Midnite Baby box and GFP-63 and breakers

[kd5inm]

Hi All, I'm new to the forum, I dropped by to learn a bit and show what I'm doing with my solar setup, its a work in progress but here is a link to my latest video where I talk about my latest purchase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPPKB7GCqk

I bought a BBE and GFP-63 as well as two 63 amp breakers.


kd5inm

[dgd]

You went with a Morningstar instead of a Classic?
I have seen those $20 breakers burn up under switching loads, I assume you are using the proper 150v rated breakers for battery to controller and pvs to controller. Depending on the inverter rating the MN 120, 175 and 250 amp breakers would be a much better solution.
You could fit the lot in a Midnite MNDC box for a neat looking system.

dgd

[Emma]

Hello dgd and all,
I have a Magnum 4348MS-PE Inveter (the export type), 4 pcs of 285 Watts Suntech Solar Panels and 8pcs of 200w Deka Gel batteries and I have been getting some helpful advice on how to progress with my planned installation.I intend to power the installation with Solar, Petrol Generator and from the Utility Grid. Nothing goes back to the Grid.The utility here is 240volts, 50 Hertz.

I need accessories to be able to instal everything safely by myself or by my guiding an electrician. I want to set up asystem that will allow for future expansion without throwing away any item purchased now.

I need advice as I finalise my purchase list;
1. Midnite Solar MNE175STM-240 e-panel ( Is there a version made of Aluminium that will still meet my needs,since my inverter is made of aluminium. Checked online and didnt see any matching type)
2. Midnite Solar Classic 150 MPPT Charge Controller ( Do I need two of these or one? I do plan to add more batteries in future) Or should I use the Outback type?
3. Do I need a Combiner after buying an e-panel?
4. Do I need a Mini DC disconnect? MNDC175? If yes, do I need two of them for two Charge Controllers or one will suffice?
5. Whiz Bang jnr
6. Do I need a battery capacity meter? I thought the Charge Controller displays this?
7. Magnum Advanced Remote ME-ARC50
8. Midnite Solar Breakers (Can you advise which type and quantity. I would have thought that the e-panel had tiied all these up neatly?) Do I still need to buy these?
9. Morning Star Meter Hub or better type
10. Battery Life Saver or Desulfator BLS 48BW( My batteries are more than one year old at home and unused / uncharged because of the complexity of all these requirements to do the installation right on first attempt)
11. Morning Star Meter HUB1
12. MNGP Midnite Display

Please feel free to advice as if you were handling the project. Any items to remove from the list without affaceting performance? Is there anything of importance that s missing from the list?

Thanks in advance.

[tecnodave]

Emma,

Step one!

Charge those batteries......the worst thing you can do to a battery is let it sit!    Even if you have to use a car charger on one or two at a time......get some charge in there and top them off!


Now to your questions......asnwers by number of question.

1)best choice of panel......do not know if one is made of AL......will be listed on MN website

2)again best choice.....one Classic 150 on 48 volt system can handle 3500-4500 watts of panels.....when you get to 15 panels and more consider a second Classic but you don't need it now

3)combiner is not part of an E-Panel.......but with 4 panels only.......I suggest two strings of two panels each.......I have some Suntech, they are 72 cell, what are yours.......some Suntech are 60 cell.....less voltage.....maybe marginal.....post exact type, volts @ max power for exact string configuration

4)no!  The disconnect is part of the e- panel......it is to turn the inverter off

5)WBjr and Deltec shunt.......highly recommended....the shunt does not come with the WBjr. Order it separately........the one you will need is the Deltec 500 amp / 50 millivolt

6)NO! WBjr and shunt will do this for you

7)I would purchase this with the inverter as I beleive that there are some things on the magnum inverters that can only be set with the ME-ARC-50 but for basic use?.......somebody that has a Magnum chime in on this

8)P.V. Breakers and combiner box  can save you a lot if disaster strikes:
I think you are going to grow this system so I will recommend a  midnite combiner box with capability of 6 or 8 strings with a MNEPV breaker on each string sized at 1.25 times the maximum amps those panels can put out, I think 11 or 12 amps........mine are 12 amps for two Suntech 280 watt, 72 cell poly crystal panels........but do check......Suntech does make 60 cell monocrystal as well as 72 cell poly crystal panels. Check the data for the panels that you are using and size at 1.25 times maximum current

9). For what......no the Morningstar hub only works with Morningstar........don't try to mix brands.....they don't talk the same language

10)not sure about desulfators.....I do use them but after I try charging them first

11)no use for it......only works with Morningstar

12)MNGP Display is part of a full Classic so it is included......the Classic lite lacks this and cannot be fully programmed without it or a link to a computer to do the programming with MidNite software.......
Highly Recommended........I would not be with out mine.......when disaster strikes the MNGP gives you total control of all the parameters you will need to access.......without it you need to nave network and computer to set some values.........this mounts on front of Classic but can be located remotely some hundreds of feet away with common cat-5 computer cable.

