était toujours à 1.18.

Ce matin, après 19 heures de charge, à 11:00, il est encore à 1.18.
Je joint une photo du chargeur, et le graphique des voltages de la matinée ainsi que le relevé d'electrolyte de ce matin à 11:00.

Sinon, j'ai aussi mis à jour la signature de mon profil Forum.

Donc, en début d'après-midi, je vais séparer les batteries en 2 blocs de 12 Volts chacun et essayer la charge d'un bloc.

Yann


Hi,

@ Erik,
First of all, Thank you for your translation effort.
Do not forget that there is a time difference which is why I do not respond instantly and also that I'm not all the time between my computer and Classic.

For dgd, I replied stating that at 16 hours (04:00PM) the electrolyte  was to 1.18 just after the end of the Float period . But actually, it was also necessary to look at my chart attached voltages (IMG003466) to locate the float period ended at 16 hours.
Yesterday, at 23 hours, after 7 hours of charging, it was still 1.18.

This morning, after 19 hours of charging, at 11:00AM, it is still 1.18.
I attached a picture of the charger, and the graph of voltages in the morning and the electrolyte statement this morning at 11:00.


So, early afternoon, I'll separate batteries in 2 blocks of 12 Volts and try to charge each block.


Otherwise, I also updated my profile signing Forum.


Do not hesitate to ask, if possible I will reply.

Yann

So no matter what the SG always shows 1.18? Are you sure the Hygrometer is ok? The float is not hitting the top is it?

Ryan

Thanks all for your understanding,
Not worth, Tom, as French is my first language but it made me a bit nervous to spend 1hr30 (typing laboriously on my keyboard at 6hr30 am  ;D) trying to explain Varimax clearly in a few words, and read in the evening that the only thing Yann seems to remember from all of our posts is that a simple 4amps trickle charger will do the job  :'(.
I've never written such a long letter to my wife  ;D.
Erik
Yann,
Tu perds ton temps avec ce chargeur, c'est un chargeur d'appoint pour garder une batterie chargée alors que pendant ce temps tes batteries se dégradent. 4x batteries te coûteront pas mal plus chère qu'un petit chargeur Iota 24V/25A dont tu auras besoin chaque année en automne/hiver.
You're wasting your time with this small trickle charger, it has been designed to hold float charge on small 100Ah car batteries.
In the meantime, your batteries are dying if not done. 4x battery will cost more than a small Iota 24V/25A charger that you will need every year and each fall/winter.
Erik

Hi ERIK,

Sorry for the time loose, we are in the same "galere" when you must translate something and when your editor automatically replaces your english Words by the approximative same words in French with accents (the became thé, a became à) (you must retype every two words !!), so each post is during 1/2 hour.


NO, I understand the urgency but here in France, it's the end of the week and no shops are open to rent/buy a bigger charger.


So, I'm doing with the charger that I already have (a 10A charger in 12V and 5A in 24V ???)

I can't use the Classic because it's raining and the production in watts is ZERO !!


But good news, after separing the batteries in two blocks, the first block is now jumping to 15.7 Volts and the charger delivers 7A in these two batteries (see photos enclosed, if you are connected !!).



Hi Ryan,

Actually, we are saving the batteries with a charger, without the Classic use since yesterday 16:00.
When we will get Batteries SG up to 1.22, 1.25, I will restart using the Classic, but before, I'm waiting.

Thanks to all.

Yann

QuoteSo, early afternoon, I'll separate batteries in 2 blocks of 12 Volts and try to charge each block.

Yann, inutile de t'acharner, charger tes batteries en deux séries de 12V ne donnera aucun résultat, celà ne doublera pas la puissance de ton chargeur! Tu auras toujours le même ampérage de charge à 12V qu'à 24V. Ça ne sert à rien!
Ryan a raison, faits attention quand tu prends une mesure avec ton pèse-acide à ne pas trop le remplir pour que la tête du flotteur ne touche pas le fond du tube.
Splitting this bank is not a great idea, it won't add more amps at 12V. You will always have the same amps and poor result with 12 or 24V settings, no matter which one you choose. Not great!
Ryan maybe right, you'd better check your hydrometer to be sure its float doesn't hit the plastic cover
Erik

QuoteBut good news, after separing the batteries in two blocks, the first block is now jumping to 15.7 Volts and the charger delivers 7A in these two batteries (see photos enclosed, if you are connected !!).

Did you check for loose connections and wiring on this batteries???
1.180 is below 50% dod, so you'll need to charge maybe 130/140 amps plus 20% in these batteries, with just 7A it would take around 24/25hr to charge them. Give them a try anyway.
Erik

QuoteFor dgd, I replied stating that at 16 hours (04:00PM) the electrolyte  was to 1.18 just after the end of the Float period

How many watts did your Classic harvest during this charge?
Really not good sign...
Yann, did you also check each 6V batt voltage with voltmeter just to be sure that you don't have a bad cell in this bank?
Did you see voltage rising when these batteries were wired to 24V and charging?
A dead cell could also explain all these problems.
Check it and post, please.
Erik

QuoteI only know 2 languages. English and Bad English so my hat is off to anyone who can communicate in  more than one!

