Blank Display

[theojkett]

 
Hi all,
I purchased the Classic 150 which was part of an off-Grid package I purchase from Wholesale Solar.  It was already pre-assembled to the Magna Power Center and up until yesterday, functioned normally and fine.

I installed this system is installed on my remote home in upstate New York, which I visit twice a month, in September of 2015 and it has worked wonderfully. Operating completely on solar power is a blessing.  Of course that changed when the winter arrived and now the system shuts down when the power level drops to 60% thanks to less sunlight and colder temps.  But I would run the generator for a couple of hours and it would charge the batteries back to 100% and I'd have power back  and all would be good and the sun would do the rest.

When I arrived on Friday night, it was 11 Degrees F... and I saw that the power was off.  I went to the shed and checked the system like I always do and saw that all I was getting was a blinking "Dead Battery Charge" fault on the Magnum Control panel and only 5.6V of power.  The Midnight Classic 150 was off and showing a blank screen.  This I have never seen in all these months I've had the system.  So I started the generator, like I usually do, and figured it would charge like it normally would and I'd be good to go.  But no. Two hours later the voltage on the Control center still showed a whopping 6V and I still had a blank screen on the Classic 150.  I have now had the generator running for over 14 hours and the charge controller is still off and I have a blank screen. 

I did see that there is a small flat battery behind the display.  Does this have anything to do with the operation of the Classic?  If that battery is dead, is the whole system dead?

Mind you, I was here two weeks ago and everything worked normally. Power was on I had power in the house and all was well.  NOTHING has changed in the last two weeks.  I haven't touched a thing. 

The manual says to check the connections and check the voltage at the batteries and the CC.  I don't have a volt meter but the Control panel is telling me the batteries are now fluctuating between 6 and 7.2V.  All of the connections are fine.  Again, NOTHING has changed in the last two weeks.

The system is NOT connected to the internet and No, I have not done any firmware upgrades or changed anything.  The system is the same now as it was when I installed in back on labor day 2015.  It worked great 2 weeks ago and now it doesn't and I don't know why.

I don't know what to do.  I'm at a loss and wholesale solar isn't around on weekends to help me.  SOMEBODY HELP!!!

Ted

[Westbranch]

Big Breath needed...  did you check the electrolyte levels in all   battery cells?

Tell us more about the entire system including loads, right now we do not know anything other than you have a Classic 150 and a magnum inverter...  Solar panels?

at 60 % you are about  10% away from the target minimum DoD...   How long does it take to get to that level from arrival?

more to come, once data sent re system..

[Vic]

Hi Ted,

Welcome to the Forum.

Believe that the Classic needs about 8 volts,  or so to have enough energy to even boot-up.

The small battery in the MNGP (the display on a Standard Classic),  is there to run the time-of-day clock in the MNGP.

Some Inverter-Chargers are not able to charge   D E A D  batteries.  And at less than six volts,  your batteries are very,  very dead.  Probably damaged beyond any recovery.  And,  do not know the temperature of the battery bank,  but if they were not fairly warm,  then the batteries have probably been FROZEN to death,  as well.

We know almost nothing about your system.   What is the nominal battery voltage?

You must have left the inverter running during your recent absence,  and sometimes,  even with no other loads on the system,  but the inverter,  with very little PV input,  the inverter will run down the batteries.

You will want to get a good Mulit-Meter for that location,  and if your batteries are Flooded Lead Acid (FLA),  then you should get a Hydrometer to read the SG of each cell.

AND,  you might want to get an external battery charger,  and a few other things,  as well.

If you are handy,  you might be able to connect the PVs directly to the battery,  through  one of the circuit breakers on the system.  You will have to be the Charge Controller,  and you will want to disconnect this connection when you will not be there ...

Expect that your batteries are toast,  and trying to charge frozen batteries is a very bad idea,  and so on.

Please let us know how you are doing.

FWIW,    Good Luck,   Vic

[theojkett]

Here is the system I bought and installed.

