Battery tilt

Started by DEinME, July 21, 2018, 12:32:22 PM

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DEinME

My batteries will ship next week.  Eight "solar industrial" SIND 06 920 flooded lead-acid batteries at over 300 Lbs each (140+ kg). They will come on a tractor-trailer truck operated by Trojan. Depending on day and time they get here I might have lots of help plus heavy equipment to move them something over 250 meters to the basement door or I might have to use a hand truck for a fair distance. In either event there will be no lifting.

The weight would be OK on a hand truck if I can lean back to the balance point, but they'll be seriously awkward if I try to keep them more upright on the gravel surfaces.  I'm concerned about leaking electrolyte while tilted to the balance point.

Any ideas or experiences? 

While typing this, I realized that I can probably put a piece of tape over the caps' vent holes for the 10-minute journey.  I'd put a polyurethane circle directly over the hole to reduce the amount of adhesive that the electrolyte would dissolve. Problems with this idea?

I've moved other batteries, but never bigger than an L-16.

Thanks for any help or guidance.

modified this to say the batteries are NOT on a truck operated by Trojan. That's what the person at AltE store said. They are on a regular trucking company truck.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

ClassicCrazy

#1
I don't think you would have to worry about adhesive from the small vent holes in the caps since they are pretty small.  Instead of a hand truck maybe you could put some movers dollies under the batteries so you don't have to tip them so much
?  Like these https://www.harborfreight.com/30-in-x-18-in-1000-lbs-capacity-hardwood-dolly-61897.html
they say they handle 1000 pounds but would probably have to lay down plywood or boards if you have to go over gravel or dirt .

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Vic

Hi DEinME,

The main battery banks here  use a very similar battery,   by weight and dimensions:   24 3/4" tall,  315 Lbs.  The height really helps one reasonable human to have quite a lot of leverage to tilt the hand truck back to the balance point.

Have always used a hand truck to do so,   but replaced the industry-standard caps with Water Miser (tm) caps,  which have small vent holes at the top,  rather than on the sides.   Used these caps for the same reason that you stated  --  there was no spillage at all.

We needed to move one battery bank to a different part of the property,   and was able to push the hand truck up an eight foot ramp from the ground into the bed of a full size pickup,   easy,  peasy.

Hope that the ground (road ?) over which you will be moving these batteries is fairly level,   as  rough terrain,  or slopes could make for some difficulty in controlling the hand truck.

FWIW,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

DEinME

Thanks both for your replies.

The dolly could be a good idea for some places but my driveway is not groomed to a standard that would allow those little wheels to pass easily. With a heavy battery, it would be nerve-wracking. Plus there's better than 50% chance that the tractor with forks will be here, so I'd rather not purchase stuff just in case.

The driveway is not steep. In the first 100 meters it declines about 1.3 meters then over the next 100 meters it climbs those 1.3 meters again. Then there's another gentle decline then incline to the basement door. The batteries on hand-truck tires would make for some exercise but shouldn't get out of control if I can tilt to the balance point.

I have wondered recently how much distilled I'll use each quarter for this larger battery bank. Water Miser caps may be a good idea for the handling too.

Again, thanks to both of you.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

Vic

#4
Hi DEinME,

FWIW,   I have found Water Miser vent caps to be of absolutely  NO use in reducing water consumption  --  although the caps that we are using are of the short variety.   That was the only model that our suppliers offered.  One of the main battery banks here  has had WM caps since their move,  as noted above.   Ran  half of the other bank  with WMs  and the standard caps on the rest  --  no noticeable difference.   Did NOT try swapping one half for the other,  but  really have seen no difference ...

Have read,   elsewhere,   that there are three heights available,   at least as a direct order to the manufacturer.   It is possible that taller WM caps  could (possibly)  result in some reduction in water consumption.

One other thing about the WM caps here,  is,  that they seem to get plugged a bit,   and some whistle  at times during late Absorb,   and in EQ.

I DO  believe that they  will help eliminate spillage during a hand truck battery move.

Have seen reports that a number of Trojan RE and IND batteries are "reluctant gassers".    Meaning,   that  Absorb and EQ voltages may need to be at the upper range of recommended Absorb and EQ voltages,   or beyond,   with Solar charging (fewer charging hours,   verses  Grid charging).

Good Luck,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

DEinME

Thanks for your experience with the caps. Reading other reviews online I've decided not to buy any yet.

The spec sheet for these batteries says bulk or absorb charging should be at 2.4V per cell (or 14.4 for 12 volt nominal or 57.6 for 48 volt nominal). That's lower than other batteries I've seen.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

ClassicCrazy

#6
The longer water miser caps  are for bigger batteries I think because they bubble more vigorously under charge so higher height to the top cap. They don't have any different amount of catalyst in them. They do get all black grungy and plugged over time - but if you read the specs it says to not leave them closed during equalize - which is a pain to have to open them especially if you have auto equalize. I think leaving the caps closed during equalize it what plugs them up faster.  The other thing I found bad with the taller caps is that the draw tube on my battery wasn't long enough to reach the electrolyte unless they were topped off way up near the top.
These are the taller ones - they also have two other shorter sizes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Miser-Caps-Extended-Height-For-Solar-Energy-Batteries/320866528607?hash=item4ab522ad5f%3Ag%3A-UsAAOxy1VlREz5U&_sacat=0&_nkw=water+miser+caps&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0
Also make sure you push them hard to close them to make sure they snap shut tight. Another thing is you really need a flashlight to see in the cells when watering to see that the distilled water is to the top of the split rings when you have those tall caps on. An investment in one of those battery watering cans that only put in the right amount might be a good investment .

