Report Card for Beta Units...??

[Lou]

Ryan,

The manual that was packed with the Beta Unit says 20 inch pounds on page 8. It seemed kinda high for the size of the lugs considering the DIN mounted breakers are 20 inch pounds, but I just defered to the manual over my instinct. 

Thanks for getting back to me.

[Vic]

The new MN Kid CC,  looks to be a lot of  CC for the money,  and has many,  many useful functions and features.  Many of these functions are those that many of have been asking MN to roll into a product,  and bingo,  here we are!

Have been getting ready to get ready to mount the Kid on the wall of power in the power room.

Do agree with others that two 1/2" conduit knockouts are too small in diameter,  and too few in number  for ALL of the neat functions built into the Kid.   Would bet that there are a number of folks within MidNite that may well agree.   I would be surprised that a 3/4" lock nut on a 3/4" conduit entry would fit reliably  without interference,  although,  have not pulled the Kid off of its home-brewed mount,  pulled off its back to check this detail.

Lou,  did you use a locknut (lockring)  on that 3/4" conduit entry that you mentioned?

Sure would like an additional conduit knockout on the side of the Kid,  above the Master/Slave - BTS connectors,   for ALL of the obvious reasons.  Having it be 3/4"  or better yet,  1"  would be very nice.

As noted before,  for my own systems ALWAYS use hard metal pipe -- usually EMT.   So,  the need to remove the Kid from any mounting approach can be quite difficult when dealing with non-flexible pipe.   And seems that removing the Kid from its mount might not be a rare occurrence,  in order to remove the Kid's back cover to access cables/wires,   etc.

So,  based on my limited experience trying to mount the standard  (non-Marine) Kid on a wall  with EMT conduit containing ALL of the cabling,  is a bit of a challenge.   Any folks wanting to use non-flexible conduit may well be much better served trying to use the Marine mount (although  have never seen a Kid Marine version in person).

And,  agree with the obvious limitations of needing to remove the back cover of the Kid to get at any of the wiring/cables.

Not to rag too much,  and know that the Kid is targeted at the lower feature,  lower cost market segment,   and that adding this function,  and that benefit here and there will add to the cost,  which increases direct product cost,  as well as extending design/development time.

A fan-less MidNite CC is what I have wanted for a long time,  and the Kid is a great entry into the medium range,  high performance area.

Just a quick few thoughts  from cranky Vic

[Lou]

Vic,

I did use a 3/4" lock nut with the male adapter, it cleared with no problem.

To be clear, I increased the the size of one of 1/2" knockouts on the surface mount bracket only. Once inside the surface mount bracket I ran the wire through whatever 1/2" knockout on the kid itself was convenient. Used the 1/2" plastic bushings to protect the wire at the Kid's knockouts. 

This is the kids first full day in operation and it is cranking at a steady  23 amp and 620 watts. Nice!

[Vic]

Lou,  OH,  OK,  thanks for the detail;
EDIT:  Yep,  the Male Adapter is right there in your photo.
And,    BTW,  nice clean installation! end edit -

Feel compelled to use an EMT Box Connector on the Kid itself -- continuous metal shield for the cables,  connected directly to the Kid's outside casting.   So  any locknut needs to be inside the Kid's outer metal casting.

Nice that the Kid is so well behaved,  and working hard.

Thanks,    Vic

[Robin]