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/1890710/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/the-homestead-2.3-kw-9-panel-astronergy-off-grid-solar-system

9 panels, 8 Rolls batteries, 48V system.

The load on the system when I am not here is a heaping 93 watts.  13 watts on an LED light on my front porch and 80 heat tape for my water line in the crawl space.

No, I have not checked the batteries electrolyte level.... didn't know I had to, but now that you mentioned that I wonder if the water in the batteries could have frozen.  I mean it was 11 Degrees (F) outside (it's a toasty 28 now). Is that possible?  If it did, would that cause the problem?

Wholesale Solar did send me this gauge scope thing that I guess is used to look inside the batteries, but honestly I don't know what the hell I'm doing and wouldn't know what I'm looking at anyway.

Instruct me.

[theojkett]

Oh... the batteries are AMG.... don't know if that makes a difference.

Please don't tell me my $3000 batteries are dead. 

[Vic]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for some added info ...

Just did a quick look at that Link,  did not see the Classic or the batteries ...

93 Watts is a reasonable load on the system,  even if it is not running 24/7,  but it might be.

And,  we do not know about how much PV energy has been produced in your absence.

When a 48 volt battery bank is taken down to about 6 volts,   the batteries have been damaged SO badly,  that the reason for this voltage reading becomes less important.

You will need to plan on buying new batteries.   And,  you will need to plan on shutting off the inverter in your absence,  IMO,  at least during the cold/cool months.  You will need to plan on learning much more about off-grid power systems,  battery tending,  battery maintenance,  and so on.

Not to be too hard on you.  Vic

[Vic]

Hi Ted,

OK,  you have AGM batteries,  this might,  possibly not be so bad when "frozen",  as Flooded batteries would be ...

BUT,  even if the AGMs were not excessively damaged by being very cold,  discharging batteries dead flat,  is very very bad for them.   Some of the cells will certainly have been discharged to 0.00 volts,  and further discharging beyond that,  "charges"  these cells in reverse.  This reverse charging just kills that cell,  and the battery that it is in.   Those cells actually forget that they ever were a battery.

I have not,  ever run or frozen any AGMs (or,  luckily any other battery),   but would expect that between the cold and having being run dead flat,  there is very little hope for them.

My opinions,    Vic

[theojkett]

I just checked the batteries and used the spectrometer.  They are all frozen solid and what little fluid I could get out of them I used and the spectrometer says that are all zero's. 

Does this mean that I have to buy new batteries?  What happens when they thaw out?  Can they be charged and will they work again?

[Vic]

Oh... the batteries are AMG.... don't know if that makes a difference   ...

Sorry Ted,   read that "AMG",  as AGM.

BUT,  if you have batteries,  with easily removable caps,  then they are FLAs  -- Flooded batteries.

Regarding the possible future use of those batteries,  we know of only two things about them, that would have KILLED them;

1.  They have been FROZEN.
2.  They have been run down to a very low State Of Charge.  If there were no DC loads on the battery,  other than the Inverter,  and the Classic,  then,  perhaps there were no cells charged in reverse.  I do not know the Low Voltage Disconnect (LVD)  that is standard for that Magnum inverter.

But,  still,   freezing a battery is sudden death on them.  As the water in the electrolyte freezes,  it expands.  This places a lot of mechanical force on the internals of the battery.   Have never frozen a battery,  but this is often said to be death for such batteries.

I would suggest that you avoid trying to do any battery charging until they have completely thawed.

It is possible that the freezing process causes the electrolyte to Stratify more than might have been the case just before the freezing process began.   So,  the SG of the electrolyte may not be zero,  but,  my opinion,  your batteries are toast.

Others might be a bit more sanguine,  but  just my opinions.
Good Luck,   Vic

[theojkett]

Thanks Vic.

The company I bought this system from never made any recommendations or comments or advised me on the proper or best place to house this system.  I even send them pictures of what I was doing and they said it was good.  So they should have advised me to NOT store the batteries where they could freeze.

I've contacted Rolls to see if this might be a warrantee thing, but I suspect the will laugh at me.

