LiFePo4 monitoring

[Offgridiot]

Hello
So, Midnite Solar doesn't have any products for accurately monitoring SOC of LiFePo4 batteries?

[boB]

The Whizbang Junior should work fine as long as the efficiency setting is correct.

I know it is accurate for lead acid and I think I heard good results for LiFePo4 as well but let's let the folks that have used it respond.  I have been working on some other things myself so am not the best to answer.

I think there are actually some posts here that talk about this.

boB

[Offgridiot]

Thank you for the reply.

Midnite's battery capacity meter certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere near what I'd be after, even if it could accept LiFePo4 batteries. I was kinda ogling the Victron Bluetooth battery monitoring systems with their clean, simplistic graphics, and hoping for something similar.

Clearly I need to do a little more research on what the whizbang jr can do. I was lead to believe that I would need one to set up current limiting on (each of?) my Classic 150s when I eventually get around to setting up my over panelling expansion plan. So, your understanding is that the W.jr can keep track of battery related stats and display them on the dashboard graphics of the 'local application' software?

[ClassicCrazy]

Thank you for the reply.

Midnite's battery capacity meter certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere near what I'd be after, even if it could accept LiFePo4 batteries. I was kinda ogling the Victron Bluetooth battery monitoring systems with their clean, simplistic graphics, and hoping for something similar.

Clearly I need to do a little more research on what the whizbang jr can do. I was lead to believe that I would need one to set up current limiting on (each of?) my Classic 150s when I eventually get around to setting up my over panelling expansion plan. So, your understanding is that the W.jr can keep track of battery related stats and display them on the dashboard graphics of the 'local application' software?

Not sure what graphics you want to see ?
The SOC is something I look at to see what it is at the moment and no graphics are needed for that.
Larry 

[ClassicCrazy]

The Whizbang SOC seems accurate for my lithium batteries. In fact I trust it much more than the batteries own bms supplied SOC. That is because the battery bms in mine don't seem to count smaller currents around half an amp. Also the battery SOC gets way off over many days of partial charging when it doesn't fill up all the way to reset.
The Whizbang doesn't have these problems. Last year which was my first year using the lithiums my batteries shut down when I went by the battery bms SOC . I found out that the Whizbang SOC was the one that was correct and that is what I trust now. The Whizbang will give me the average of all four of my batteries too.
When I posted on a solar group about the SOC on bms not being too accurate more than a few people said " so what's new ?" and that most of them get way off.
Larry

[mahendra]

Whiz Bang does a great job on lithium I have been using it for 5 years now on lithium, Additionally, it does a great job in turning off charge and discharge. Shut my inverter down a couple of times based on my low soc setting > i have it on two classics one on first generation still kicking. They are like 7 to 10 years or more years old and can't remember.
I may have to get new fans on one notice it is sounding weird lately.

[Offgridiot]

The Whizbang SOC seems accurate for my lithium batteries. In fact I trust it much more than the batteries own bms supplied SOC. That is because the battery bms in mine don't seem to count smaller currents around half an amp. Also the battery SOC gets way off over many days of partial charging when it doesn't fill up all the way to reset.
The Whizbang doesn't have these problems. Last year which was my first year using the lithiums my batteries shut down when I went by the battery bms SOC . I found out that the Whizbang SOC was the one that was correct and that is what I trust now. The Whizbang will give me the average of all four of my batteries too.
When I posted on a solar group about the SOC on bms not being too accurate more than a few people said " so what's new ?" and that most of them get way off.
Larry

Hey Larry
Maybe graphics isn't quite the right word but I just wondered about a readout to provide the current battery SOC. Historical data would also be a nice addition but not imperative. It wasn't apparent from the owners manual or website description that that info would be accessible with any of their equipment.
boB suggested the Whizbang Jr should enable this functionality, so I've been watching YouTube videos about the local application and of course he's right. It's just another example of the frustration I've been experiencing with Midnite so far. I've spent a few days wondering if I made a horrible decision to spend my money with them. The jury is still out but having helpful people such as yourselves is a big sigh of relief. Their owners manual has multiple cases of poor writing and outright mistakes that brought my (questionable) brain to a screeching halt. It seems to have been written by computer geeks, for computer geeks (the section on how I'm going to have to set up the controller to the internet so that I can interface with the local application is particularly stressful but my son (a computer engineer) should be able to help me with that). It would be nice to be able to glance at all of the data on a walk-by basis, instead of having to start my computer, open the app, log on, wait for a few ads to finish playing (okay, I know it's probably not gonna be THAT bad....

