Midnite,
I have to share my single complaint about the classic. It is very simple. The connection terminals are to small. It takes only up to 6awg where all others take up to 4 awg. IMHO it should be taking up to 2 awg since the classic 150 model outputs up to 96Amps! Midnite what is your recommended solution to connecting a wire larger than 6awg to the classic. I was particular impressed by the method the old MX60 used to connect the wire with in the connector. It seems to be a triangular metal lug that was pulled upwards on tightening the connection screws and it easily accommodated 4awg wire. I think for me this is the single greatest failing of the classic especially when I am looking maximise amp output and the wire maybe housed in conduit and the temperature rating of the conductor becomes more crictical because cooling is now restricted.
Cheers...
Damani
Damani
The terminals will take #4. I will pass this on to Robin. I have a couple ideas to make it a little easier.
Ryan
Ryan,
With all due respect I have had problems recently trying to install one where the client had just damage an old mx and it was being fed with 4awg building wire(19 strand) and I had to cut off about 3 strand to get it inside the termnial box. I have tried installing similar wire at home and experienced the same result. If you are able to squeeze 4awg it would have to be the highly fexible type and then you would have to really compress it with a pliers and maybe the classic is laying flat on a bench when you could see exact what you are doing and can align precisely...then maybe it would go in. I just think with a controller outputing nearly 100Amp and not all controllers being able to be 3-6ft away from the controller being able to get larger sized wires installed would be a definite plus IMHO.
Cheers...
Damani
Ryan
I have to correct myself. It was not 19 strand but somewhere around 9 strands. It was English wire so it would not be exactly 4awg. It was actually 16mm^2 wire which has a diameter of 5.88mm (essentially 6mm). So when the wire is old and have a few errant strands it does not want to go into a 6-7mm diameter hole(which is the approx. diameter of the input terminal on the classic). So that is my story...and I am sticking to it.
Cheers...
Damani
Damani
Like I mentioned that could benefit from a few of us looking at it. I appreciate the feedback and assure you I have passed it on to Robin and crew.
Ryan
Evidently solid #4 wire will fit ok but stranded can be a problem.
We had to build our own TB for the Classic because the next standard size up is
somewhere around twice the size of this one.
Like Halfcrazy says, we're listening and trying to come up with a better way.
boB
Thanks boB, HC and company. Much appreciated.
My usually supplier of the Classic 150 seems to be out of stock and only have the 200. What is the possibility of me getting a couple of them directly from you like last year summer when I was in NY for 2wks. I will be in NY again in early July for 2wks this summer.
Does the E-panel usually come with a classic mounting plate so it could be installed on the side. If so I did not get one with my purchase of a Magnum E-panel and had to use a piece of plywood to mount it. My usually supplier does not sell this accessories separately.
Cheers...
Damani
Just for information, in UK, EU we use 16mm2 fine strand cable rated at 175 Amps Max very flexible and it fits the Classic terminals with out issue.
We have 2 types one from UK and one from Domestic Spain, both with very fine strands. I personally wouldnot like to see 175 amps flowing through it but on a classic maxed at 96 amps id be OK with that. This doesnt take anything away from Dapdan issue, just my 2 cents worth
Nigel,
The building wire used down here in the caribbean does not have more than 19strads. In fact as the gauge goes up the strands decrease as you probably know. We use to use UK wire but we not use NEC codes and it associated wire. English wire is still used and there are still old electricians that would have rolls of it available to them as material remaining after an old job. In any case if one checks on line the coolest equivalent gauge to 16mm^2 would be 3 awg which has a diameter of 5.83mm which is close enough to that of 16mm^2 wire at 5.88mm. The ampacity of this wire is 158A for chasis wiring and 75A for transmission. I would have to consider the transmission wire as worse case when the wires are bundled into trunking or conduit for neater installations. So one this basis I would prefer to use large wire to give me some kind of safety factor.
Cheers...