Dammit.  I spend nearly $13K on this system and now I can't use it.  S.O.B .!!!!  Shame on me, shame on them....

[Westbranch]

their ad states  'Easy-to-Install
An easy-to-install Four Star Solar Mini Magnum MS4448PAE Power Center will get your off-grid home up and running in no time! Four Star Solar has assembled your Magnum Energy MS4448PAE inverter and all of the necessary safety components, then wired and tested the whole inverter system. This saves you time and money and eliminates the risk of installing the inverter wrong or forgetting a crucial piece.'

I would interpret that to mean they have set all the charge parameters and it is ready to go as soon as the panels are in place, hooked up to their diagrams etc...

My opinion is that the charge settings may not have been properly set or as mentioned before that
the 93W (~ 2amps at 48V) should not have  killed your batteries that quickly..( ~2 weeks)

I am thinking that the CC settings are not fine tuned to your battery banks needs..

Did you ever do a commissioning charge after finishing assembly? 
Did the seller 'tell you' that the cells had been given a boost just before delivering them to you?...

[Vic]

Hi Ted,

First,  fully-charged Lead Acid batteries have a freezing temperature below zero F,  IIRC  --  there are tables for this information.

IMO,  it was most probably the loads on the system that discharged the batteries to a point that the Inverter shut off.   The inverter probably needs at least 25 watts just to run it,  with NO loads,  it might need 35 watts or so,  forget.   Then,  there are the loads.   So,  that could be about 2.5 Amp Hours removed from the battery for every hour that all of these loads ran.  With only the inverter running,  the total for 24 hours could easily be 720 Watt Hours  --  about 15 Ah for just the inverter,  every day.

Then,  batteries loose Capacity,  as the temperature decreases below 77 F.

One large unknown,  is how much PV power was produced in your absence.

Most folks who have off-grid systems in cold climates,  shut off all loads,  turn off their inverter,  and,  often change charge parameters on their CCs to just kind of Float the batteries,  at a low-ish voltage.   But,   these folks are often gone for some months during the depths of Winter.

Am not certain that your supplier knew that you planned on running the inverter during your absence,  AND there would be some AC loads on it.

Do you have the remote panel for the Magnum inverter?
What is the model number of the Surrettes?

More Later,  Thanks,   Vic

[zoneblue]

This is a sad ole storey mate. Did you install this system? Your writing points to someone not familiar enough with the maintenance requirements of this install. Usually if there is an installer involved they are sure to leave a detailed maintenance regime. If it was self installed, then that responsibility falls directly to you. And the gear manufacturers are not at all responsible.

Ouch. But again not to be too hard on you, but operating a power system does require a pretty good grasp of batteries and there ever quirky and demanding needs.

As Vic said in cold weather lead acid batteries MUST stay at high levels of charge to avoid freezing the electrolyte. This is CRITICAL. The freezing temp of the electrolyte of a fully charged battery is really hard to reach, no matter how cold. But a flat battery its just literally like water inside, goes solid at 32F. Thus as in unattended installation, leaving the inverter on in winter was just really unfortunate, and was the cause of this battery fatality. This is because in addition to the 90 watts of load on your system, you have the inverter idle, the charge controller idle, and maybe the odd other thing. Lets look at that:
- loads =93W *1/0.85 *24h = 2650Wh/d
- inverter = 25W *24h = 600Wh/d
- CC = 5W *24h= 120Wh/d
- total ~= 3400Wh/day

Thats NOT trivial, not by a long shot. Even if the sun were shining and there was no snow on the array, that system would be producing :
- North east US assumed, mid winter call it 2 effective sun hours (http://www.solar-electric.com/media/wysiwyg/Map3.gif)
- 2340Wp *0.77 *2h = 3600Wh/d

See how close that is? Wouldnt take much at all in the way of bad weather to mess with that. But then what happens if you get snow on the array, even a bit along  one  edge... panel and string design means that production plummets.... now you really have a serious production deficit, and the battery SOC drops, then it charges less efficiently because its cold.. keeps dropping until it freezes,  and the terminal voltage drops to almost zero.