We did have 20 inch pounds in the manual for a little while. I probably did that myself. 20 inch pounds will break the unit as Lou found out on #31. Lou, please send the KID back and we will fix it. The manufacturer says to torque to 5.5 inch pounds. That sounds wimpy to me, so Doug did a test using a calibrated torque screw driver. 5.5 inch pounds actually works quite well with the stranded wire he used. We should go back and test with 10AWG solid. Doug also did a bunch of other torque settings all the way up to 15. Nothing broke. We may put 7-9 inch pounds in the manual and on the labels.
Yes we will be getting labels when ETL is done. If we do not have to make any changes to the KID, then we will start the serial numbers at 001. That way we can send out a real label set to all the beta testers. There is room for a 3/4" conduit to connect to the plastic wall adapter, but not to the casting. The KID was not designed for rigid conduit so anyone that insists on using rigid is on their own. That sounds really hard to do!
The KID does run cooler than the Classic. That was by design. There are some crazy people in Australia that will be placing these out in the Outback in direct sunlight where the shade is 50 degrees C. This is why the massive heat sink. The crazy Australians were heavily involved in influencing the design of the KID. The feature set of the KID is growing every day. We haven't put the new code releases on the website because the code got too big to be updated. Mario and Andrew in France are working on a new boot loader that will allow this larger code to be uploaded. We are hoping to release new code very soon. I suspect that Mario will be releasing new features about every two weeks for the next year. We haven't even identified every single feature that is planned yet, but suffice it to say if Mario can fit a feature into the KID, it will eventually get incorporated. This is also a good time to ask for your wish list also. Just e-mail Mario@midnitesolar.com.
One cool feature that will make it into the KID soon is Bob's state of charge meter. It appears to be working, but Ryan and Bob are still working on tweaks. Bob is adding temp comp to the SOC meter too to make things more accurate.
Everyone who got a beta was supposed to get a free Whizbang Jr. and a battery temp sensor, so if you didn't get these, please e-mail bo@midnitesolar.com. He will send them out.

[Robin]

I forgot to mention one thing. We have ordered a bunch of ferrite cores for EMI testing. Using rigid conduit may not be as good as a few wraps of wire around a ferrite core. We plan on doing this testing very soon. Some of the cores are already here. This does make the conduit thing messy though.

[Vic]

Hey Robin,

Thanks for the replies,

I am NOT using Rigid Conduit.   What I am using is quite inflexible -- EMT.  This,  as you well know,  is thin walled Electrical Metallic Tubing.

The EMT runs are quite short,  about 2.5"  into a 4" X 4" cast Al box.   This has a bit of a service loop,  but is really not large enough to accommodate any very large EMI Cores.   There is EMT that comes out of that box and goes to the DC disconnects,  battery,  and a separate EMT run is for the BTS.

One of the reasons was begging for added and larger knockouts is because of the BTS RJ connector.   Usually on my personal systems,  run 1" EMT for BTSes and control cable,  because one can fish in additional BTSes,  and actually remove one,  should a BTS need replacing,  without cutting off the RJ connector,  fishing the BTS cable through smaller conduit,  and then when this BTS cable is into the CC case,  crimping on a new RJ.   This is particularly important for RJ-terminated comm cables,  at least for me.   1/2 conduit entries to the Kid  will allow fishing a single RJ connectored cable,  but with any other cables in that conduit run,  probably all other cables would have to be removed/reinstalled in order to add or subtract a comm cable or BTS,  IHVHO.

Had felt that without making the Kid casting just a bit deeper,   it would not be possible to use any standard 3/4" locknut inside the Kid.  And also realize that if the Kid's casting was any deeper  it would be expensive,  and that then probably mean the plastic wall adapter tool would need to be changed,  and then perhaps the packaging might need to change,   then the multi-pac cartons ...   and so on.

Am quite concerned with RFI Emission levels from CCs,  and have found that my standard approach is ineffective with the Classic,  which has greater emissions at 'identical' power output (within reason)  than those of the MX-60,  using the same PV array,  pipe,  cable,  Common-Mode chokes,  etc.  The most important frequencies of interest for me are the HF bands -- below 30 MHz,  where   FCC B testing just begins.

Had wanted to give the Kid emissions a quick test,  realizing that there appeared to be essentially no room in the Kid casting for anything but perhaps a capacitor or two.

There are many things that I like about the Kid -- had mentioned in another Thread that the hole in the casting for the USB connector is a very good idea,  and we users do appreciate it  ...  plus the many many other features functions and benefits of the Kid by Mario,  and company.