Hey Tom,
I also speak Frenglish or Quebec French which is a blend of both, very hard to understand for French guys.
It could be very funny sometimes ;D ;D ;D
Erik

So, after two hours charging the first 12V battery pack, the voltage jumps from 15.7V to 15.9V and the SG is 1.20 (photo enclosed).
As you can see on the picture,  the hydrometer float isn't hitting the plastic cover.

A little rotten egg smell in the room but it's well ventilated.

QuoteHow many watts did your Classic harvest during this charge?

0.4Kwh for yesterday

QuoteDid you see voltage rising when these batteries were wired to 24V and charging?

Yes, a little from 28.6V yesterday at 16:00 (04:00PM) to 29.7V today at 13:00(01:00 PM)


On the second 12Volts battery pack, Voltage in charge, at first reading is 15.8V and SG is 1.18.

Next check in two hours....

QuoteYann, I would not expect your little charger to make much difference to the SG , most (all?) of its output would be going to the constant loads

When the sun does shine do you have any shadows on the panels?

Westbranch,

1°) All constant loads are unplugged from the batteries since yesterday.

2°) In december-January, just a little roof shadow on the fourth panel footer left corner, during 1/2 hour beetween 01:30-02:00PM
The days with 0.1Kwh are only made with day light (no sun) during 7 hours.

Yann

QuoteSo, after two hours charging the first 12V battery pack, the voltage jumps from 15.7V to 15.9V and the SG is 1.20 (photo enclosed).

Keep them on charge without load until SG rise to 1.265. 1.200 is 50%, so still 120 amps +20% to push into this serie (21 heures).

QuoteA little rotten egg smell in the room but it's well ventilated.

Not a problem when slow charging at 7 amps.

QuoteOn the second 12Volts battery pack, Voltage in charge, at first reading is 15.8V and SG is 1.18.

Do you have another charger??? If so plug both on this first 12V serie and repeat on the second one.
Did you check each/all cells with your hydrometer and each battery with voltmeter? If so, what were the results?
Did you find a bad connection? Were these connections clean and tight?
Are these batteries cold? If so, how cold it is?

QuoteIn december-January, just a little roof shadow on the fourth panel footer left corner, during 1/2 hour beetween 01:30-02:00PM

How many hours of sun, do you have on these panels on a great sunny day in february?
To me your array, in february when sunny, should produce at least 1x its rating power, 1kw and up to 2kw (if your batteries need it). But on the other end, it could produce near 0 when dark on rainy days. 0.6kw/hr day is pretty low for at least 4hrs of good sun, that's your problem.
At what time in the morning, does the sunray hit your panels without shadows from wall/chimney? I could not believe that it's before 10hr30/11hrs am...  :o
This morning at noon, in overcast condition, my 3.2kw/hr array had produced 2.7kw, so I will have at least 3.2kw into batteries before 15hr PM (but my batts were full yesterday). In February my array really start producing around 9hr30 AM until 14hr30/15hr PM, 5 hours of good sun are available two or three times a week.
Erik

Actually, on each battery, there is one cell that is 1/10 point above the 2 others, ie 1.22 vs 1.21 on the second pack with 3 hours of charge and 1.21 vs 1.20 on the first pack with two hours of charge.

I haven't a second charger, in my garage.





Yes, the sun is hitting my installation at 08:30AM (see the enclosed picture) of the 2013/02/07. On this day, there 07h30 of sun on the panels.

On the 2013/02/02, I was able to produce 2.5 Kwh by putting loads on when my Classic has gone in absorb mode.
The loads were my NAS's (60W) and a micro-inverter to inject on the grid (240 W).
But it was manual and the sun was not constant, there were a lot of clouds (see my voltage graphics enclosed)



Don't forget, that in automatic mode, The Classic is wasting a lot of the production, when getting in Absorb mode and in Float mode.

Ah ha, there is more to the story than we knew. 
Yann, re:
Battery recovery: Keep charging all day and night.  It is good that the batteries are coming back up, hopefully they will get back to full charge, but as you see it is a slow process.  What is important is to remember you have to work with both WattHr and AmpHr, reason being is shown on your voltage graphs, as time goes on the V (and SG) is slowly rising, 2 days ago it was starting at 28V, going up to 29, now it is starting at over 29 going to ~29.5.
ps where are you getting the constant sampling V data from  and how ?

don't forget to do a V reading after 3 hours of rest, to get the true battery Voltage, and since these are 6 volt cells , each cell should be monitored as it gives greater resolution to the data.  It will show if you have a weak cell.

Shade on panels:  that little bit of shade will probably reduce that arrays output by as much as 50%.  I had the faintest shadow on one panel, I could not really see it it was so slight, and lost ~40%.  I cut down the tree in Nov and watched the power coming into the CC double.  Prune those trees if possible, it will be well worth it .

Grid tie : this may also be where the battery recharge deficit is being increased. Since your SG was so low you should not have been 'SELLING' until you reached float IMHO. Absorb is needed to complete a FULL recharge of your batteries.
Where are you drawing that power from?  The CC to battery wiring or Buss bar?
By selling on a good sunny day you miss the opportunity to use PV for an EQ, short as it may be.

The sulphur smell shows that you are getting a 'deep ' charge and the electrolyte is getting mixed.  did you ever do what is refered to as a "Commissioning Charge" when you put your system in?

