Beta KIDs

[dgd]

What flavor of serial data do they serve up?  (ie what protocol?)

Or does the KID have internal Modbus registers so that serial port modbus commands can extract data?
..and an AUX port 

dgd

[Halfcrazy]

It does have an Aux output/Input but it does not have Modbus

Ryan

[ClassicCrazy]

I would like to get comments on using a Kid to keep a 12 volt battery charged from the main 24 volt system.  The alternatives to get 12 volts are to have separate panels feeding the Kid, to have an AC power supply run from the main inverter make 12v, or to use some kind of 24 to 12  voltage converter. 

The advantages I see to using a Kid to charge directly from a larger pack is that it may be more flexible considering setpoints. Right now I am using a smaller Morningstar MPPT sunsaver with some panels on it . I believe I at first tried to use it to charge off the 24v pack but gave up on it for some reason - either inefficiency or it made too much noise on the ham radio's.

   

[Robin]

I think there are a few guys on the forum here that are capable of making the interface and software for the KID. I would be happy to help push customers to anyone here that wants to take on the task of techie data stuff. We could do it, but I do not know if the return would justify the project? I am trying to get the engineers off their current projects and onto the inverters we have planned. That will require the entire engineering department, so anyone that wants to make a serious effort to accommodate the data/internet issue will get all the help needed from MidNite.
Robin

[zoneblue]

We do not anticipate adding Ethernet to the KID. This is a source of huge support issues. The price of the KID is low enough that support for the local app type of applications is out of the question,.

Robin, can i offer another view... These days everything talks internet, the phrase for it is 'the internet of things'. I would say that the reason for the support issues with the classics ethernet is due to the implementation more than anything.  If a 50 dollar wifi router can do it in a mature nearly "average householder proof" manner then it cant be an engineering road block per se. CAI webcontrol has a web interface, again under $50. I know this a generational thing, but internet conectivity is here to stay. New products should be forward looking.

That said....Ryan eluded to an outboard box being able to do this. I do not know if we will build this interface or if it will be a Raspberry Pie type of device or just what? ...

This is certainly a route to consider. I know you are developing more products, inverters, etc, does it make sense to equip each device with ethernet, sd cards, and all that , when a central device could manage data? At that point you end up with a blackbox /  schneider com box style of thing, that does make sense to me of course.

Based on a couple of other users experience, I havent tried to use the classic's serial port. But i certainly will do so.  There are pluses and minuses to ethernet. Isolation, easy to plural, ubitquitous. The main down side from my POV is the half watt of so that they draw.

But then the requirement becomes providing a rock solid  interconnection protocol / port for the device.  Something that works with linux. Open etc.

I suspect that only a very small percentage of people will use data logging to this level. We will make sure it is not forgotten, but that type of feature is not going to be used for the main market of the KID. Don't worry, you folks will scream at us enough that we will eventually do what you want.

Well, you asked.

[dgd]

I completely agree with ZBs posting above.. but it seems that the KID has progressed so far that retro fitting or redesigning the hw to add an ethernet port is probably not realistic.
So its the serial port and what it can provide. No modbus registers to dump     So is Mario looking at some sort of continuous data dump or possibly a command line interface with initially (hopefully) a command to dump the Input V, Battery V, Output Watts, Output amps and KWhr count for today.
Those would be enough for me, then the RPi (or whatever) can do the web interface, local app clone, data gathering for reporting junkies etc..
dgd

[Westbranch]

OK Robin said "I have heard that you will be able to put the KID in follow me mode with a Classic though. That means the hardware is capable of it. We do not anticipate adding Ethernet to the KID."

so following along with what ZB and dgd stated, a slightly different scenario to getting Kid data

will the mentioned items be available from a Kid in Follow Me mode with a Classic , through the Classic?
I have to assume this is a realistic possibility, to use access through the Classic to get at the Kids data?

[Robin]

I do not think that getting to Kid data from the Classic is possible.
The KID is an inexpensive controller. The potential profit from it is very small. Adding internet and supporting it is just out of the question. A router has nothing to do with it. The cost for Ethernet components is about $5.00 plus the real estate. We have no real estate left on the KID circuit board. The support for internet connectivity would add another full time person or two. The only way we would ever add Ethernet would be if a large potential user like a Telcom company or the military or the like requested it. We have discussed adding it. To add internet, we would have to add a dedicated circuit board for that purpose. We would have to redesign the main board and add connectors on every single KID in anticipation of selling the Ethernet board. All this stuff is very expensive to put into production. The KID will retail for $399. If we were to add the capability to upgrade to Ethernet, it would probably have to retail for $415. The Ethernet board would retail for close to $100. This would take Mario months to do. There is a good reason that there are no 30 amp Ethernet equipped charge controllers on the market. Heck, other than Morningstar's 60 amp unit, nobody does this. I still like the idea of a RPi doing all of this Ethernet stuff. We have to consider the entire picture of what percentage of KID customers would ever hook it up to the internet. That percentage is extremely small. So, let's figure out how to get this done externally. It will be important how Mario does the data output though. I will get him to chime in so you all can have a say in things. Another thing we have to consider.......If we added Ethernet to the KID and now it had a retail price of $500, that is only $200 less than the Classic Lite. The Classic Lite is in a whole different league and since it has more than twice the power, it is very hard to justify adding the expense to the KID.
   It is entirely possible that some big project will come our way that will force the issue though. We had to turn down 400 KIDS for an Australian project due to the lack of Ethernet. That is the kind of thing that may push things your way.
Thanks,
Robin

[Robin]

One other thing I would like to mention after having gone back to read some of this thread.....We will be building hundreds of KIDs per month. Maybe a thousand or two depending on how it is received in the market. The router and other devices that have Ethernet are mass produced in China by the millions. That isn't a fair fight. If we had to produce millions, things would be quite different.