Thanks,   Looks like it will be a great product.     Back to work,    Vic

[Robin]

Vic, the reason for the short depth on the KID is that RV walls can be as thin as 1.5". I made the KID short enough to fit in a wall of an RV. That means there is no room for a 3/4" conduit hole. EMT will not be the normal installation for the KID. Heck, I will be surprised if most users do anything at all coming out the two conduit holes. ( I didn't, but then engineers rarely hook things up correctly). I suspect a lot of users won't even install breakers in the input and output circuits.
Ask Bob for a ferrite core when he or Mike does the EMI testing. I believe it will fit in your box. All controllers make noise. The KID won't be any better than others.  We have already had reports of people very happy that the KID doesn't interfere with radios and also that it is terrible. It all depends on your circumstances, but the cores will make a difference.

[Vic]

OK Robin,

Thanks for the perspective on why the Kid is SO slim.  I,  too,  was more so as a kid myself,   vs now.

And the ONLY reason for the two off-grid PV-powered sites here are for the LOW RF NOISE experience.   Moved out of town to leave almost all noise behind.

The investments in these sites are not too small.  SO,  any/all noise that I make is in no way trivial.

I am an engineer,  myself,  and have taken customary precaution to TRY to minimize RF noise at any reasonable cost.

All MPPT CCs make noise,  some much,  much more than others.   AND,  since these devices (for stand-alone CCs) are not AC line-connected,  FCC B begins at 30 MHz.   30 MHz and above is of almost NO interest to me whatsoever.   SO,  CC behavior in the lowest portions of the HF bands -- 160 & 80/75 meters is very important.   The good thing is,  that 160 Meters is almost exclusively a night-time band.   80/75 M are more morning/late afternoon bands.

That is all,  always looking for the lowest noise vs CC features/functionality,  but often am quite willing to trade-off low noise for fewer functions.

I am quite surprised just how quiet your venerable MX-60 is --  about 15 or more Db quiet than most anything that is current generation.

Am yammering,  and realize that running metal pipe into and out of off-grid hardware may not be the custom,   but it is done here for a very good reason.

Thanks,   Good Luck with the Kid.      Vic    K6IC

[RoverLuke]

[Eagerly awaited] Beta Kid #64 arrived last week, and I have had fun tinkering with it. Haven't had the opportunity to fetch some test modules and batteries from my shop so have had it hooked up to a DeWalt drill battery for power.

First impressions are very good.

This unit just feels like a a high quality device, and I like the heavy build. I'm not likely to ever use these guys in a marine setting, so for me the white on blue LCD seems like a good choice. Easy to read under most conditions and quite bright. As others have mentioned, a backlight time-out setting would be a nice feature for the future.
Moving through the various menus and settings seemed straightforward and intuitive. One issue I ran into is that in the MISC-->LED MODE menu I could not get the setting to change off of BCM mode. This seems like it might be a bug, or perhaps there just isn't yet any functionality in the other mode settings.

The only other things I would mention thus far are some minor cosmetic issues. The red plastic fuse covers seem pretty delicate and a little loose, especially the larger cover for the load/clipper fuse. I think if one were installing a Kid in cold weather you might have to be careful not to break the tabs on the cover. That being said, those fuses shouldn't have to be messed with under most situations, so maybe it isn't a real worry. Also, the rubber plug for the USB port in the casting seems so loose that I think it could fall out of its own accord. Again, not a major issue, but I thought I would mention it.

Mine came with firmware version 1704.3. I went to the web to see about updating, but could not find any links for Kid firmware under the firmware index. Am I missing something, or have the Kid firmware update links been pulled until the new bootloader is ready?

All in all I have to say this little controller is awesome! Job well done guys!
This is going to be a go-to controller for my smaller systems.

More feedback to follow when I get it running under some PV.
Thanks for the opportunity to be a Beta tester.
-Luke

[TomW]

One issue I ran into is that in the MISC-->LED MODE menu I could not get the setting to change off of BCM mode. This seems like it might be a bug, or perhaps there just isn't yet any functionality in the other mode settings.