Damani
Well its a fact that the fine strands do have a smaller foot print when we hydraulically clamp our cable lugs on to the wire sizes above 16mm2
we have to use a clamp die one size smaller than the lug and wire size. For Instance if we use a 50mm2 Lug and 50mm2 Superflex cable,
we have to use a 35mm2 die to ensure a really good bond . So I expect that amp rating given by the manufacture is because there is more copper conductor in the fine strands that the cable with fewer strands. Going off topic a little put this pdf shows what I mean
http://www.prismsolar.co.uk/shop/files/InstallGallery/CableLugFabrication.pdf?1594261550 (http://www.prismsolar.co.uk/shop/files/InstallGallery/CableLugFabrication.pdf?1594261550)
Nigel,
That lug is well clamped. Is that a manual hydraulic or machine hydraulic crimper that is achieving 12 tonnes. I have seen some manual hydraulic crimping and die set for sale on line. I wondering if those set achieve this kind of hydraulic pressure. I have never read up on them. Down here once you go large than say 6awg the strands get thicker and fewer. The one I was dealing with had around 9 strands...not ideal but it was what the old electrician had installed and I wasn't about to change all of his wiring (I don't think he would have agreed to it either).
Cheers...
Damani
Damani, its manual the units are one of the very few things that are cheaper in UK than USA.... I had this convo with one of my USA friends either Vic or Larry some 2 years ago. Maybe MNS could strike a deal, mine cost me $100.... 4 years ago they are alot more expensive now,, its maybe crimped 500 lugs in that time . Good value !!!!!! For the first crimp its a 2 man job second crimp is 1 man job...............I produced the PDF because in a simple world my competitors were butchers when it came to large wire lug attachment,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they still are...
Im not
Nigel
Nigel,
This is what I currently use.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31nnDJwSieL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
The colour is different but it is identical in every other respect. I saw some to those hydraulic types on amazon ranging from $100 or so up to $1400:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Ya15oT0LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/317nnkwx9FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
Cheers...
Damani
The yellow one is the smaller version of my unit at 12 ton. Thats the 8 ton I think. Had mine 5 years still on first set of seals $100 is what they are in UK at the moment for the 12 t Model.
Amazon has a yellow that claims 16tons of pressure around the same $100, so based on your experience it seems to be a good price. The price of the green one is out of this world though ($1400 not including dies!).
Cheers...
Damani
Nigel, DD any words about this one...http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
Run Away ! Far away
Quoteany words about this one...http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
It's die are stamped with digits, but they are horribly way off. I don't think you can fit larger than #4 into it.
I eventually found via lots of message board surfing, one in Canada, via ebay, that had good reviews
Hydraulic Crimping Tool Kit 8 Ton Electric Wire Crimper , Item# 330598048548
sold by Spark EMS Inc.
Item URL:
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m516.l1123/7?euid=ff6c6615df054cd5b2d83c2ec68744a7&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330598048548%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1123
(maybe the ebay link still works)
for $65 plus shipping. Sized in metric, but worked fine.
Mine in use at : battery lugs http://tinyurl.com/LMR-BigLug (links to my facebook page on fabricating giant lugs for monster battery terminals.
(note - the bare copper lugs were just used as sacrificial test articles, they were not tinned or wired into the system. )
Mike link still works. did you see their 12 and 16T models?
How tough is it to pump? looks like short handles. 12/16T models have longer handles...
crimper worked fine on 0 wire, easy to pump till the jaw meet.
Update includes pic. Sorry but you can't get stranded #4 wire into the Classic's terminals. Shouldn't even be a point of question, can't be done reasonably without cutting off strands.
Take a look inside the terminal. The problem is really obvious:
1. The blue cover has a larger opening than the terminal so when you try to insert stranded wire it will hit the outside of the terminal and get hung up.
2. Next, if you get that far, the screw coming up from the circuit board penetrates inside the terminal and any stranded wire going in hits that too. I mean, really? Look at the picture, sorry but I used a macro setting but you can see how the screw penetrates inside of the terminal from underneath. That should not happen.
If a shroud is going to be put over the terminals then why not take the small step to at least funnel the wire and not have a blunt edge inside smaller than the shroud. If this sounds like I'm frustrated, you bet, especially since I've had to deal with #4 wire because of longer runs and have had to do this multiple times to get equipment locations figured out after function tests.