Items not needed........Morningstar hubs

Items not considered enough........circuit breakers.......p.v. side and DC side......what are you doing on the AC side of things?

LIGHTING PROTECTION!  Did you think of that?   MNSPD on the combiner box and another on the E-Panel

Is your source power 4 times 285 watts going to be enough to keep these batteries charged?
I am think you are going to grow this to more panels but what is your use for this system?

Go to midnite website and review the products especially the e-panel as to what it includes........I am pretty sure that it includes the necessary AC breakers for inverter in and out and bypass, but it does not include breakers for the charge controller........most of these E-Panels have space for 4-5 additional breakers for the Classic and other loads.......there are two types of breakers used here and they mount differently........DIN Rail...(MNEPV)......and panel mount....(MNEDC).......be sure just what will mount in the panel you buy

Rule number one in electricity.......breakers/fuses are cheap when disaster happens!


Post more data on your target uses and system goals

David

[vtmaps]

1. Midnite Solar MNE175STM-240 e-panel ( Is there a version made of Aluminium that will still meet my needs,since my inverter is made of aluminium. Checked online and didnt see any matching type)

3. Do I need a Combiner after buying an e-panel?

To emphasize and add to what tecnodave wrote: You can buy the ePanel as a kit or prewired for your particular inverter.  It would include the shunt, all breakers, bypass switch, lightning arresters, etc.  You can also buy it with a Classic charge controller included in the kit (or prewired).

About the combiner... If a combiner is not required (depends on array configuration), I recommend one anyway.  They are useful for troubleshooting and are a great place to put a lightning arrester.

If your panels are 60 cell panels, then two in series will not work well on a 48 volt battery... you need three in series.  In order to use your four panels you would have to put them all in series, but that would raise the string voltage high enough to move from a classic 150 to a classic 200.

--vtMaps

[Emma]

Thanks All,

From your advice so far I need to get;
a) Midnite Solar e-panel pre-wired for Magnum MS4348PE Inverter MNE 175STM- 240
b) WhizBang jnr plus Deltec Shunt (500Amps, 50 mV)
c) Magnum Remote ME-ARC50 (with or without shunt?)
d) Battery Life Saver BLS 48A
e) Midnite Solar PV Combiner pre-wired MNPV (Which type?)
f) Midnite Solar Surge Protector Device MNSPD-115 or 300? for AC and DC (Which type and how many?) Is this the same as the Lighting Protection device?
g) Midnite Solar Classic 150 or 200 Charge Controller or Outback Flexmax 80?
h) Breakers MNEPV and MNEDC (Which sizes?
i)

For your expert advice. Am very grateful. Feel free to advice or critique the options so I can arrive at the best solution for this installation. For the past 24 hours there has been no electricity supply from the national grid! Am running our petrol generator right now and gasoline prices are something else. The Main use of our Magnum Inverter set up is to run home  lighting, electronics, computers, one or two ceiling fans, and our fridge/freezer maybe for at least four to five hours daily because of the fridge freezer, but  we could run the lights and electronics (DVD Home theater, LED and computers for 24 hours, if we switch off the Fridge/Freezer ) We hope to revive the old Sukam as soon as what fries out the external cables is detected and solved ( to run separate from the Magnum) or sell it out and get another Magnum.

My inverter is supposed to be a backup to the grid power supply, but the grid is so bad/poor supply that the inverter will be seeing a lot of use. That is why I am incorporating solar.

..." I I have a Magnum 4348MS-PE Inveter (the export type), 4 pcs of 285 Watts Suntech Solar Panels and 8pcs of 200w Deka Gel batteries and I have been getting some helpful advice on how to progress with my planned installation.I intend to power the installation with Solar, Petrol Generator and from the Utility Grid. Nothing goes back to the Grid.The utility here is 240volts, 50 Hertz.

I need accessories to be able to install everything safely by myself or by my guiding an electrician. I want to set up a system that will allow for future expansion without throwing away any item purchased now, later on.