[Offgridiot]

Whiz Bang does a great job on lithium I have been using it for 5 years now on lithium, Additionally, it does a great job in turning off charge and discharge. Shut my inverter down a couple of times based on my low soc setting > i have it on two classics one on first generation still kicking. They are like 7 to 10 years or more years old and can't remember.
I may have to get new fans on one notice it is sounding weird lately.

Hey Mahendra
5 years. Awesome! Do you have them set up with the 'Follow Me' software? And do you also use the 'Local Application' for monitoring? I'm curious about the ability of the data logging to separate the specific data from each controller. My understanding (from watching YouTube videos) is that Follow Me gathers info from both, and presents the combined data (the total of the amperage from both controllers) but if I want to see the data separated, can I?
Replacing fans should be easy enough? Seems that user-friendly component swapping was one of the selling points that convinced me to go with Midnite.

[ClassicCrazy]

Whiz Bang does a great job on lithium I have been using it for 5 years now on lithium, Additionally, it does a great job in turning off charge and discharge. Shut my inverter down a couple of times based on my low soc setting > i have it on two classics one on first generation still kicking. They are like 7 to 10 years or more years old and can't remember.
I may have to get new fans on one notice it is sounding weird lately.

Hey Mahendra
5 years. Awesome! Do you have them set up with the 'Follow Me' software? And do you also use the 'Local Application' for monitoring? I'm curious about the ability of the data logging to separate the specific data from each controller. My understanding (from watching YouTube videos) is that Follow Me gathers info from both, and presents the combined data (the total of the amperage from both controllers) but if I want to see the data separated, can I?
Replacing fans should be easy enough? Seems that user-friendly component swapping was one of the selling points that convinced me to go with Midnite.

I will clarify a few things.  ( Do you have a Classic ?)
The Classic has a mode that sends data out to MyMidnite pretty much automatically . So the data goes to Midnite server and the only initial thing you need to do is set it up on the MyMidnite site which isn't too hard. From there you can see all your historical data and set up the graph to select exactly which data you want to see.
You only need to plug in a Cat5 cable in from your router to the Classics internet port.
This is the same connection needed by the other software.
One of them is the Local Status app which is from Midnite. It works real time and will also allow you to make changes to settings. No other software lets you write the changes as easily.
But that software is a bit dated and while it works okay it does have a few bugs here and there.
The platform that Local Status app was created on is dated so there is no more development of this app going on.
There is another monitoring program developed by Graham called Classic Monitoring app which is the best for displaying data and it will data log also if you leave your android device on. And as just mentioned it runs on Android phone or tablet and is a free opensource software available on the Playstore . This app will combine some data from different Classics if you want it to .
One thing to keep in mind is that the Classics internet port only lets one connection at a time - so you can't have the Local Status app and the Classic Monitoring app connect at the same time. But this doesn't affect the Mymidnite data which works a different way and will always run.
The Follow Me mode is not software , it is a setting on the Classics so that when you connect two or more of them together by cables , the lead Classic will tell the follower Classics when to go to Float .
If you read about other companies products they also have all kinds of setup frustrations , some which are a lot worse than what you will ever encounter with the Classic. I have had my Classics for many years and the firmware updates have fixed any problems and actually added new features. Bob has just been developing one specifically with features for Lithium batteries which the Classic was not originally designed for.
So you didn't waste your $$ .
Larry

[boB]

Thank you Larry !

Yes, https://mymidnite2.com/  to remotely or locally monitor your Classic.

You have to enable "Web Access" in that pesky network menu though.

boB

[mahendra]

Lots of questions here guys.
But yes to all I think .
To be accurate my classic 150 is just about 11years , my classic 200 is a year younger,
And my calb lifepo4 now with a jk BMS is just over six years and going strong thanks to the whiz bang and classic.
I did monitoring some time back and would check in now and again both on my my midnite and local status app.
They are doing a good job so no need to monitor all the time.There is that occasional shut down and restart like yearly or when values looks weird .
I have follow me set up and end amps(really great for lithium).