I could go on about the nearly impossible ethernet and temp sensor connectors (try to take them out once in) ...
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There are many here that have much more experience than I at installing solar hardware.
However, I've thought about the wire size considerations for CC in the past. This is usually during an install.
Most of the large CCs have busy wiring compartments. For example, the brand Schneider/Xantrex SCC-150 has about the tightest one that I've found -- it is also a POS.
There will always be tradeoffs in what one can design into a product. Allowing more room makes the product lagrer and more expensive (and larger means that it might not retrofit to replace existing CCs). As more of the functions that customers really want, like communication and field updatability are added, things can get more cramped. Another consideration may be the physical stress that cramming a large/inflexible wire onto a PC board-mounted terminal strip. There will always be limits.
Believe that when tryng to use large wire on these terminals, a bottom entry would allow easier insertion of the Vin and Vout into the C terminals.
I chose to extend the communication cables into a 4X4 inch cast AL box to allow easy connection of a computer for updating, and distribution of I/O to/from the CC.
Also, as noted before, using a very short run of 6 AWG wire into a treminal block in its own box near the CC is a good trick.
IMHO, the Classic is the only CC to choose these days for about 97% of off-grid installs. It has so many useful functions that are simply not available on other CCs, or are extra cost items on a few others. This functionality comes at the small cost of having several extra connectors in the wiring compartment.
My solution, below. Have Fun, Vic
Quote from: Tinman on May 24, 2012, 01:15:19 PM
If this sounds like I'm frustrated, you bet, especially since I've had to deal with #4 wire because of longer runs and have had to do this multiple times to get equipment locations figured out after function tests.
Tinman, we are working on making this work better for #4 wire. It is definitely a tight fit.
Having said that, it can be done. I will let Robin respond to that part.
Regarding long runs. Where is your circuit breaker ?? There should not be one long run of
#4 wire. There must be a shorter piece of wire from the terminal block to the circuity breaker
and/or the other terminal blocks in your balance of systems box.
As for the temp sensor and ethernet connectors, we totally agree the tab should
be on the top. We have been working to find a suitable replacement for these
but would require a redesign of the PCB because there the proper connectors
don't exist that can keep the PCB layout the same. We are still looking into this
though. Eventually we will get that fixed.
Thanks and sorry for the inconveniences and compromises.
The tight terminal block is definitely a compromise. The next size
up won't fit at all but there are things we are doing, especially to
the shroud that should help take care of this tight fit.
boB
TinMan
The box lug in the terminal block is designed for #14 - #4. The issue I see is the blue shroud hides it and makes it VERY hard to access. I have some ideas on making this better. Here is a picture of my crude prototype.
On the temperature jack that has been fixed since around serial#2400 the Ethernet is another issue they just do not seem to make jacks that are backwards? We are looking at removing some circuit board on the next revision to make it easier to get at? We never assumed people would unplug these things that often.
Ryan
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Quote from: Halfcrazy on May 24, 2012, 02:13:57 PM
On the temperature jack that has been fixed since around serial#2400 the Ethernet is another issue they just do not seem to make jacks that are backwards?
Ryan
They do make jacks that are backwards... Just none (so far as I've seen) jacks that will work on the existing PCB and they are quite a bit more expensive.
boB
I have a 35 foot run from array to combiner and 13 feet then to controller. Those aren't numbers I can change. From controller to batteries it is 15 feet and I use 1/0 wire for that. 2 arrays and each home runs to combined.
The wire needs to be very flexible, just the way it is.
Were it not for that screw penetrating inside the terminal the problem would be manageable. As it is, virtually impossible to get #4 stranded wire in without clipping strands or having the wire hot the edge of the terminal and the that screw sticking up inside of the terminal. Why the screw has to go through into the terminal hole isn't something that makes sense. Solution? Shorter screw since any threads beyond the terminal do nothing.
As for getting #4 stranded (fine stranded) wire in, I'd like to see it done in some manner other than a test bench or wide open space. Post a video? Kidding of course.
The reason for going through this is simple. The application isn't a room but mobile and things sometimes need testing. I have to get very creative on where things go so it takes a bit.