[dapdan]

Midnite

I am happy with the kids as is. It would nice to see it on my power dash but that is not absolutely necessary. I would be pleased to have a rock solid mid range cc. I looked at the best offering from china the tracer from eps. The total cost of the 30a controller and optional display is $250 which is not to faroff from the street price of the kids that has its own display built in. All in all I am looking forward to receiving a beta unit or two. I am also looking forward to get a few brats as well. At the end of the day I will have a big Midnite family...kids, brats and maybeba whiskers and a fido.

Cheers...
Damani

[Halfcrazy]

I see 3 possibilities here.

1- Midnite makes a box similar to the Schneider Com box. This will likely be the way we need to go with all the new gear coming to market. If we do this that box can talk to the Kid and walla.

2- Some enterprising individual will write some code that takes say a Raspberry PI or Beagle Bone Black or what have you and get the serial data from the Kid and then offer it out as Modbus to the Local App. If said individual was to be interested we would support them 1000% and offer all the help we have including the needed info to make the Local App talk to it. The individual would then sell this device or code and profit from there work

3- We start an open source section and we all put our heads together and build the code talked about above. We would still offer all the Midnite support available to make this work.

Ryan

[tecnodave]

Robin, dapdan, and the group,

I am with dapdan on his comments, I have several Tracer units from EP Solar and although they are good there are huge shortcomings.  If you are using costco deep cycle or gel or sealed batteries ok well enough, they will work well enough but if you want T-105's or L-16's they will not top off your batteries leaving you with undercharged, sulfated cells. There are no user adjustable settings at all. User support is non existent, well they are consistent, the answer to any question is how many units do you want?  Their engineers do not even know what a RE battery is.

I did pay about $240 each with the remote display and programmer panel. It was not worth it in comparison to the $610 I paid for the Classic. The Tracers are no deal, they are very basic and a good starting point but there is a point when you will need to protect the rest of your system. My L-16 bank of 4 batteries are about $1200 at a real good deal and even better at $950 that I paid.  I bought the classic to protect my investment and free my time to do other things than tend my batteries.

I would have rather have bought kid's and have something that will last. I am only assuming that the kid will be user programmable in the same fashion as the Classic, at least able to set charge rates and voltages to suit the batteries used in PV systems.

In defense of EP Solar , they are a streetlight company, that is their focus. The Tracer was designed to power a LED streetlight from 68 volt thin film panels using 24 volt gel batteries, they do that well, but they were not designed to power houses, cabins etc. off grid.

I will be buying a kid to take to my cabin in Alaska where I am 18 miles from town and no grid in sight.  I need basic functions, lots of reliability, an active user support group and little else. If it works well I do not need to know every little detail. I'd rather be fishing.

David

[Halfcrazy]

The Kid has the same program-ability as the classic. All charging set points are infinitely adjustable.

Ryan

[tecnodave]

Ryan,

That is wonderful news, my Classic has replaced three Tracers without a problem even though I have a mixed bag of panels. I am still monitoring my system daily to recover my batteries to top condition, I can program a real charge profile for my L-16 bank thus saving me the worry of them having a short life. My system in Alaska is 500 watts with 2 paralleled 12 volt gel batteries. My worries there are the batteries freezing in the winter, I am not there for months at a time so something real reliable is a must.  I waited a year to budget the Classic and have had in use for only 6 days. I am looking forward to replacing my last Tracer with a kid.

David

[tecnodave]

Robin,

I need to update you on "there are no 30 amp cc with Ethernet"  EP Solar has designed the eTracer which does have that capability. The eTracer is similar to the Tracer in many ways in that is very basic but it now has user programmable charge rates. It is available in 20 , 30 , 45 , and 60 amp battery charge rates and 150 volts max input. Model numbers are ET2415N, ET3415N, ET4415N, and ET6415N. They have RS-232 serial, EIA-485 CAN BUS, and Ethernet ports. Their manual has large portions copied from Morningstar's manual for the TS-MPPT 45 and 60. I suspect the whole unit is a reverse engineered product.

Their MPPT sweep takes 15 seconds on the Tracer and this number is mentioned in the eTracer manual as well. I have seen this with a Snap-on MT-540 Automotive Alternator analyzer which has 8" analog voltmeter and ammeter and carbon pile load tester. I have repurposed this unit as a solar panel tester.

The prices on Amazon are not competitive compared to what you get. The ET6415N is $489, only a few bucks less than the Morningstar. I inquired about the product and got the same dismal response. 
No technical expertise, just how many units do you want. They are not concerned with the end user.

I paid about $125 more and got a much better unit in the Classic. These units are now on Amazon listed as the "Rio-Rand" at $349 for 20 amp, $399 for 30 and 45 amp and $489 for 60 amp

I hope you find this information useful

Gone fishing,   David