I know the manual says 100 feet is the limit for the remote display:
QuoteSince the Classic transmits power and data signals through the phone
cable to the MNGP the length of the cable is limited to 100ft.
Unfortunately the conduit to the house is about 140' long. We've run CAT5e cable I bought on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001TBXSYO) and I'm wondering if I can improve my chances to get the power up to the house by taking advantage of the extra two wires that I have available. If you think this might help, can you please tell me the pinout of the MNGP connector so that we can double up the power wires.
Hey, if it works you might sell another display!
TIA! Reg
I will test this configuration as soon as a get a pair of minutes and can unspool 2-300 ft of cat 5 maybe today while I watch my Classic absorb.
Thanks, Ryan!
it would seem to me that having another wire pair paralleled would cut the resistance in half and would double the distance, but you might want to ask them what, in their opinion, limited the spec to 100ft or was it just a case of not being tested any further?
Ok I tried 200 ft of cable this AM and I did get resets occasionally indicating that it was experiencing voltage drop. If it is voltage drop doubling the conductors should double the distance. I have 2 things I am trying in the morning one being the paralleling of the power leads at 200ft. The second one is I am building a power supply that will power the MNGP from ac power. The second may take our distance out to a large number and I will test that as well. Stay tuned for results tomorrow.
Thanks for the testing and the update, Ryan!
Just so I understand: Today's testing was with a standard CAT5e cable with nothing put in parallel, correct? Tomorrow, you will try the idea of using pairs of wires for power and ground plus test with a good supply at the remote end?
Thanks again!
Correct I am building the power over Classic network adapter now. Here is a picture of prototype 1
[attachment deleted by admin]
be aware that the extra connection points being introduced by the adapters will increase the resistance of the overall circuit somewhat even with 1 wire being used as well as for the 2 wires paralleled and may depend on how good the chinese made those adapters too. if you use a phone on them and wiggle them slightly and wind up with static in the receiver then it is a poor connection and will likely do the same to the classic. it may suffice in general as a rough testing for the 2 wires paralleled though.
Early results are in. I tried prototype 1 and it was to small of a wall wart. So we have prototype 2 it has a wall wart that is 9vdc 400ma this works great. I tested multiple configurations so far they have all used the MidNite Power of Classic Network Adapter prototype 2 (MNPCNA).
Test 1 200ft of cat5 without the MNPCNA the MNGP works pretty good I got a couple resets and when the back light is as bright as it goes and I hit play on audio it goes blank but does not reset so 200ft is to long with 6 strands of cat5
Test 2 200ft of cat5 with the MNPCNA the MNGP works perfect
Test 3 600ft of cat5 without the MNPCNA the MNGP has a hard time coming to life and will not work
Test 4 600ft of cat5 with the MNPCNA the MNGP works perfect
Conclusion of this AM's testing is that I need volunteers to help me clean up 600ft of cat5 cable that is running all over my garage ;D ;D
I will test the paralleled conductors for power and see if that makes it stable at 200 and 600 I intend to run the 600ft version here for a day or so before I give the PCNA the green light and I will need to spool out more cat5 to see if it will go to 1000ft or maybe 800ft?
Thanks for the update, Ryan! That sounds very promising!
I'd offer to help clean up your lab, but my arms aren't quite long enough! ;)
make some antennas out of it. 8)
Ryan, can you please let me know which pins are power and ground? I'm ready to wire this up now and I would like to double up the conductors on those two pins. TIA!
Quote from: niel on March 02, 2011, 07:26:40 PM
make some antennas out of it. 8)
Receiver antenna only, please !! :)
BTW, Somewhere here I thought I had posted a link to the pinouts of those connectors.
boB
Yes, here is a link to the discussion...
http://midnitesolar.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=137.msg828#msg828
And, Here is a PDF of the pinouts of the 3 RS232 comm jacks (as seen from the top of the board)...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641463/ClassicCommJacks_Rev-.pdf
boB (again)
Thanks, Bob!
That's just what I need! I'll give it a try and I will let you know how things go.
Reg
O.K. I doubled up the wires on +9V and GND and the MNGP works just fine up in the house, 167 wire feet from the Classic 200! Thanks for the assistance, Ryan and boB!
Just a couple of more details on what I did, in case anyone is interested:
In the house, I put an RJ11 Jack which uses a punch-down tool to insert the wires. This is, by far, the recommended approach here. It was fairly straightforward to punch down two wires into a single slot with any risk of a short circuit. With this jack I can simply connect the display using a short patch cable.
In the equipment shed, I crimped a 6-pin RJ11 plug onto the end of the Cat5e cable. While I had "success", I would NOT recommend doing this. What I did was I stripped the insulation off two pairs of wires and twisted the bare ends around each other and inserted them into the plug as if they were a single wire. There are a bunch of problems with this approach with the worst one being that it would be VERY easy to create a short inside the connector which could potentially cause a malfunction in or even possibly damage to your Classic controller. The other problem is that the shielded Cat5e cable will not fit into the RJ11 plug, so there is no strain relief for the small wires inside. Since there is a box about 8 feet from the Classic, I will likely cut the cable in the box and put another punch-down jack in there and run a short patch cable from the Classic to the jack to make the final connection.