A solution is a change to the blue shroud. Funnel the wire. In any case, at least don't make the shroud opening larger than the opening on the terminal. If it was the same diameter then once you get the wire into the shroud at least it would then pass into the terminal opening without getting all jumbled up.
It is a small thing to be sure but when you are working at arms length, the vocabulary becomes colorful real fast.
On the Ethernet, why not use connectors that plug in from the front? Plenty of room and almost every piece of equipment using Ethernet has that configuration. Billions of connections in data centers can't be wrong.
TinMan
#4 fine strand will be larger then say #4 THHN so this would explain part of it. Did my mod to the TB look like it would make life easier? From my field experience with #4THHN I can say I exercised a bit of my vocabulary. The opinion I had in my mind is "If I could just see the darn Box Lug" I am also looking at the screws as well and will work with the engineering dept to see what we can accomplish.
I of course welcome and value your input on making this better as well as everyone else. Feel free to make as many suggestions as you can think of and I will explore all and we will make this TB work better.
The Temp sens jack has been turned straight up but the Ethernet does not have the room for that where it is at it is actually pretty close if I remember correctly. Somewhere I have some pics of the Classic cut in half showing the space.
Ryan
Quote from: Tinman on May 24, 2012, 05:59:42 PM
...... From controller to batteries it is 15 feet and I use 1/0 wire for that. 2 arrays and each home runs to combined.......
Were it not for that screw penetrating inside the terminal the problem would be manageable.....
On the Ethernet, why not use connectors that plug in from the front? Plenty of room and almost every piece of equipment using Ethernet has that configuration. Billions of connections in data centers can't be wrong.
Do you have a PV disconnect switch or breaker and battery breaker ?
If the screw is actually poking into where the wire goes in that terminal, maybe that terminal block was a one off fluke ??
As for a top-load ethernet jack, I think we talked about that and concluded that the top cover would not go on very well
with the cable in there and bending over ?
I would rather just change it over to a tab on top jack. We'll get there I hope.
boB
Tinman,
Fine stranded wire can be difficult to manage, as it is a bit larger diameter than THHN, and the conductors have very little rigidity compared to THHN. This can make it difficult to use. In addition, believe that it has a much greater tendancy terminla screw torque to become loose over time when used in compression terminals.
If you could possibly use short pieces of THHN building wire into a small box that contains a splice block similar to this you may have an easier time:
http://www.solar-electric.com/16220-2.html
You might be able to use #4 AWG THHN ... perhaps if you could cut this wire at a bit of an angle, such that the longer strands help guide the rest of the strands into the terminal. It helps a lot, if each time that one of these connections is placed into the terminals, that the wire has never been used in a terminal previously, ie a virgin portion of the wire is used. The mashing of the strands from a previous comression can make the wires almost impossible to get into the terminal.
You probably know this, or know that I am full of it, but ...
Using #6 AWG makes all of this much simpler. Good Luck, Vic
On the terminal issue, the placement of the terminal block on the Classic is also less effective than on the MX60 -- it is not lining up with the knockout so you have to bend the conductor inside the small space towards the font to line it up. I use #4 stranded, but it was a lot of sweat to field wire it.
And, Ryan,
You were really asking Tm the question about the shroud surgery ... but looks to me that this would make things much easier for those in his situation -- can't hurt. Vic
Quote from: Vic on May 24, 2012, 09:19:02 PM
Tinman,
Fine stranded wire can be difficult to manage, as it is a bit larger diameter than THHN, and the conductors have very little rigidity compared to THHN. This can make it difficult to use.
Fine stranded #4 wire is electrically 4 AWG but is physically more like #3 or #3 1/2 gauge wire. That's why it can break off
fine strands. The conductive part of the TB itself is UL rated for #14 to #4 wire.
#4 THHN wire fits just fine in the TB. It's a bit tight, but I could insert it just fine here. Also our pre-wired E-panel department does this every day.
As for the screw getting in the way, yes it may give you a problem with fine stranded #4 wire but the screw does not enter into the inside #4 circle of the conductive TB hole itself. That part is not going to get any larger.
