News:

To visit MidNite Solar click this link www.midnitesolar.com

Main Menu

Diversion control setup

Started by Olberg, March 13, 2016, 04:31:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Olberg

Hi
I would be grateful on any thoughts and help on my
soon to be diversion control setup for my off grid summer house system.
This first picture shows what has been working flawless for a year now:




Because of hardly any sun to speak of (I live in Sweden) in November through to January I bought a second hand wind turbine, a Classic and a Clipper which I’m about to install like so:




I like the idea of using all the incoming energy so I’m thinking of keeping my water heater as an opportunity load/dump load even though the total incoming energy could sometimes be way over the TS-60s limit.

Hugh over at
http://scoraigwind.co.uk/installing-and-configuring-a-tristar-controller-for-a-wind-system/
he states in a reply:

“You will not damage the diversion controller with overload provided
you have selected a suitable resistive diversion load whose current is
within the rating of the controller. If it cannot limit the voltage rise then
the other controller will limit it at its higher setting,
when the combined current is too much. But this will not damage the TS-60.
(It may display an error in protest.)”

I want to add that my tubine site is not that windy and that I’m still a bit nervous about this new setup because of the extra current the wind will produce.
I would very much appreciate a few second opinions.
Comments from boB or HalfCrazy with all their knowledge would make my day!

All the best
/Oliver
Sweden

dgd

An interesting system configuration.
Now that you have inserted a Classic 200 into your setup there are other possibilities...
The 3000w hy3000, if it gets some decent wind, will have a fair amount of its generated power burnt off over the Clippers resistor bank because limiting the C200's output to 60A means just 1.5Kw (@25v) max power.
The MS controller seems unnecessary. The Classic has two AUX controls and although AUX2 is used up by the Clipper Control function the AUX1 could be used, set on Diversion high, to control that ssr switching the water heating elements to the battery. The control to the SSR could go via a simple thermal switch stuck on your HWC to prevent overheating.
If you look back through the many postings in this forum about water heating and diversion methods you can get all the necessary technical info.

Just IMO, I would be looking to move to a 48V battery bank (hence getting greater use of the C200/Hy3000 combo), using a C150/Wbjr as solar controller/battery monitor/water heating diversion controller and having the Classics sync together on controlling battery charging.
Since you are familiar with Arduino then take a look at the Arduino area of this forum for some nice stuff on diversion water heating and system monitoring.

dgd
(oops just saw you really wanted boB/Halfcrazy replies so probably best to ignore this reply)
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

Westbranch

dgd broke the silence, so  you stated...This first picture shows what has been working flawless for a year now:

With 4 parallel sets of AGM batteries, how have you been monitoring each string? 

More than 2 battery strings is a sure fire way to have a system bank go off field after a while....here is a bit of reading that will explain several good ways to arrange your cells...  http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html

hth
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

dgd

#3
WB,

Now that I look at the the OPs system configuration again the use of the MS controller and that 'CAUTION' text makes no sense. These apply only when the battery charging (voltage limiting to prevent over charging) is completely controlled by the diversion controller.
However, since there are other MPPT controllers managing the battery charging then the voltage limiting function of the MS controller is not needed.
I can't see how the MS controller will divert power to the resistors (water heating elements) unless its diversion voltage is set below one of the voltage charge set points of the MPPT controller AND worse it seems from the specs of the Victron MPPT controller that these are not adjustable  :o
So has the Classic 200's set points been set to match the Victron?
Can the same voltage set points be adjusted in the MS PWM controller?

My advice is to sell the Victron MPPT controller and the MS PWM controller and invest in a second Midnite Classic   :)

dgd
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

BobWhite

Quote from: dgd on March 13, 2016, 05:11:24 PM
dgd
(oops just saw you really wanted boB/Halfcrazy replies so probably best to ignore this reply)

You guys kill me  ::), like to see what you have to say!
Walt
12-Lifeline AGM 8D's
10-Lifeline AGM GPL 31T
16- Diehard GC2
4-Classic 3-150 and 1-200
1-Classic Lite
2-BRATS
5wiz bang Jrs, , 2- Samlex-24Volt
5- 235 MX60s
10- Sharp 198
10 Solar world 345 XL Mono

mike90045

#5
You have the full capacity of the batteries feeding into the input of the TS-60.   So those amps need to have a resettable breaker before the controller, if a short developed.....

And you should have some sort of resistive ballast at the TS-60, so it's not going to try to suck a big swig of amps before the breaker can react.   Sizing the output resistive load to be less than 60A will help, but I think something to temper the battery mega amps at the input would be appropriate too.  even the resistance of a shunt, or a couple feet of 4 ga wire would be useful at those high amps
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Olberg

Thank you for all your input!
There are logical explanations for my choices (and with your help I can find out if I'm wrong):


dgd:
QuoteThe MS controller seems unnecessary. The Classic has two AUX controls and although AUX2 is used up by the Clipper Control function the AUX1 could be used, set on Diversion high, to control that ssr switching the water heating elements to the battery.