Have you ever topped up the electrolyte in the batteries with water?

hth

Quotethe voltage jumps from 15.7V to 15.9V

Where did you take this charging voltage from???
How a little 7A/12V could charge a 12V 240AH battery at these voltage, a 12V system in charge should be in the 14.4V range (EQ voltage excepted).
You have to read voltage from battery posts and not from your charger clamps.
You'd better read the voltage of each 6V battery with your voltmeter from pos to neg to compare if these 6V batts voltages are even.
Erik

Erik,

These voltage were read on the batteries poles on which the charger clamps were plugged during the charge of the 12V first pack.
This is actually slowing to 15.61 Volts. If I measure just one battery after the other, one is 7.81Volts and the second is 7.80 Volts.
(Thanks for the idea, I was thinking that it was impossible to read the value of one battery without unplug it from the other).

Yes, these batteries are going up in voltage very rapidly, see the  2013/02/07 graph in my latest post above,
With the Classic, it has gone from 24.5V to 29.2V in less than one hour, from 08:30AM to 09:20AM.

Yann
 

WestBranch,

You are running very rapidly, like a cheetah, in your conclusions.

I'm searching elements and I will argument on it.

Yann

Quote from: Westbranch on February 10, 2013, 02:26:36 PM
Ah ha, there is more to the story than we knew. 

Isn't there always  ???

Not enough sun to charge the batteries in winter, sort out shading, add more PVs, wind turbine, get a charger/genny etc...
When sun on PVs the batteries get to FLOAT and PV power wasted. Get larger batteries..

dgd

Quote from: SolarMusher on February 10, 2013, 02:46:25 PM

Quotethe voltage jumps from 15.7V to 15.9V

Where did you take this charging voltage from???
How a little 7A/12V could charge a 12V 240AH battery at these voltage, a 12V system in charge should be in the 14.4V range (EQ voltage excepted).
You have to read voltage from battery posts and not from your charger clamps.
You'd better read the voltage of each 6V battery with your voltmeter from pos to neg to compare if these 6V batts voltages are even.
Erik

Wish I had a 7A/12v charger that would make those voltages on a pair of 240Ah 6V series batteries. Either the charger clamps not good and reading no load voltage on the charger or there is a zero missing after the 7    :-\
15.9v is EQ voltage for these batteries...
dgd

Pffffuuu, I'm late to answer all the posts, because I translate and type slowly !

Quoteps where are you getting the constant sampling V data from  and how ?

These voltages readings come from the Busses Bars, after going in a Voltage divider, enters in one analog port of WebRelayBoard. This card host a WebServer which I request every minute from my Synology NAS to get the current voltage and put it in a MySQL database. The graphes are made with JpGraph.
When I bought the Classic, I was thinking that the WebRelayBoard will be replaced for this logs function.

QuoteShade on panels :

This roof shadow just exist during 30 minutes in December-January when the sun is low on the horizon. For this reason, the panels are on 2 strings, the second string sees entirely  the sun. You can't say that these 30 minutes are the cause of the 0.1kwh production on ten days not consecutives. It's the installation that doesn't perform well with low irradiation.

QuoteGrid Tie :

This test was done on one day in January and one day in February because I need two conditions : Great Sun and to be present at home, near the Classic. The others days, I was at work or there was no sun !
When I get on the micro-inverter (250W), the Absorb Mode stays at 29.2V, so the micro-inverter just is using the power wasted. This is OK, unless there are clouds during a minute or two.
This is where my work isn't achieved, to retrieve the Charge STEP information from the Classic. The Objective is to stop the micro-inverter, if the voltage goes below the FLOAT point.

QuoteHave you ever topped up the electrolyte in the batteries with water?

The battery levels are checked each month and the consumption is 2 liters of demineralized water for the year for the four batteries.

QuoteNot enough sun to charge the batteries in winter, sort out shading, add more PVs, wind turbine, get a charger/genny etc...
When sun on PVs the batteries get to FLOAT and PV power wasted. Get larger batteries..

Just to follow you, have you quote an installation like this with all the elements you preconised ??
What is the cost of one Kwh produced with all that material ?, below 0.5 euro on twelve years ?

QuoteWish I had a 7A/12v charger that would make those voltages on a pair of 240Ah 6V series batteries. Either the charger clamps not good and reading no load voltage on the charger or there is a zero missing after the 7    :-\
15.9v is EQ voltage for these batteries...

It's a 12/24V 10A that is pushed to his maximum as you can see on the pictures.
Do you think, that I must lower the Amperage, to continue to augment the SG value this night ?


Yann

Yann, did you check the SG on the battery that is 15.9 V ??

Has the temp risen on that battery? 

Is the battery bubbling or making hissing noises?

On the batteries with 15.9V during the charge, the SG was 1.20/1.21.

The temp is very stable  : 5.7 degrees Celsius = 42.26 degrees Fahrenheit

The 2  6V batteries are  bubbling.


Yann

So, before going to bed, as asked, the voltage measure on the batteries poles with two multimeters :

15.43/15.44 Volts
SG : 1.22

Photos enclosed.

Same treatment is running on the second 12V pack, for the end of the night....

QuoteOn the batteries with 15.9V during the charge, the SG was 1.20/1.21.