My Suntech Panels' specs are;
Suntech Panels (4 panels)
"Pmax 285watts
Ioc.          8.37A
Voc.            44.9V
I at Pmax.  8.06Amps
V at Pmax. 35.4volts
Output Tolerance. +-5%
Nominal Operating Cell Temp.  45 +- 2 degrees C
Max system voltage 1000v for IEC 600x for UL
Max series fuse rating 20A
Cell Tech is Multi-Si
For field connections, use min No 12 AWG copper wires with min 90 deg C insulation."


13. Surge Protectors. What type and rating?
14.e-panel type and backplate type to match my Inverter type?
15. Is the Outback Flexmax 80 better than the Midnite Solar Classic 150?
16. What makes sections of my older Sukam inverter  10mm sq cables to become dust/powdery? Is it poor quality cables? Is it excessive current or surge? Is it exposure to the elements of weather? I cant use it now as I think I need to change the 10mm sq cable or cut out the damaged/powdered out section.

Dave and vtmaps I appreciate your expert advice, my plan had been to have two banks of Deka 200w batteries. Each bank has four batteries connected in series to give 48 volts and 200 watts for each bank. Then I was to connect the two banks together in parallel, before connecting to the Magnum inverter. This will mean 48 volts and 400 watts going to the Inverter, ( I hope I am correct about the wattage?) 

Then on the Solar Panels side, I had planned to also have two banks with two panels each. One bank was to have two panels connected in Series to give 70.8 volts and 8.06 Amps. I had wanted to either send this direct to a Charge Controller, to power up one of the battery banks and then do the same for the other bank using another Charge Controller, but it seems the current 8.06 Amps is small, right? And this will require two Charge Controllers.

The other option on the Solar side was to have two banks with two panels each. One bank was to have two panels connected in Series to give 70.8 volts and 8.06 Amps, then I would then parallel the two Solar Panel banks to get 70.8 volts and 16.12 Amps, send this to one Charge Controller...BUT how do you send this to the batteries since there are two banks of batteries?!

If I am to place three solar panels in series, it means i have to consider getting two more solar panels.Wow! Is this the only way out? Not sure if they are 60 cell or 72 cell panels.

thanks in anticipation of your professional advice.

[dgd]

a) Midnite Solar e-panel pre-wired for Magnum MS4348PE Inverter MNE 175STM- 240
b) WhizBang jnr plus Deltec Shunt (500Amps, 50 mV)
c) Magnum Remote ME-ARC50 (with or without shunt?)

The Epanel comes with a Deltec shunt already installed. You don't need another.

g) Midnite Solar Classic 150 or 200 Charge Controller or Outback Flexmax 80?

The specs for the solar panels show they are 72 cell types.
A classic 150 would be good for these wired two in series to give 71volts and the two series strings in parallel. If you get another two of these then three in series in each string.

h) Breakers MNEPV and MNEDC (Which sizes?

a 100amp breaker in epanel for Classic 150, surface mount type (just my preference!)

My Suntech Panels' specs are;
Suntech Panels (4 panels)
"Pmax 285watts
Ioc.          8.37A
Voc.            44.9V
I at Pmax.  8.06Amps
V at Pmax. 35.4volts

15. Is the Outback Flexmax 80 better than the Midnite Solar Classic 150?

You are asking this question in a Midnite forum?

Dave and vtmaps I appreciate your expert advice, my plan had been to have two banks of Deka 200w batteries. Each bank has four batteries connected in series to give 48 volts and 200 watts for each bank. Then I was to connect the two banks together in parallel, before connecting to the Magnum inverter. This will mean 48 volts and 400 watts going to the Inverter, ( I hope I am correct about the wattage?)

That is not a good battery configuration. I assume you mean 12 volt 200Ah batteries  (what are the model numbers?)
Much better is just one string of batteries NOT parallel strings. You could achieve the same capacity with eight 6volt L16 400Ah types.

Then on the Solar Panels side, I had planned to also have two banks with two panels each. One bank was to have two panels connected in Series to give 70.8 volts and 8.06 Amps. I had wanted to either send this direct to a Charge Controller, to power up one of the battery banks and then do the same for the other bank using another Charge Controller, but it seems the current 8.06 Amps is small, right? And this will require two Charge Controllers.

see above on battery string.  If you do end up with parallel strings of batteries then these (via Epanel) connect to the charge controller. You do not need separate controllers for each string.

