Wind Classic odd behavior.

[TomW]

Folks;

I have a Clipper feeding a Classic 150 into a 24 volt bank from a nominal 24 volt 12 foot turbine with a wind track I took a WAG on.

The wind track tops out at 60 volts and 50 amps but I hope to keep the turbine below that.

I set the Clipper for about 45 volts max into the Classic or as close as I can by the markings on the pot. Today it claimed "resting" and "low light" but the Local App said 35 volts in as did my voltmeter.

I get very good results most of the time but have an issue quite regularly where the turbine is jamming volts in but the Classic is sitting there like a bump on a log.  Say 35 to 40 volts in and no watts / amps out? The Classics are in Follow Me and are both in Bulk MPPT sitting at 27 volts on the battery or so.

Any idea what is going on?

I hate letting the turbine run free as it is very hard on them running unloaded if a big gust shows up.

Any input appreciated.

Tom

[TomW]

I did not mention it in the original post but this is a DC Clipper.

Tom

[dgd]

Tom,

Maybe I'm completely off track but I though the voltage set pot in the Clipper was only a 'fail safe' to protect the Classic, hence  the 150,200,250 settings. Lower than 150 for the Clipper being used with a non MN CC that had a lower max v input.
So the 35v input and the Classic being a log bump is more likely an issue with the power wind curve in the Classic.
just a thought

dgd

[TomW]

Tom,
So the 35v input and the Classic being a log bump is more likely an issue with the power wind curve in the Classic.
just a thought

dgd

dgd;

I thought that, too so I cranked it up to ~150 and the Classic still just sits there resting with 30 + volts on the input.

I had similar issues with no Clipper on it, also while I waited for a replacement bracket that United Package Smashers apparently damaged in transit.

I have rebooted the Classic several times with no change.

The wind track should load it anywhere above battery voltage enough to get output to the batteries but it just sits there like it is on strike. Maybe I am just not within the capabilities of the controller? Very frustrating to miss needed wind power on these low sun days.

I really want to get this working because it really wakes up my turbine in lower winds where I need it but I simply cannot trust it to keep the turbine loaded because of this issue. I just hooked it directly to the batteries where it works at least some.

Thanks for the response.

Tom

[dgd]

Tom,

Just a couple more thoughts..

I seem to remember reading that the Classic needs 20+ watts on its input before it wakens up.
And do  you power the Clipper from your battery? I'm not sure about the DC version but the AC clipper has inputs on the pcb for
battery + and  -   I assume to power the circuit board. Otherwise the circuit is powered by the DC from the turbine/rectifier.
Also the DC Clipper appears to use a 3 phase bridge rectifier, or half of it on DC +ve,  to provide isolation and prevent any risk of backfeeding from the Classic to the dump resistor bank.
All of this will be consuming a base load from the turbine power input. If you are looking to use low(ish) power production from the turbine then this base load may be defeating your efforts.

dgd

[TomW]

dgd;

All good thoughts.

I am pretty certain there is enough oomph to power the circuits and then some. As I mentioned in the last comment it does this directly connected to the turbine DC or through the Clipper.

You see, it has worked before. It was working this morning and early afternoon.

Inevitably the Classic just decides to ignore the input voltage. It has done this since I first started using it on wind. I am going to connect it to my other solar array and let it run solar awhile see if it operates properly in that role. I am just not willing to trust it to not let my turbine run free. Too much at stake as I cannot repair it myself if it fails.

It seems it should reset itself after a reboot and work but it cycles through that resting .... wait X seconds.. loop a long time before it settles and claims it is in Bulk MPPT mode but pushes no power out. It is NOT a display issue on the Classic, my shunt shows no current flow to the battery and my voltmeter agrees close enough on the input voltage.

Remember I may be a jinx and Murphy follows me around like a lost puppy some days.

Thanks.

Tom

[Halfcrazy]

Tom
Something does sound fishy. If the first step in the Wind curve is say set to 27 volts at 27 volts on the input the Classic should wake up. Something does not sound correct here and it almost exhibits the behavior I have seen after a firmware update and no VMM. What are the first 2 steps set for in voltage?

Murphy tends to follow me a lot so maybe he will head back to Maine and leave you alone for a while

Ryan

[ChrisOlson]

The Classic will wake up with only 2 watts on the input as long as the voltage is high enough to create some power.  I'm not at all familiar with the DC clipper, but I doubt that's the problem.

There's a couple things I can think of that can cause this and one is that the Mode is OFF.  But then it would never work until you turn the Mode to ON.  The other is, what is the battery SOC?  If it's absorb or float, and due to other power sources supplying the necessary amps to maintain the charge stage voltage the Classic will unload the turbine because the available power isn't needed for charging.

So it could be a Follow-Me issue.  I've been experimenting with a "boost charge" profile to reduce the absorb time of our bank using Auto EQ to provide the finish stage charging.  I've noticed that during the 20 minute Equalize if the power from wind turbines isn't needed they're all screaming at 135-140 volts.  When they're doing that the AUX1 can come on and brake one, almost stopping it, and the voltage shown on the display is still at 130 or so while I know the actual is only about 20 to 25 volts.