The only other things I would mention thus far are some minor cosmetic issues. The red plastic fuse covers seem pretty delicate and a little loose, especially the larger cover for the load/clipper fuse. I think if one were installing a Kid in cold weather you might have to be careful not to break the tabs on the cover. That being said, those fuses shouldn't have to be messed with under most situations, so maybe it isn't a real worry. Also, the rubber plug for the USB port in the casting seems so loose that I think it could fall out of its own accord. Again, not a major issue, but I thought I would mention it.

Luke;

The LED mode is not in the firmware yet so it is not settable (yet).

I heard the fuse covers are on the list of things to improve.

Tom

[Vic]

I had thought that I was having some trouble navigating through menus,  but found that the Kid needs a considerable amount of force applied to the Navigation buttons,  compared to Classics ...  had thought that the button had been pressed,  but it had not been pressed hard enough.

The Kid seems to be a very capable CC,  with  many more functions than I've gotten my head around,  yet.

Looks like it will be a winner.

One thought,  regarding previous discussion on conduit passages.

Would strongly one or perhaps even two additional passages,  probably on the left side,  above the Master/Slave - BTS connectors.  It might be difficult getting the comm cable and BTS through one 1/2" passage,  and it is likely that one using the Load function could have a couple of leads in the second conduit passage already ...

Just to beat a bit on that subject.   All in all,   the Kid looks to be a great CC brining with functions,  and in typical MidNite fashion,  it will just get better and better.

Thanks!  Vic

[Vic]

Furthermore,

Yes the Kid is well calibrated.

And,  in Solar Input mode,  when this ticking begins,  it will continue for a minute or so,   then the relay clicks,  and the display goes blank -- the backlight stays on.   The battery breaker must by cycled to get out of this blank display mode.

And,  once this ticking behavior begins,  turning off the input breaker does not stop the ticking,  although turning off the PM in breaker may possibly increase the frequency of the ticking.   It sounds like Morse Code at about 12 words per minute on an old telegraph mechanical Sounder ... if one know what that sounds like.

Using a DMM on the PV In at its breaker,  the almost Voc voltage of  19.5-ish voltage does vary a few tenths of a volt,  but have never seen it down near rated Vmp.   Ta is currently 19C

EDIT:  And  at the end of this ticking event,  the relay clicks,  the backlight goes out only for about a tenth of one second,  comes back on,  and the display characters disappear ...

The ISC of the PV connected to the Kid is in a believable range,  about 9-ish A on my cheezy DMM.

Again,   FWIW,  may just be noise.       Vic

[Robin]

Vic, Mario will need to investigate the ticking. I haven't seen that, so he may want to contact you for all the particulars.
Tom in Hawaii agrees with you regarding conduit openings. I told him that  as soon as I have an unused $40,000.00 we can have a new wall mount adapter made out of aluminum that will take 3/4" EMT. Hmmmmm, I bet that a 57 T-Bird will cost about the same, so that casting will have to wait for the second spare $40K that turns up. Always wanted a 57 T-Bird!
Those red fuse covers are a real let down. I do not know if it was the casting that came in too thick or the plastic snap feature is too short. I will be asking about modifying the tool for the plastic part. If that can be done, then the covers will start to fit better. I am concerned that if the snap feature actually snaps into place, it may not want to let go again?
Mario does have the back light going off now. We took the updates off the website due to the boot loader issue. It is being worked and will be available soon.
I am sure the lock up has been fixed also. By the way, the production LCD's will not be blue. I much prefer blue, but that color is not readable in sunlight like in a boat. Production units will be green and gray. We prefer gray, but we also have a few thousand green to go through. Both are readable in sunlight.

[Halfcrazy]

Yes if the wall mount was cast (With a back on it) and possibly a double sided terminal block could go in there for access this would be a nice feature for those that want to plumb it in with conduit for RFI.

Ryan