Strongly advice that you head over to the NAWs forum for some upskilling before you replace that bank... and yes, it will need replacing. Consder the 3K an education. Sorry this is so blunt. Feeling your pain.

[Resthome]

Did they supply the Classic Battery Temperature Sensor and was it installed on the batteries? I doubt the Classic was configured since they sell the batteries separately.

I agree with Vic suspect it was the fact that the batteries were drained and not fully charged that made them susceptible to freezing. And if you have been using these batteries since Labor Day 2015 without checking the water levels (assuming they are Flooded batteries as there appears to be some debate about that) they could have been low on water to begin with. As Vic said the colder the batteries the less AH they will provide.

With 2.43kW of panels I would have though even with clouds you would have gotten some charging once the invertor hit the low voltage disconnect point, but most likely not enough to fully charge the battery bank. Also I think that just cuts the AC loads off you would still have the load of the invertor, Classic and any other DC loads draining the batteries after sunset for 12-14 hours this time of year.

[theojkett]

I get it guys. I need to be a bit more educated about this sort of thing.  I don't think I'm a complete idiot. I am mechanically inclined, I have to ability to build, wire and assemble.  Practical knowledge. But to make a few point in my defense....

The installation was tedious, but not complicated. The documentation was horrible at best, hence the hundreds of phone calls.  But, everything went together as it should have. I turned the system on and let it charge itself up with no loads.  I ran off of the generator for another the week after installation.  Then I connected the house to it.  AND for rest of September, October, November and most of December, those batteries never dropped below 75% worst case and that was at night. But the following day they would be back to 100% in no time.  I didn't use my generator once during that time. AND during that time I kept two lights on 24/7.   I have these panels placed where they will get direct sunlight from 11 a.m. to sundown. Then the cold weather happened.

Once the sunlight began to diminish, the system would shut down at 60%.  That's when I made even more phone calls to the place I bought the system and the knowledgeable dude on the other end.  Why is it shutting down? I'd ask.  This is why and he'd give me a short but to the point techno-babble answer.  What do I need to do to prevent it and/or prevent damage to the batteries? I'd ask.  Get more batteries and solar panels he'd say. Never once did he say "Shut off the inverter when you leave", "Shut off everything when you leave", "Keep the batteries warm". I don't want/need techno-babble, I need "Do this, do that and then do this".

I was / am a P.I.A. to these people.   I have been calling them and emailing them a few times a month during and post installation. I asked all the correct questions and even some that may seem stupid to you brainiacs.  I specifically asked if there were any settings I needed to adjust/make/check or fine tune before I put the system to work.  "No, it's already set, don't need to do anything". I asked about the storing the batteries outside. I asked about leaving on a light and more.  The only concern was the heat tape for the water line and was told it is a concern but shouldn't be a problem.

I checked the battery level when I got the batteries and two months later. Fine.  In fact even in the frozen state it appears to be fine as well (yes I know water expands).  There is a temperature sensor and it is hooked up but there is no documentation on how to use it or what I should expect.

I am just baffled how it could go so catastrophic, so fast when it was fine, seriously okay, 2 weeks ago.  I know for a fact that even when I was not here, though the temperatures were in the 20's, there was plenty of sunshine. I bought this system because of the recommendations and the EASE of installation and EASE of use.  I may have fallen short on my knowledge of what I was getting into, but I was also under informed by the really poor documentation and guy that sold me the system.

Okay, the bottom line is for the next month or two I will be operating on Generator (sadly) and when everything warms up and thaws out, I may or may not have functioning batteries, BUT in the meantime I should consider just buying new batteries (one at a time), storing them in the house in the utility room where it's heated. Move the entire inverter power center into the house and hope that the 60' from the house to the panels is not a problem. Shut everything down when I'm not here and expect to use my generator in the winter months.

Option #2:  Sell everything and move to Key West.

Thanks guys, I think I know what I need to do now.