So I'd take a good look at the voltage offsets in the Tweaks menu, compare the voltage settings in the Charging menu between all the Follow-Me controllers and make sure that they're all compatible.  With Follow-Me controllers with some of them on solar duty and some on wind duty, the solar ones generally dominate.  So if a wind controller "sees" even .2 volts more than a solar controller (on its bank voltage reading), the wind turbine will get unloaded and let the solar do the job.  For that reason I set the battery voltage offset on the wind controllers .2 volts below actual so those controllers don't think they got the battery over charge stage voltage and unload the turbines.

So what I'm saying is, what does your wind controller think the battery voltage is when this is happening, and what's the charge stage?
--
Chris

[TomW]

Chris;

Thanks for the feedback.

The mode is definitely wind track and "on" the Classics seem to agree on voltage. The status was "Bulk MPPT" on both Classics.  I disabled Follow me on the Wind Classic and it made no difference. That was my first troubleshooting step when this first happened. Batteries are in the upper range of S.O.C. but not "full". It has not done this when the batteries are low on charge so it may have to do with battery voltage somehow?

I am at a loss so I have the turbine directly connected to the batteries and the Classic off line. It is too bad because the Classic really wakes up a turbine in the low end where you need the power.  It works sweet when it works.

Remember, Murphy follows me around like a lost puppy! I don't have your skills and tools to recover from a turbine failure so I err on the side of protecting my baby.

Appreciate the feedback, Chris!

Tom

[ChrisOlson]

Any chance you could fire that Classic up, export the wind curve out of the Status Panel and post it?

I think you said you verified the input voltage at the controller input terminals?

What firmware version you got in that controller?  And have you done a Vulcan Mind Meld on it, to make sure the latest features of the firmware are properly loaded?  I ran into some issues with that when I was trying out beta firmware.  There's a lot of settings in there that COULD cause that, and without know what they all are it's difficult to diagnose.

From what I've seen, it's not abnormal when a turbine spools up to have the voltage go over the first step in the power curve for a bit before the controller wakes up and "grabs" it.  It could be that you are so close to battery voltage on that first step that it's not seeing enough power there to mess with when the bank voltage is up aways above nominal?

You have to remember that as soon as the controller "grabs" the turbine the "clamp" voltage drops quite a bit from open voltage so the turbine generator will produce amps.  How much it drops depends on stator resistance and line resistance, and how much loss you got in the rectifier.  So the open voltage can be saying 30 (or whatever) but as soon as it gets loaded the required "clamp" drops below actual bank voltage before the turbine will produce amps, and then the controller just goes back to Resting because it can't get any power from the turbine.

I got a spreadsheet that I designed to figure all that out for initial programming of a turbine's power curve.  That difference between open voltage and clamp voltage can bite you with a MPPT controller on wind power.  Especially on long wire runs or turbines with high-resistance stators (or even a bad connection on on leg of the three phase).  Direct hooked the turbine might be running at 32-33 (peak) volts at the generator while the actual bank voltage is only 25.  When you put that turbine on a Classic, that doesn't change.  So as soon as it loads the turbine if the actual voltage (under load) drops to bank voltage the controller goes "Whoa - this ain't workin" and it dumps the turbine until it spools up some more.
--
Chris

[TomW]

Chris;

I did a VMM on it when I installed the 1370 firmware from 4-08-2012 on both the MNGP and Classic. Same setup as my solar Classic.

I have about 300 foot of an overhead run of AL Triplex like you see as meter drops to homes not sure but 00 I think. #6 down the tower to rectifiers (100 feet total run one way) and about 10 feet of #6 from triplex end to controller. In case it is not obvious, I feed DC from the tower base to the power room.

If I get ahead of the HoneyDo list today I will fire it up and grab the wind track that is on it and post it. Thing is, I tweaked it trying to get it to load the turbine when this happened the last time. I have been tweaking the curve since I started using it on wind as I started with a WAG. I think I had it pretty close because it was making the turbine shine in the low end where I need it. Nice weather finally got here so I will go do a wiring audit if I get ahead of things here and ensure winter did not toss me a connections curve.

Thanks.

Tom

[TomW]

Got a bit of time to mess with this so I audited the wiring and all seems well.

I did another VMM on the Classic. Reconnected the turbine and fired up the Classic. Battery is under load and voltage is lower than the turbine incoming. Absolutely no change. No charging with 40 volts incoming. Shorting the turbine input yields a nice, fat spark and vaporized one of the strands on the cable that got in between the turbine calbes on the sdhort test. Seems to be power there?

Turbine is shorted so it doesn't run away which is a real concern with no load in the gusty winds today. I am going to reconnect it to the battery direct so I can get something out of it until we sort out what is going on.

Attaching the current track for your viewing pleasure. Remember I have been messing with it to try to get a load on the turbine so it is different than what I had when this started. That track seemed a good match so wish I had been smart and saved it. Duh.

Just an update.

Tom

[ChrisOlson]

Well, this is what your wind curve looks like (attached).  This is totally SNAFU'd.  Let me fix it for you and I'll repost the repaired CSV and you can try that.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

Tom, load this sucker in there and try it.

Some comments on this - you should have your first step somewhat above battery voltage.  And you should try to keep the steps as evenly spaced as possible.  I noticed you tried to "clamp" the turbine at 29 volts for a long time with a big gap in output amps.  Don't do that.  Let that turbine RUN.  Don't be afraid to let 'er spin.  The generator is more efficient if you let the voltage rise, and so are the blades if you keep their tip speed up around 6-7.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

I had to post the CSV in a separate post because the other one would not take two attachments.
--
Chris