This voltage is too high!
If you can read the same 15.9V when charging with your charger on both 12V strings, either/both charger or/and batteries are defective. As dgd said, it's more likely an EQ voltage and not a regular battery charging voltage. That's why you can smell sulphur. IMO this problem come from your batteries as you have pretty much the same issue with your Classic: Charging voltage quickly rising with discharged batteries.
I'd contact my local dealer and ask if these batteries are still under warranty (maybe)... and buy another charger quickly, but a good one  ::)
Erik

Yann, here is a thread on another Forum.  It is similar to your case. Note the absorb times used, Array size and battery size.

www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?14333-Specific-Gravity


What do you other guys think about there being a layer of water/diluted electrolyte on top of the plates?
(2L /4 batts. =1/2L per batt) and if not EQ the water is still laying there... and the gassing is getting things mixed up? 

Given the amount of charge V and current this rise is this rise out of the range to be expected?
I can understand the fast rise if the batts are near full charge, hence my question about a water layer...  but with the loads they should be in a deficit state.....??

The resting V in the morning should help fill in the puzzle.
If Low = bad batteries (All 4??) with hi surface charge? 
If Hi = partial recovery
Yann said:
@ 14:15 the V = 15.9
@ 14 :52 (37 min.) V = 15.43 so it has dropped ~ .5V already.

Quote from: Lya72 on February 10, 2013, 05:52:23 PM
So, before going to bed, as asked, the voltage measure on the batteries poles with two multimeters :

15.43/15.44 Volts
SG : 1.22

Photos enclosed.

Same treatment is running on the second 12V pack, for the end of the night....

Yann,

These voltages are just too weird, when you remove  the charger what is the battery resting voltage and again what is it after resting all night?
Do the batteries look in good physical condition,  is there bulging of any of  the sides of any battery?  When you look at the terminals and inter cell
connections on each battery does it appear that any of these have risen up, even a little, from the cell body or casing?

dgd

Not to sound like I am questioning the use of the Hygrometer but in that last picture it looks like the bulb may be setting on the bottom. Have you tried another Hygrometer?

Quote from: Westbranch on February 10, 2013, 06:31:25 PM

What do you other guys think about there being a layer of water/diluted electrolyte on top of the plates?
(2L /4 batts. =1/2L per batt) and if not EQ the water is still laying there... and the gassing is getting things mixed up? 

Given the amount of charge V and current this rise is this rise out of the range to be expected?
I can understand the fast rise if the batts are near full charge, hence my question about a water layer...  but with the loads they should be in a deficit state.....??

So the SG measurement could be wrong due to stratification with water being topmost layer... with the gassing these batteries are doing I'd expect well mixed acid. I agree the voltage rise is just not realistic with that small charger, I'm leaning towards dud batteries as Erik has suggested..
If Yann tells us the voltage in the morning after the batteries have rested all night then we should know if they are duds.

dgd

Hi all,

After resting during 6h00, the first pack voltage goes down to 12.96 Volts.
On this pack, the SG was 1.23

On the second pack charging in the night, the SG was a little 1.24 and the finishing voltage was 15.31 Volts.

No physical deformation on the batteries.

Yann

Going to work for twelve hours.

I reconstructed the 24V Battery bank and put it in charge with 2A.
At this hour, the charging voltage is 27.9V.

Yann

that  is good news, things are improving, keep us informed when you start the next round of charging.
late night here now.

Yann,
On the next sunny day, disconnect your loads and set the classic to 29.4V with an absorb time varimax disabled (101amps) to 5 hours (temporarily) and with End Amperes (EA) to 3.5A. At the end of absorbing, check the end current (amps) on your classic to be sure 3.5A is a good value for EA, decrease/increase as you need. At the end of absorb (maybe around 3.5/4A end current) , carefully look at the timer in ChrgTime=>view, and note the time spent in absorb before the classic goes to Float, it will be a good data for a given DOD when you'll have to set your max absorb time. Check your SG in each cells and note it. Start an EQ at 32V for one hour if you have enough sunny time. Your Classic will finish the job if these batteries could be recovered.
If you still need to improve SG, charge your batteries with your charger all night, check SG and start a longer EQ (3-4 hours) in the morning with your classic.
Also if if you want to use varimax, I'd suggest that you set it low, say 2A max, to be sure that you'd have the longer absorption possible on these batteries but if you know exactly how much amps your loads draw and if they are constant loads, you'd better use EA to end absorption and disable varimax, it will be more accurate.
Ryan is right, hydometer float seems to be at bottom on your pics and possibly gave false/wrong SG readings, fill it wih more electrolyte.
Erik

Been thinking about that hydrometer issue.  If more electrolyte is added to the Hydrometer,  and if the bulb HAS been on the bottom, it may sink lower, to a lower SG...  hope this is not the case.

Somewhat related:

Awhile back I gave up on floating bulb hydrometers.

Got a Robinair refractometer type and never looked back.

Only uses 1 drop of fluid, no temp compensation required, easy to use:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/311IK-QRY6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-75240-Coolant-Battery-Refractometer/dp/B000HTNODE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360603781&sr=8-1&keywords=robinair+75240 (http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-75240-Coolant-Battery-Refractometer/dp/B000HTNODE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360603781&sr=8-1&keywords=robinair+75240)

Mine was a bit cheaper but still worth it to protect a couple grand in batteries.