From experience also there need to be som frequent tweaking of the bulk/ absorb and float voltages to ensure your lithium are getting a good charge and does not overcharge or discharge during float stage .
But that's what pack BMs like the jk BMS are for.
As I pointed out some years ago I enquired from this forum and NAZ on charge profiles for lithium I took a calculated gamble(lots of research and an engineering background,no expert though)and it paid off.
I do not have the new firmware on my classic . I don't bother to try to load it either because Both my classics are second to first generation from what I know . I think I was mention that those would not be capable of accommodating the new firmware .

I might be going as a poster boy again here for shouting out the Classics but it did a good job even when there was no firmware update or readily available BMS for lithium.

I did bottom balance with no BMS during those times bought the whiz bang to help.
I mentioned before that the only thing missing from the whiz bang is individual cell monitoring but I guess that's no longer needed with all the changes to lithium in solar ,
Because of this I no longer build lithium packs for solar only car audio.

Hope this helps.
 If you need my setting I will check this tommorrow and let you know it's been so long that I set those and somewhat forgot sorry.

[Offgridiot]

Whiz Bang does a great job on lithium I have been using it for 5 years now on lithium, Additionally, it does a great job in turning off charge and discharge. Shut my inverter down a couple of times based on my low soc setting > i have it on two classics one on first generation still kicking. They are like 7 to 10 years or more years old and can't remember.
I may have to get new fans on one notice it is sounding weird lately.

Hey Mahendra
5 years. Awesome! Do you have them set up with the 'Follow Me' software? And do you also use the 'Local Application' for monitoring? I'm curious about the ability of the data logging to separate the specific data from each controller. My understanding (from watching YouTube videos) is that Follow Me gathers info from both, and presents the combined data (the total of the amperage from both controllers) but if I want to see the data separated, can I?
Replacing fans should be easy enough? Seems that user-friendly component swapping was one of the selling points that convinced me to go with Midnite.

I will clarify a few things.  ( Do you have a Classic ?)
The Classic has a mode that sends data out to MyMidnite pretty much automatically . So the data goes to Midnite server and the only initial thing you need to do is set it up on the MyMidnite site which isn't too hard. From there you can see all your historical data and set up the graph to select exactly which data you want to see.
You only need to plug in a Cat5 cable in from your router to the Classics internet port.
This is the same connection needed by the other software.
One of them is the Local Status app which is from Midnite. It works real time and will also allow you to make changes to settings. No other software lets you write the changes as easily.
But that software is a bit dated and while it works okay it does have a few bugs here and there.
The platform that Local Status app was created on is dated so there is no more development of this app going on.
There is another monitoring program developed by Graham called Classic Monitoring app which is the best for displaying data and it will data log also if you leave your android device on. And as just mentioned it runs on Android phone or tablet and is a free opensource software available on the Playstore . This app will combine some data from different Classics if you want it to .
One thing to keep in mind is that the Classics internet port only lets one connection at a time - so you can't have the Local Status app and the Classic Monitoring app connect at the same time. But this doesn't affect the Mymidnite data which works a different way and will always run.
The Follow Me mode is not software , it is a setting on the Classics so that when you connect two or more of them together by cables , the lead Classic will tell the follower Classics when to go to Float .
If you read about other companies products they also have all kinds of setup frustrations , some which are a lot worse than what you will ever encounter with the Classic. I have had my Classics for many years and the firmware updates have fixed any problems and actually added new features. Bob has just been developing one specifically with features for Lithium batteries which the Classic was not originally designed for.
So you didn't waste your $$ .
Larry

Thank you once again. Between the help you guys have graciously offered, and the YouTube videos, and re-reading parts of the manual that previously made my head spin, I'm slowly getting my head back in the game.
Last year I bought 3 Classic 150s, and hardware, and panels and batteries (LiFePo4 ready-made units) for a significant upgrade on my off grid system. In looking forward (with varying degrees of confidence) to the installation, I've been researching (aka web browsing) and have spotted some newer fancy systems that seem to display all the info I would ever want (total solar input, house loads, battery SOC, etc), on these shiny, colourful graphics screens. I guess I'm like a crow....oooh! I want the shiny thing!  It'll probably do my aging brain some good to have to add the KWh figures from 4 SCCs together. I just thought there might be a lazy man's solution the (non) problem.