BUT, the terminal block plastic part can be slightly modified to take care of the problem where the #4 wire hits the outside front of the conductive part of the terminal block and this is what is being fixed right now.
There must be a PV disconnect between the combiner and controller. That is where one can use the proper #4 wire to go into the TB for the short run to the controller. There will usually also be a negative bus TB for the negative wire as well.
But still, we are working on the TB for the wire to be more easily inserted without hitting the metal conductive TB piece. That should improve things a lot.
boB
Ryan,
This block looks good. Make it flush with centerline of bottom knockout. I addressed TB issue early on - last June or July. I am glad Midnite is looking into this.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on May 24, 2012, 02:13:57 PM
TinMan
The box lug in the terminal block is designed for #14 - #4. The issue I see is the blue shroud hides it and makes it VERY hard to access. I have some ideas on making this better. Here is a picture of my crude prototype.
On the temperature jack that has been fixed since around serial#2400 the Ethernet is another issue they just do not seem to make jacks that are backwards? We are looking at removing some circuit board on the next revision to make it easier to get at? We never assumed people would unplug these things that often.
Ryan
Quote from: dapdan on May 20, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
Ryan,
With all due respect I have had problems recently trying to install one where the client had just damage an old mx and it was being fed with 4awg building wire(19 strand) and I had to cut off about 3 strand to get it inside the termnial box.
Is there any real downside to trimming?? I have multi-strand 75/105C 4 AWG wire with 7 bundles of TC Copper wire in it... can I safely trim off to get it to fit?? I know DC flows around the wire and not thru it..
I have 6 AWG multi-strand 75/105C wire here I am using for testing but it would be nice if I can use the 4 AWG that I bought specifically for this controller..
The run down to my battery bus board will only be about 30"..
"I know DC flows around the wire and not thru it.."
where did you get that idea from as that is not true? higher frequency ac tends to migrate to the outside areas of wires and gets more pronounced the higher up in frequency you go. the only advantage the many small strands that make up a cable being used for dc is that it is flexible and less prone to breaking. it has nothing to do with where on or in the wire the current passes as it flows in the entire cross-section of it.
I thought I read it..
So can I trim some strands off to get it in??
I really would prefer that 4 AWG to be used and my 100 amp breaker vs. the 6 AWG and 100 amp breaker (which wouldn't kick in till after the fire.. LoL)
Hi Al,
As niel mentioned, the Skin Effect describes the nature of current flow of high frequency AC. The skin depth is less, the higher the frequency. But DC currents use the entire cross-sectional area of a conductor.
As an aside, in free air, #6 AWG THHN building wire has an Ampacity of 105 Amps for ambient temps up to 30 degrees C, if that would help -- depends upon how exposed the wiring to the CC would be in your installation.
As noted by boB earlier in this thread, the output breaker is a great place to make the transition from the #4 to#6 AWG wire. If the length of #6 is short, less than about 12 inches, #6 should be fine.
Have fun, Vic
As for energy flowing around the conductor, he may be thinking of things relating to the "Poynting Vector"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting_Vector
boB
The 4 AWG issue has me miffed and I now have 4 1/2' of 4 AWG wire to use for battery leads I guess..
I changed things up today.. I got the Classic 150 mounted on the side of my combiner box using the 1" pipe nipple trick.. and mounted both to 3/4" plywood for ease of moving it..
Before mounting to wood..
(http://executiveprotectionservice.us/forums/solar/Classic150/Controller.jpg)
I changed the wire to 6 AWG to go down to my bus board for the battery bank.. I left about 3 1/2 feet of wire length but will be shortening that up upon install in the TX location.. The bus board will end up like only 12" below the classic..
I figure I won't be pushing more than 60 amps to the battery with my setup at this time..
If I add more panels I'll be doubling upto a 24v battery bank so the amps will get cut in 1/2 again anyway..
(http://executiveprotectionservice.us/forums/solar/Classic150/FinalLayOut.jpg)
The battery bus board doesn't have the Plexi cover on it in this shot.. but rest assured I put something over those bars.. and no worries the 3/0 inverter wire will be shorted from that 42" you see to as short as possible when I get setup as well.