Tom

here is one available in Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUBffSv2O0  (for info)
also
http://seekpart24.com/hp/battery-aci...t-tester-18115
and
http://seekpart24.com/search?q=8PD006541001

but shipping to NA is a killer

Thanks to all, for your informations.

Thanks Tom and WestBranch for your links. I will have more than a look to these.
Note (the first seekpart24 URL is incomplete) Can you edit the link please ?

After a contact with the batteries vendor, today, he asked me charge the batteries with 1A for 50-60 hours to desulfate them. My little charger is able to do that in manual mode. Yesss !

Today, SG 1.24, so I will charge one more day.

He also asked me precises logs for the values during each charge stage with the Classic, to match these with my voltages logs.
I was very disapointed to say him that my logs don't show the charge stages so I'm unable to respond to his enquiries.

Erik, thanks for the detailed procedure BUT :

- I will have to find all these parameters in the dedale menu.
- it seems to me that I will have to be in front of my Classic to get the values on a sunny day.  ARGGHHHH I'm working  all the day.


The manual didn't update and no Beta firmware on the logs front,  IS THERE A STRIKE at Midnite Solar ??


Yann

Yann, try this,  http://seekpart24.com/hp/battery-acid-hydrovolt-tester-18115

QuoteAfter a contact with the batteries vendor, today, he asked me charge the batteries with 1A for 50-60 hours to desulfate them

Yann,
Advices that were given here, came from guys with several years (decades) of experience in off-grid or back-up battery system, you'd better listen to them... :'(
Not sure that your dealer really knows what he's talking about...
Erik

Yann, you said,

He also asked me precises logs for the values during each charge stage with the Classic, to match these with my voltages logs.

I would take what he said to mean he wants the Voltage setting in the Classic for Absorb  and Float  and the time limits that each has been set at, ie the min and max time for each, so that he can compare them to you Vlog graphs.

I don't think that a 1 Amp charge rate will do anything...it is probably less than the natural depletion rate of those batteries. I have never heard of such a low rate used for desulphating, unless it has a high frequency spike added to it that flows in reverse...

Yeah 1 amp for 2-3 days wont do much for a Flooded cell In my opinion.

Anytime I have tried to recover sulfated batteries I go for the shock of full current. If the manufacturer says I can charge at 100 amps I hit them with 100 amps

Ryan

Yes, I understand all your advices, but we are at the end of the two years garantie and I will follow the recommandations of the vendor, who is also the batteries maker.

What's the minimal SG must I obtain to say that the batteries are recovered (1.26 ?)

If I can't obtain that level, the batteries will be replaced.

Yann

Yann, I looked but the Manufacturers documents are all in one or another of the European languages...  You should be able to find the charging specifications from them..  The Manufacturer sets the SG and charging specs.

HTH

This morning at 07:30AM, after 40 hours of big charging followed by 24 hours of slow charging,  a little 1.25 SG with, I confirm 1A as seen on the charger ampmeter.


WestBranch,

I can just find these features on the MIDAC EV6T :

MAIN TECHNICAL FEATURES:
=========================
• Tubular positive plates
• Grids with radial geometry reticule
• Active material with specific composition to react
against the cycles stress
• Grids with Pb/Sb/Sn/As/Se alloy which assures
the resistance against corrosion and performs the
optimal contact with the active materials
• Micro-porous rubber separators coupled with
glass wool mat, suitable to avoid the shedding of
active material

DURABILITY:
===========
• 1200 cycles according to DIN 43 539 (3)


Have you seen links where they speak about charging methods ?


Thanks,

Yann

QuoteWhat's the minimal SG must I obtain to say that the batteries are recovered (1.26 ?)

You'd better ask your dealer and in the same time ask for absorb time/voltage to set the Classic for these batteries.
Don't you say that he is the manufacturer?
Erik

Yann, you asked:
[Have you seen links where they speak about charging methods ?/i]

No I could not find any..

Erik, the co, appears to manufacture/sell all over Europe.  Web sites in several languages

I've seen it West, not realy useful.
Better ask these infos to his dealer, he should know that stuff better than us  8).
Erik

This night at 23:30 (11:30PM), after 40 hours of big charging followed by 39 hours of slow charging,    SG : 1.26


I take a picture of each of the Classic menus. With that and with your notes, Erik, I will search for the values to change in which screen.


Thanks,


Yann

Yann,
Just my opinion, I would charge it until SG stop rising for 1/4hr-20mn.
Erik

Quote from: Westbranch on February 12, 2013, 11:37:05 AM
Yann, you asked:
[Have you seen links where they speak about charging methods ?/i]

No I could not find any..

Erik, the co, appears to manufacture/sell all over Europe.  Web sites in several languages

I asked my battery supplier  if he had ever seen the Midac EV6T 6v/240Ah battery. Apparently he had replaced a couple from a Fiat campervan with 6v/235Ah r220s.  Italian made batteries, circular plate type, charge settings same as R220.
I don't know if they are same as R220s but seems a reasonable match.

dgd

BUMP....

Hi Yann, what is happening with the batteries on slow charge rate?

Hi WestBranch,

NO bump, but perplexity !!

After 40 hours of big charging followed by 48 hours of slow charging,    SG topped at : 1.265

Well that (0.005) is a very small gain in SG, so you still have 12 more hours of 1 amp charging to go... 

What did the vendor say to do after that?   A load test?