I'm sure I will be downloading the 'local app' or, more likely, Graham's Classic Monitoring app, and playing with it but don't have much interest in web connectivity so now realize I don't need to concern myself with the MyMidnite stuff.

Your clarifications are greatly appreciated! I promise not to panic-sell my Classics just yet.

[Offgridiot]

Lots of questions here guys.
But yes to all I think .
To be accurate my classic 150 is just about 11years , my classic 200 is a year younger,
And my calb lifepo4 now with a jk BMS is just over six years and going strong thanks to the whiz bang and classic.
I did monitoring some time back and would check in now and again both on my my midnite and local status app.
They are doing a good job so no need to monitor all the time.There is that occasional shut down and restart like yearly or when values looks weird .
I have follow me set up and end amps(really great for lithium).

From experience also there need to be som frequent tweaking of the bulk/ absorb and float voltages to ensure your lithium are getting a good charge and does not overcharge or discharge during float stage .
But that's what pack BMs like the jk BMS are for.
As I pointed out some years ago I enquired from this forum and NAZ on charge profiles for lithium I took a calculated gamble(lots of research and an engineering background,no expert though)and it paid off.
I do not have the new firmware on my classic . I don't bother to try to load it either because Both my classics are second to first generation from what I know . I think I was mention that those would not be capable of accommodating the new firmware .

I might be going as a poster boy again here for shouting out the Classics but it did a good job even when there was no firmware update or readily available BMS for lithium.

I did bottom balance with no BMS during those times bought the whiz bang to help.
I mentioned before that the only thing missing from the whiz bang is individual cell monitoring but I guess that's no longer needed with all the changes to lithium in solar ,
Because of this I no longer build lithium packs for solar only car audio.

Hope this helps.
 If you need my setting I will check this tommorrow and let you know it's been so long that I set those and somewhat forgot sorry.

I'm interested to know more about the end amps and how you set yours up. I see a paragraph in the manual about it  but like most portions of the manual, it doesn't have much LiFePo4 specific info. Any info about the settings you settled on that you're willing to share is greatly appreciated, especially as related to the float cycle. I'm in no rush, as I'm probably a couple months away from flashing up the first classic. I've got so much work to do before then.
My batteries are from Power Queen, and the built in BMSs should protect the units from overcharge but I suppose that could lead to some nuisance shutdown scenarios.
That 'poster boy' attitude is exactly what I need from you. Don't apologize for it!

[mahendra]

So

Lots of questions here guys.
But yes to all I think .
To be accurate my classic 150 is just about 11years , my classic 200 is a year younger,
And my calb lifepo4 now with a jk BMS is just over six years and going strong thanks to the whiz bang and classic.
I did monitoring some time back and would check in now and again both on my my midnite and local status app.
They are doing a good job so no need to monitor all the time.There is that occasional shut down and restart like yearly or when values looks weird .
I have follow me set up and end amps(really great for lithium).

From experience also there need to be som frequent tweaking of the bulk/ absorb and float voltages to ensure your lithium are getting a good charge and does not overcharge or discharge during float stage .
But that's what pack BMs like the jk BMS are for.
As I pointed out some years ago I enquired from this forum and NAZ on charge profiles for lithium I took a calculated gamble(lots of research and an engineering background,no expert though)and it paid off.
I do not have the new firmware on my classic . I don't bother to try to load it either because Both my classics are second to first generation from what I know . I think I was mention that those would not be capable of accommodating the new firmware .

I might be going as a poster boy again here for shouting out the Classics but it did a good job even when there was no firmware update or readily available BMS for lithium.

I did bottom balance with no BMS during those times bought the whiz bang to help.
I mentioned before that the only thing missing from the whiz bang is individual cell monitoring but I guess that's no longer needed with all the changes to lithium in solar ,
Because of this I no longer build lithium packs for solar only car audio.

Hope this helps.
 If you need my setting I will check this tommorrow and let you know it's been so long that I set those and somewhat forgot sorry.