Say I remove the MS controller and use the aux1 as diversion, isn't there a possibility that the water heaters will burn when the SSR kicks in and the full power of the battery is connected? As I see it the TS-60 is highly necessary.

QuoteThe 3000w hy3000, if it gets some decent wind, will have a fair amount of its generated power burnt off over the Clippers resistor bank because limiting the C200's output to 60A means just 1.5Kw (@25v) max power.

All over 60A @ 24V It will be burnt off by the Clipper anyway 99% of the time so why let the full 110A though to batteries?
And this is my worry and my real question. Can I have that much current (win&solar) without burning the TS-60?

QuoteWith 4 parallel sets of AGM batteries, how have you been monitoring each string?

My batteries have been going stable for 6 years now. I took the time to have exactly the same length of cable (and resistance) for each string. A precautions against uneven battery loads and unbalancing that has worked up to now.


And Westbranch, please don't send any newcomers to sites like the link you gave me. It would scare the crap out of them and think that these things are more complicated than they are  ;)

dgd
QuoteVictron MPPT controller that these are not adjustable

Victron make professional gear. You can set the multistage charging to any voltages you want.

QuoteI can't see how the MS controller will divert power to the resistors (water heating elements) unless its diversion voltage is set below one of the voltage charge set points of the MPPT
Trust me. it is.

And yes I can set my TS-60 also to exact fit my voltage needs.
And yes I will set the VictronMPPT and Classic to follow the same charging curve as possible.

QuoteMy advice is to sell the Victron MPPT controller and the MS PWM controller and invest in a second Midnite Classic

I really like my new Classic and perhaps I will go down that road. As for now my Victron gear (Multi=charger+inverter, SolarMPPT & battery monitor) is hooked up to https://vrm.victronenergy.com/ so I can see exactly what is going on, even on my phone where I also can remotely control everything. I know the Classic has a similar feature but I just don't what to start changing everything at this point.

mike90045:
There are breakers and fuses for all components in the system.
QuoteAnd you should have some sort of resistive ballast at the TS-60,
No, I really don't think it works that way.
Google the TS-60 and see for yourself.


My question is really, will the TS-60A be alright if I have max solar and max wind, say 120A into the system?

This was great, thank you.
More comments are always welcome!

All the best!
/Oliver

dgd

#7
Quote from: Olberg on March 14, 2016, 04:34:50 PM

Say I remove the MS controller and use the aux1 as diversion, isn't there a possibility that the water heaters will burn when the SSR kicks in and the full power of the battery is connected? As I see it the TS-60 is highly necessary.

I don't see how the water heaters would burn. The maximum current they can draw from the battery bank, @25v, is near 64 amps
Doesn't matter how large the batteries are or what amps draw they are capable of, the heaters can only draw 64 amps.  Since the heaters are immersed in water then the water will heat preventing the heaters from burning up.
Its probably a great idea to have an 80A breaker between the battery bank and the SSR in case one of the heaters develops a fault and the current draw does go too high. This gives you a manual on/off control of heating too.
The MS PWM controller is not needed.

I would suggest using the AUX controls of the Classic 200
Move the Clipper control to AUX1 so that you can use the PWM capability of AUX2 for water heating control. The Clipper will work OK on AUX1.
Now wire AUX2 to the SSR controls. Set AUX2 to 'Waste Not Hi'
(see your Classic manual, I'm using RevG 2056, pages 38 to 45)
and set voltages as needed. This mode will maximise the diversion of power to your water heaters while allowing the normal battery charging stages.

Quote
All over 60A @ 24V It will be burnt off by the Clipper anyway 99% of the time so why let the full 110A though to batteries?

Because it is not wasting potential power burning it away on the Clipper's resistors instead of being available for charging the  battery bank or water heating.
The Clipper should be used as a safety device to keep the turbine from generating too high voltage for the Classic and NOT as a device to continually burn off excess power. Let the water heater do that then you get some use of that excess power.
Remove the current limit of 60A output from your Classic 200

Quote
Victron make professional gear. You can set the multistage charging to any voltages you want.

The specs they publish don't say that. There are fixed voltages listed for float aborb and equalise, perhaps these are defaults and the manual details how to change them.

dgd 
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

Olberg

#8
Thank you dgd.
If I will follow your recommendations will the Classic also divert excessive solarpower to the water heaters whenever the batteries are fully charged?

/Oliver

dgd

Power from the PVs will be diverted via the SSR to the water heater when the battery if full
dgd
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

Olberg

Thank you again dgd.

I will follow your suggestions .
Seems I won't be needing that TS-60 after all ;)

Something I should take into consideration when hooking the Clipper to aux1 instead of aux2?
(I didn't really understand all that boB wrote in your post on the matter)

/O