At this moment, I plugged the Battery Bank to the Classic.

It was a day with little sun in the morning and more in the Afternoon, so that, after learning Erik's instructions, after the end of the absorb period, I switched to a manual EQ at 30.0V for an hour.

At the end of this EQ hour, the SG has gone back to 1.24 on the four batteries. (pictures will be joined tomorrow), so I'm in dubitative mode !!

Yann

1.265 is fine.
30V is not an EQ voltage! 31V mini to 32.2V max, say 31.5V would be better on your system.
If your battery SG is 1.265 +/- 0.005 from cell to cell, you don't really need to EQ. Connect and set your Classic with the correct parameters and do not allow SG to go below 50% DOD (SG 1.200), when at 50%, plug your charger all night to raise SG to 80/90% SOC and the Classic will do the rest of the job. You will have to find the right time to absorb these batteries, but 4amps End Ampere (plus loads) is a good value to begin.
It seems that these batteries were chronically undercharged but not really sulfated.
Erik

There have been many here who have basically said the same thing: you need to really push some major current through your batteries. A good absorb charge, followed by a good four-eight hours of equalize charge at C/10 or thereabouts.

Your supplier, to be honest, is clueless for suggesting a one-amp charge current. that's a float current.

I have read through this whole discussion. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the temperature of the batteries and if the temperature compensation remote is mounted properly with the batteries , and also if the recommended temperature coefficient parameter is set in the Classic.

When I was new to solar I ruined my first battery because the charge controller didn't have temperature compensation - so the battery was cold , the voltage the controller gave the battery wasn't high enough to compensate for the cold. That meant the battery never filled up all the way, and I kept taking power out of it .

But that was a good learning experience and it was only one 12v battery to replace.

Erik,

Sorry for the delay to answer but I was waiting sun to be in EQ mode and to understand why my limit was put at 30.0V.

So Today, there was sun in the afternoon and in EQ mode at 31.0V, my VICTRON Phoenix inverter 24V / 350va shutted down in error.
It goes up at 30.7 Volts.

After searching in his documentation, I found that :

"For correct operation, the battery voltage should be between 0.88xVnom and
1.25xVnom where Vnom is 24V, ie  21.12V / 30.0V !!
The inverter shuts down when the battery voltage is below 0.88xVnom or above
1.3xVnom" ie 21.12V / 31.2V"



So after 3 hours of EQ and tests , 30.7V was the maximum admissible voltage for the inverter.

You really need a Iota charger plus IQ4 to charge and equalize to 31/32V your battery set...
Erik

Erik,

Actually, there's Sun in France and I'm searching how put a maximum of power in the batteries.

It seems that I'm wasting Sun (Absorb is set to 4:00 and EA 3.5A for the loads,     going from 600Wh to 112 Wh) and Batteries aren't full  and  SG is going down each day :

Yesterday : 1.23 after 2.9 Kwh IN and 2.4 kwh OUT

and today : 1.21 after 1.8 Kwh IN and 1.4 Kwh OUT

Yann

PS : Temps are compensated (Absorb set at 28.6V goes to 29.2 and now 29.8V since I elevated EQ voltage from 28.6 to 30.7V ! Note that EQ is not compensated.


Do you think that these charge settings are insufficients until I unplug my inverter and elevate EQ to 31.5V ??   So my panels will just serve to charge the batteries ??

Quote from: Lya72 on February 18, 2013, 06:05:48 PM
Erik,

Actually, there's Sun in France and I'm searching how put a maximum of power in the batteries.

It seems that I'm wasting Sun (Absorb is set to 4:00 and EA 3.5A for the loads,     going from 600Wh to 112 Wh) and Batteries aren't full  and  SG is going down each day :

Yesterday : 1.23 after 2.9 Kwh IN and 2.4 kwh OUT

and today : 1.21 after 1.8 Kwh IN and 1.4 Kwh OUT

Do you think that these charge settings are insufficients until I unplug my inverter and elevate EQ to 31.5V ??   So my panels will just serve to charge the batteries ??

Yann,
I would increase the absorb voltage and absorb time but i don't think that is the best solution.
The power in looks too low for the power you take out, they are discharging more each day.
Since they finish absorb each day but still cannot cope with the day's load it would seem to me that they are not of sufficient capacity - either sulfated,  damaged or Ah rating too low.
dgd

QuoteDo you think that these charge settings are insufficients until I unplug my inverter and elevate EQ to 31.5V ??   So my panels will just serve to charge the batteries ??

Yann,
I would not set Absorb voltage higher than 29.4V for these little batteries. However, 3.5amps EA seems to be a good value for a 16W/hr load.

QuoteYesterday : 1.23 after 2.9 Kwh IN and 2.4 kwh OUT

How do you know that you really had 2.4kw/hr out for yesterday, without a battery monitor...?
You told us that you have 375Ah daily load, where did these 2kw go? To the grid?
Why don't you wait for Float time to feed the grid or other loads  ??? ?
As dgd said, too much Ah/Out or not enough Ah/In.
In Fall/Winter, you should use your system only to supply 0.9kw/hr max daily with 3 days autonomy, no more and charge it at 50% DOD from the grid when cloudly. You need absolutely to have these batteries fully charged 2 days a week or more.
Erik

Yann, what you are doing is called DEFICIT CHARGING

Using your numbers:

#1 we assume your battery is fully charged - which by the way IT IS NOT FULLY CHARGED @ SG 1.23

#2  2.4 KWh out needs 2.4 x 1.15 to replaces it so on day 2 you need at least 2.76 Kwh to replace the 2.4 due to battery inefficiencies etc.