I am not convinced they are worth the money even though I used them on my last two sets of batteries. A friend had acid splattering all over the top of his cells and it was because the holes in the top of his hycrocaps were plugged and not venting right. He got new ones and all that splattering went away.

Just some things I noticed using water miser caps .   I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate. Time will tell I guess.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

mike90045

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM.....I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate.......

If they are GEL, you are up the creek, Gel batteries need a slow trickle charge.  For UPS, exit lights, that sort of thing.

If they are AGM and you are erroneously calling them Gel, call them by their right name.  AGM can be recharged fast and hard, up till a certain voltage, and then they start madly gassing, cases swell and H & O2 vent (causing an irreversable loss of capacity)

Gel is electrolyte that has silica added to make it like jello.  Fast charging causes gas pockets to form and they never go away, reducing capacity.
AGM is stuffed full of fiber glass mat material, and then liquid acid is added.  The glass keeps the liquid from flowing out of a cracked case, but charging, gasses can vent to the top of the case where some re-combiner catalyst drips it back down as water.
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

DEinME

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM
The longer water miser caps  are for bigger batteries I think because they bubble more vigorously under charge so higher height to the top cap. They don't have any different amount of catalyst in them. . . .
I've read that Water Miser caps have plastic beads in them, not strictly "catalyst", mostly to keep liquid acid from splashing out from bubbles popping. Hydro Caps have metal catalyst in them to recombine H2 and O.

I am curious to see how much these batteries bubble. There will be more volume and plate area in the much larger 48V system, but the charge voltage of 57.6 is far lower voltage per cell.

Is the lower charge voltage how Trojan achieves (or claims) over 3,500 cycles to 50% DOD?
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

ClassicCrazy

Quote from: mike90045 on July 23, 2018, 01:15:55 AM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM.....I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate.......

If they are GEL, you are up the creek, Gel batteries need a slow trickle charge.  For UPS, exit lights, that sort of thing.

If they are AGM and you are erroneously calling them Gel, call them by their right name.  AGM can be recharged fast and hard, up till a certain voltage, and then they start madly gassing, cases swell and H & O2 vent (causing an irreversable loss of capacity)

Gel is electrolyte that has silica added to make it like jello.  Fast charging causes gas pockets to form and they never go away, reducing capacity.
AGM is stuffed full of fiber glass mat material, and then liquid acid is added.  The glass keeps the liquid from flowing out of a cracked case, but charging, gasses can vent to the top of the case where some re-combiner catalyst drips it back down as water.

Okay they do not claim to be gel  - but when I have read up with them they share many of the same characteristics. Here is info on what I have
http://soneil.com/wp-content/uploads/Advance-Technology-Battery-Brochure.pdf
Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

mike90045

Hydro Caps:  platinum re-combiner catalyst  H / O2 gas recovery back into water.   3-5 year life
Water Miser: tiny plastic beads in a cap, designed to capture the acid mist and let it drain back into the battery.  Lifetime
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Resthome

Water Miser caps are a waste of money. They don't work !!!

IMHO save your money and invest in a good watering system for filling you batteries. Always filled to the correctly level, no spillage, no overfilling.
John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

DEinME

According to the Trojan FAQ, their batteries can tilt as far as 22 degrees. https://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/

I am frustrated right now. I ordered and paid for these batteries on June 22. That's over 6 weeks ago. Since early Thursday morning they've been about 100 miles away at an XPO Logistics terminal. They're sitting there waiting for PAF Transportation to pick them up to deliver them. According to the XPO tracking site, PAF once again didn't pick them up last night. I don't know if that's accurate or not.

In the opening of this thread I mentioned the possibility of having a tractor with forks here. It is here. I'd really like to use it and return it. I'd really like to be able to schedule activities without having to plan around an unknown delivery date that COULD be today. I'd really like to test the chargers and inverter which arrived in a damaged crate. The damage LOOKS superficial so these tests have some cliffhanger resolution for me. That also makes me wonder if PAF is not picking up the batteries because of obvious damage to the batteries. Wouldn't another 6 weeks waiting for replacement batteries be a great way to extend the suspense?

4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

ClassicCrazy

Did you try calling that transportation company ?  Maybe if you talk to someone they will understand the urgency of it.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

DEinME

I've talked to people at both companies. The story has been that moving things along is routine and the batteries will move along. Today I got an agreement from the company that's not picking up will find out why they're not picking up.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.