I'm interested to know more about the end amps and how you set yours up. I see a paragraph in the manual about it  but like most portions of the manual, it doesn't have much LiFePo4 specific info. Any info about the settings you settled on that you're willing to share is greatly appreciated, especially as related to the float cycle. I'm in no rush, as I'm probably a couple months away from flashing up the first classic. I've got so much work to do before then.
My batteries are from Power Queen, and the built in BMSs should protect the units from overcharge but I suppose that could lead to some nuisance shutdown scenarios.
That 'poster boy' attitude is exactly what I need from you. Don't apologize for it!

So your end amps can be calculated from your battery specifications most lifepo4 cells I came across is around .05c of the capacity ( in my case that works out to 9 amps from 180ah capacity 16s ).Anything above and cells can hit over voltage and pack over charge leading to battery failure or worst.

For float voltage some battery manufacturers recommend bulk equals float but that's not very practical as that can cause an over charge .Some guys here and over at NAZ forum and DIYSolar forum did extensive testing if I am correct float volts from their test works out to 3.375vdc per cell(works out to around 54vdc to 54.4 Vdc depending on brand).This is the part I think needs a bit of tweaking as I have experienced it with several batteries some of them are ;my calb,Rept,rept,eg4,fortress,lishen and some others there are so many now.

Most reputable manufacturers would have these setting in ranges for premade batteries like the eg4 and eg4 for expample if I recall correctly are 54vdc +/- 0.02 .So my take on this the float part is the most troublesome because if you don get this one exactly the battery can slowing discharge or slowing over charge.
Bms doesn't help much here.If the battery is slowing overcharging then the bms will go into alarm with out doing a good balance.The only other thing that would safe guard you is you load and the night(no charge )if your grid connected or have wind that may not be so.Sounds scary but very manageable.

Another experience is most bms have very little balancing power most I think is around 650ma if you are charging to almost full capacity which I noticed most premade (eg4/fortress etc) are doing based on their spec sheets and manuals .you will need more than 650ma balancing power . I don't have data to support but I have observed that 1a of a decent balancing  power for an average 100ah battery regardless of voltage this is why I switched to the JK bms from the 123bms the come in up to 4amps of balancing power .If you can increase that it's better but think there is also a cut off point as to how much balancing amps you can apply to your battery with causing an imbalance from too high balancing amps.

The other observation is that the added balancing amps come in nicely as the battery ages. Since I added the jK bms I notice my battery pack is always nicely balanced regardless of the load or charge I have 4amp balancing on them.

Additionally , I use the rebulk feature at a setting of 50vdc which works out to 3.125vpc.This also helps with slow dishcharge.
This is just a figure I am comfortable with however.

To close,I am yet to see how the premade batteries stand up to time particularly with handling imbalance from aging.I almost lost my pack because it a poor bms(123 smart bms) and I had no intention to continue with out a good one.

Look up on bms types as well active and passive .Active and smart is better.

Hope this answer you questions

[Offgridiot]

"So your end amps can be calculated from your battery specifications most lifepo4 cells I came across is around .05c of the capacity ( in my case that works out to 9 amps from 180ah capacity 16s ).Anything above and cells can hit over voltage and pack over charge leading to battery failure or worst."

OK, you're making me nervous....
It almost sounds like it would be safer just to disable the float stage, or stop all power at the end of absorption. Why risk damaging the battery (or worse....by which I assume you mean thermal runnaway/fire) just to get storage capacity from 98% to 100% ?

"the float part is the most troublesome because if you don get this one exactly the battery can slowing discharge or slowing over charge."

How much discharge are we talking about here? Wouldn't it be safe to just lowball the estimate at closer to 0.01c of the capacity (if the float stage has to be enabled at all)? I suppose this might lead to balancing issues more quickly? I think each of my batteries' BMSs has their own balancing circuitry to keep the individual cells balanced in each unit, but I was thinking that I would add one of the Victron balancers to my bank to keep the series connected units in good balance.

Thanks again for your help! You've got me thinking about lots of things I hadn't considered. I've started typing a number of different questions for you, and before posting, found the answer almost right in front of me. Sometimes, it's just a matter of figuring out the right question to ask. All the guys here have done a great job of getting me pointed in a better direction. I guess since we're venturing away from the original scope of inquiry, I should look for answers to my new questions in a more appropriate section of the forum....