#3  we need 2.76 KWh to break even but we only get 1.80Kwh so we are short -.96 Kwh

#4  now just to break even we need more since you again sold 1.4Kwh. 

#5 To break even we need at least .96 + 1.4 Kwh x 1.15 = 2.57 Kwh

you are killing your batteries again.

Thanks to all for your detailed explanation.

OK, today, I will test, just with the batteries, no Inverter.

Quote#1 we assume your battery is fully charged - which by the way IT IS NOT FULLY CHARGED @ SG 1.23

The night before, it was SG 1.24

Quote#2  2.4 KWh out needs 2.4 x 1.15 to replaces it so on day 2 you need at least 2.76 Kwh to replace the 2.4 due to battery inefficiencies etc.

OK, it was fine, because of a production of more than 2.9Kwh that day.

Quote#3  we need 2.76 KWh to break even but we only get 1.80Kwh so we are short -.96 Kwh

With your calculation, I needed 1.44Kwh * 1.15 = 1.656 Kwh.
That was fine, because I had 1.8 Kwh.

Where's the deficit ??

Even with a production that's more than the loads, SG declines from 1.24 to 1.23 and 1.22 .

QuoteI would not set Absorb voltage higher than 29.4V for these little batteries. However, 3.5amps EA seems to be a good value for a 16W/hr load.

Absorb Voltage is set at 28.6V (default value), that's the compensated temps that elevates it to 29.8V.

QuoteHow do you know that you really had 2.4kw/hr out for yesterday, without a battery monitor...?

It's a simple addition of all loads :
Constant : 375 Wh
Inverter + NAS : 1440 Wh
Micro-Inverter : 585 Wh (2:30 at 236 Wh) injected in the grid


The micro-inverter was manually plugged during the EQ mode, after the Bulk and Absorb modes ended, getting power  that was wasted.
That's why this day, the production was so high !

Yesterday, there was more sun  and the production was just 1.8 Kwh ! 


The batteries can't absorb all the input.


Yann

Simply put:  If your SG is dropping, there is deficit charging.

day 1  SG = 1.24
day 2  SG = 1.23
day 3  SG = 1.21

this shows you are not replacing what you are taking out!

If you had a stable SG you would be replacing what you took out

Quote from: Lya72 link=topic=1012.msg7573#msg7573

QuoteHow do you know that you really had 2.4kw/hr out for yesterday, without a battery monitor...?

It's a simple addition of all loads :
Constant : 375 Wh
Inverter + NAS : 1440 Wh
Micro-Inverter : 585 Wh (2:30 at 236 Wh) injected in the grides

Yann,
You may be underestimating the load wattage
for example: How efficient are these inverters?   the micro inverter 85-90% ? 585wh probably took 650wh
And the batteries may be less efficient due to their age, sulfation etc..

In any case the calculations are not correct as the batteries are discharging every day.
Have you managed to do an EQ at 31.5v for 3 to 4 hours?

dgd

QuoteAbsorb Voltage is set at 28.6V (default value), that's the compensated temps that elevates it to 29.8V.

Set your Absorb at 29.4Vdc. 28.6V is too low!
Rather than stocking energy in your batteries to power your loads for the next three days, you're taking this energy off of your batteries to feed the grid/inverter...  :'(
Obviously, you're trying to use each watt that your system can produce, I'm afraid that it's not possible without monitoring and growing your PV array.
Listen to dgd and West, your batteries are only 80% efficient so you need to push 20% more amps to reach your 100% SOC.
Without a battery monitor, you're like a blind guy trying to perform in a car race...
The mistake you've made from the begining is to believe that you could monitor your system from the loc app, loc app could only monitor your classic but will never monitor your battery system. Datas from loc app are only from the Classic, you will never know anything else.
I think that you just don't understand how solar works. You need to replace all amps used and add more for battery ineffeciency.
Why don't you want to buy a cheap/simple batt monitor ???
Erik

@dgd,

The micro inverter really injects 200Wh (measured with a wattmeter) and takes 236Wh from the batteries.

I Will go for an EQ at 31.5V friday afternoon.

Today, with the same sun as yesterday but just one load (375 Wh), production was only 1.0Kwh.

I am questionning if an intelligent Inverter/Charger will do better than my actual setup !!

Yann

@ Erik,

three levels of battery monitors :

Midnite Solar BM              76 €
Victron BMV-602S          210 €
Pentametric (Input + Ethernet + Shunt)   400 €

The first, you must be facing it,
The second, you must have a computer connected to it,
The third seems to be accessed remotly...

Yann

and none of them are able to accurately tell you what your real state of charge is.

Quote from: dbcollen on February 19, 2013, 05:17:13 PM
and none of them are able to accurately tell you what your real state of charge is.

db;

+1

So true.

The only true way to know is to check the specific gravity. Voltage is a fair substitute between S.G. readings.

Just IMHO

Tom

Quoteand none of them are able to accurately tell you what your real state of charge is.