As far as wiring goes, I chose to not twist anything around power or ground, instead using a twisted pair each for +9V and GND. FWIW, here is how I wired up the connectors from top to bottom in boB's diagram:
LED: White with brown stripe
+9V: Orange PLUS White with orange stripe
RX: Blue
TX: White with blue stripe
GND: Green PLUS White with green stripe
LED: Brown
If anyone sees a better way to wire this up instead of using a punch-down jack, I'm all ears. That one suits me OK since it is fairly straightforward and seems to have a high probability of success but perhaps there are other ways?
i reg,
i can understand stripping the pair so the diameter won't wind up being too big into the slot, but if they are at the right point they would fit as one would be on top of the other. i know keeping them together was the problem. i should also mention that in doing a few cables for myself that it was not necessary to strip any wires as it self tapped upon compression so those doubled up wires should not pose a possible short to the other wire leads even if you had stripped the doubled leads as the others should stay fully insulated into the connector.
Hi Niel,
I'm not sure I'm following you, so let me retrace a little to ensure we are on the same page:
For the jacks where I punched down the wires I did NOT strip the wires, as you say. In that case I agree there is little concern.
It was inside the clear RJ11 plug end where I felt I needed to strip the wires. There were two main reasons why I stripped them: 1) I wanted to make sure that BOTH wires were carrying current, since that is the main objective here and 2) So that both of them would fit into the same rounded slot.
If we are both talking about pushing the wires into a clear RJ11 plug, I'm interested to learn how you can get two wires to slide into the same position. It sounds like you are managing to get them on top of each other as you slide the wires into the plug, but I'm not sure I could ever get them to go in that way!
In the end, you still end up with the problem of the strain relief portion of the RJ11 plug being too small to accept the sheathing from the Cat5e cable. I suppose it may be possible to trim it just enough with a knife to make it fit, but, again, that would be a challenge.
In any case, please explain further, because I would love to learn more about what can be done with these things!
Thanks!
Reg
reg,
gee, i thought you said you did get both into 1 slot when you stripped them and twisted them together or did i interpret that wrong? as to strain relief, the wires into the slots hold it mostly imho. i guess you could reinforce the back portion with say a few plastic strips and the place some heat shrink tubing over it all. could be tricky getting that just right though. even if we crossed wires somewhere (pun intended) at least you have it working at that distance. if you think the end will be abused by lots of plugging in and out then the small double outlet will work so that only the smaller length will take the abuse.
Quote from: niel on March 27, 2011, 09:01:07 PM
reg,
gee, i thought you said you did get both into 1 slot when you stripped them and twisted them together or did i interpret that wrong?
I did, but not with the insulation on them!
Quote from: niel on March 27, 2011, 09:01:07 PMas to strain relief, the wires into the slots hold it mostly imho. i guess you could reinforce the back portion with say a few plastic strips and the place some heat shrink tubing over it all. could be tricky getting that just right though. even if we crossed wires somewhere (pun intended) at least you have it working at that distance. if you think the end will be abused by lots of plugging in and out then the small double outlet will work so that only the smaller length will take the abuse.
I HOPE there is not a lot of further plugging and unplugging inside the Classic! It would be nice to wrap this up someday! :)
Quote from: RegGuheert on March 01, 2011, 06:36:49 AMHey, if it works you might sell another display!
At this point it looks as if the owner WILL be interested in purchasing another display. While I see that you list a display for sale, it does not show any sort of mounting structure for it. Perhaps both the dummy panel and the MNGP come with some sort of mounting kit? If not, will you be offering one for sale soon?
Finally, I have some concerns about lightning protection for the RS-232 wire going up to the house. I have some professional experience with this issue in my past and know that serial ports can be destroyed by currents induced on these wires by nearby lightning strikes. So I am wondering if there is some sort of surge suppression built in to the Classic controller board and/or the MNGP. If not, is there a standard product of some sorts that can be plugged inline with these things to protect them, given that they use a custom pinout? Any thoughts or experience in this area would be appreciated!
TIA!
Reg
The remote display is the same as the one in the Classic it is designed to be flush mounted with 4 screws one in each corner. I will let boB answer the RS-232 questions.
So it sounds like the front cover slides off and then you can screw it to the wall. Great!
Thanks!
Reg
Quote from: RegGuheert on March 28, 2011, 10:58:50 AM
So it sounds like the front cover slides off and then you can screw it to the wall. Great!
Thanks!
Reg
Sounds like we need an FAQ and a drawing to go with it.
You do have to make a hole for the RJ11 jack to stick through though, I would think.
boB
I know this is very old but I want install a second MNGP about 400 feet from the Classic.
The links to the wiring diagrams are broken, is it possible to obtain the info needed to add a remote power supply?
Merry Christmas
Thanks