The other option on the Solar side was to have two banks with two panels each. One bank was to have two panels connected in Series to give 70.8 volts and 8.06 Amps, then I would then parallel the two Solar Panel banks to get 70.8 volts and 16.12 Amps, send this to one Charge Controller...BUT how do you send this to the batteries since there are two banks of batteries?!

The two banks are wired together in parallel. But don't do this - get one string of batteries

dgd

[vtmaps]

and 8pcs of 200w Deka Gel batteries

Not much left to say after dgd's post (I agree with it).  Since you already have the batteries, you may have to live with them (even though a single string would be a better design).

MOST gel batteries are NOT suitable for solar applications for several reasons.  There are exceptions... I don't know enough about your batteries to say if they are suitable.  I have no idea what you mean when you write "200 watt" battery. 

The Main use of our Magnum Inverter set up is to run home  lighting, electronics, computers, one or two ceiling fans, and our fridge/freezer maybe for at least four to five hours daily because of the fridge freezer, but  we could run the lights and electronics (DVD Home theater, LED and computers for 24 hours, if we switch off the Fridge/Freezer )

Selecting the battery is the most difficult part of designing an off-grid system.  You must first know your loads... the loads will determine the necessary capacity of the battery.  You should get a kill-a-watt meter (do they make a 230 volt version?) or equivalent and come up with a number of kilowattHours per day that you need. 

Assuming that your batteries are 200 ah, my best guess is that four of those panels will not be enough to run the loads AND charge those batteries every day.... it's really just a guess because I don't know your exact loads and I do not know your location or climate (solar resources). 

By the way, if you don't have a number on your daily loads, then you are also just guessing on your system design.  You have mentioned several times that you might want to expand the system... You may be surprised at how difficult that is.  It would be a good idea to know where you want to go with the system... you may lay it out differently with wiring and conduit for the larger system, leave room on wall for a second inverter or charge controller, more batteries, etc.

--vtMaps

[tecnodave]

Emma,

Your weakness will be the battery setup you have chosen........I am thinking that you will not have enough battery to run a whole household.

These might be 200 amp/hour.......not 200 watts......

Parallel strings are not a good idea.

Flooded lead acid batteries are still the best power for the dollar........large format is best for solar and other renewable energy use. My personal choice is the L-16 floor scrubber batteries from Interstate
400 amp/hour at 6 volts.    Set of 8 in one series string for a 48 volt system. Second is the GC-2 format of golf cart batteries at 208-244 amp-hour

Do not even consider two charge controllers.....you are not even close to the power handling capability of one Classic 150........you can do about 12 250 watt class panels on this controller

Two panels are more a match for the Kid controller but I think the Classic will be better as I think you are going to need at least 6 of those Suntech panels to run that large of an inverter

Check your utility bill to see the total kW/h you buy from the power grid to see just how much power you really use

My battery in my iPad needs to rest so I will continue later,

td

[Emma]

TechnoDave and Vtmaps, thanks for tearing apart my planned installation and giving clear guidance. I really appreciate this!
My batteries are 8 pcs of Deka 12volts each and 200Ah each. i guess I will have to use them and plan for any change in future.But the advice is well noted.
Since I have 8 batteries, I don't understand how I can use them all in series (please correct me if I am wrong) as that will mean sending 96 volts to the 48 volts inverter. Maybe I don't get what one string or single string means? Kindly clarify.
The practice in these climes is to connect only selected loads to the inverter until the installation is upgraded incrementally to take more loads in the house. But the items I listed for loads are basic essential loads that must be on the inverter at all times.
I have included some pictures of my Inverter and batteries and the Specification Sheets for the batteries. What does the battery specs sheet mean by 225 A.H @ 20hr and 265 A.H @ 100hr?

Thanks again and enjoy your weekend.

[Westbranch]

225 AH @ 20 hr rate = 11.25Amps per hr for 20 hrs or 225 Ahrs total

265Ahr @ 100 hrs = 2.65 A for 100 hrs.

make sense?

TD was talking about a totally different battery bank he would use.

You are stuck with 2 parallel strings of 4 individual batteries at 48 volts and 225 Ahr.

hth

[Emma]

Thanks All,
For your professional advice and helping to scrutinize my planned set-up. I am learning a lot and narrowed down my list of items to what will really be needed, essential  and helpful.
Will let you know how the installation progresses.
This forum is really loaded. I appreciate the high level of altruism displayed.

[kd5inm]

Hi all, it's been a while since I posted here but I've made some changes, check out my new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COiX3XuGQE

Kd5inm