False, you just need to calibrate a battery monitor and match 1.265/75 specific gravity with a 100% SOC.
Better than checking SG three times a day...
Erik

I call BS on that statement Musher, it is IMPOSSIBLE for an electronic battery meter to account for all the variables involved in battery charging, even a very small error over a few months will add up and tha only way to truly tell state of charge is with a hydrometer.

Actually, a hydrometer and a SOC meter can work very well together. As Musher points out, calibrating and matching a fully-charged battery (via specific gravity) with a meter reading at 100% SOC will give one a good reference point and enable a quick assessment of state of charge. But, as db notes, over time this alignment is going to deteriorate because of all the variables involved in charging and discharging. Re-calibrate after a few weeks, after your battery is fully charged (after gassing freely, having gone into float, resting and back at your reference SG) and you're back in business. I use a Trimetric this way and it works well in giving me an idea of where things are at without keeping a hydrometer in my hip pocket. The Trimetric documentation actually recommends this periodic 'recalibration,' as I recall.

And the variables are variable, change battery temp, and charge efficiency changes, change charge rate and it changes, change discharge rate...... ad infinitum.......

Quotechange battery temp

Battery temp sensor...

Quotecharge efficiency changes

Set it to auto, it will learn on each charge/discharge cycle...

If a 240Ah battery with a SG at 1.265 has 120Ah out, logically you should be at 50% DoD, SG 1.200, maybe you've heard about shunt?
That's said, I agree with you that a hydrometer could not be accurate to 1Ah, but IMO a BM plus 2 monthly hydrometer controls is a more practical way to monitor a system day after day. Far better than voltage reading.
Do you have a BM installed on your system?
Erik

Maybe you have heard of Peukert.... Please look that up before you make another ignorant statement like "Maybe you have heard of a shunt"  Of course you use a shunt, how else would you measure amps in/out. Battery capacity is variable depending on the RATE of charge/discharge.

I am not new to this game, I own a RE buisness and have been living off grid for 11 years.

My system uses 4 different battery monitors, 3  trimetrics, and an outback FNDC, the trimetrics monitor hydro, wind, and battery state, and the FNDC monitors the batteries as well.

what battery monitor are you using that has an "auto" setting?

My home system consists of:

40x 50w first solar fs-50 CdTe thin film panels configured 2 series, 10 parallel into a classic 250, voc 190v
1400w seasonal hydro, 340 ft head, variable flow depending on the stream. 380vac 3 ph @ 90-110hz
10 ft "otherpower" wind turbine
12x evergreen es195 panels configured 4s, 3p voc 131v into a flexmax 80
1100 ah @ 48v battery bank
2 VFX3648 inverters "classic stacked" with an X240 autotransformer for 30a @ 240v
8Kva Isuzu 1800rpm diesel genset as backup

Dustin

"Never argue with a  fool, they just drag you down to thier level and beat you with experience"

Hi db,
Happy to know that you have a bigger than mine, you win...
Erik

Quote from: dbcollen on February 21, 2013, 10:50:04 AM
Maybe you have heard of Peukert.... Please look that up before you make another ignorant statement like "Maybe you have heard of a shunt"  Of course you use a shunt, how else would you measure amps?

Hall effect sensor?   ?.not so accurate but apparently may be what the classic uses.

Dgd

I have tried to explain it several ways, there is no "charge efficiency percent" that you can program into the trimetric or any other meter and have it be accurate because the charge efficiency is HIGHLY variable. 

I will give you some examples,

say you are just running a few lights all night and drain 100ah slowly from your battery bank, the next day your solar may need to put 120ah back in to get the batteries full. no problem, if your meter is programmed for the 120% than it will read correctly. However say the next evening you do a few loads of laundry and discharge the same 100ah, but the washing machine pulls lots more amps than the lights, so even though you pulled the same 100ah you did it at a higher rate. You may need to put back 140ah to get the battery full, or if it is an overcast day and your charge rate is lower you may need to put back 150ah to replace the 100ah you used.

What do you put in the battery monitor for charge efficiency? 120%... 140%.....150%?  a meter has its limitations. it is usefull in the short term to get an idea of state of charge, but since it is unable to accurately track charge efficiency I do not reccomend relying on one to tell state of charge.

Erik,

It is not about "winning" it is about education so people can pass on accurate information instead of recomending people rely on things that may kill thier battery bank.

I think I better jump in the middle here. Lets keep this more on topic and less personal please. I want to keep this thread going for the sake of helping Yann but if it keeps drifting this direction I may have to close it.

Ryan

Sorry Ryan, I've deleted this post.
Erik

Yann,
I was just reading back through these messages and I can't  see how the situation with your batteries was resolved. Are
they ok now and you get enough pv power to keep them charged AND power your loads?

dgd

Hi dgd,

The battery voltage always jumps too rapidly and the Classic too rapidly thinks they are full

The batteries maker wants batteries desulfate by plugging a specific device (a battery regenerator) for 100 hours, next week.
But I need to find a three-phase connection, that's not standard in our homes.

Yann

Yann,

So they think the batteries need desulfated?   Have you ever seen those high frequency battery conditioners? They are usually
available at an electronics store or battery suppliers. They are supposed to 'recover' sulfated batteries and sometimes do a good
job. Usually about $50 to $80 and work 6v or 12V. Won't work on damaged battery where plates have corroded away.

dgd