Classic with Lithium Ion?

[StrataNetNZ]

That is a Hugh difference the Studer here was more than $1400 with taxes, duties and all. I paid $610. For my Classic 150 from Northern Arizona Wind Sun , no tax and $629.00 to my door!

Nice! But wow that is fairly steep for the Studer!

[tecnodave]

Oh how well I understand, I used to do land mobile two radio and have driven to many a mountain top and snowmobiles to a few to service two radio equipment in California and in Alaska before that, remote monitoring is a blessing in that instance. I did communications from 1965 thru 1980 before the Internet was popular. We rigged CCTV cameras to monitor equipment back then.

td

[StrataNetNZ]

Oh how well I understand, I used to do land mobile two radio and have driven to many a mountain top and snowmobiles to a few to service two radio equipment in California and in Alaska before that, remote monitoring is a blessing in that instance. I did communications from 1965 thru 1980 before the Internet was popular. We rigged CCTV cameras to monitor equipment back then.

td

That's awesome! If only my job could involve snow mobiles! No snow for miles from here (gotta head quite far South, being this side of the hemisphere)! We do a little bit of surveillance on the side too.

[tecnodave]

After buying Chinese I wanted equipment that would be supported and when I checked on MidNite I found that they were involved in several companies that I know well, I have Bob Carver stereo gear that robin worked on when he was much younger as well as Phase Linear and Trace Inverters so I know their quality well. Having done electricity sinse 1965 I do appreciate high quality gear. I am surprised at myself for buying that Chinese stuff when I know full well of the quality coming out of China. As to the Studer I could find only one dealer in the US. I was set on the Morningstar until I discovered MidNite.

[tecnodave]

Well you can have all the snow you want, I was born and raised in the backwoods of Alaska, had 21 years of it before I moved to the lower 48! Love California but I do go bakk to Alaska for the freedom and awesome fishin! Just can't beat backwoods Alaska fishin! 50 pound Salmon just jumpin on the hook, but when the snow gets to 18 inches I am outta there!

[StrataNetNZ]

Yeah, before this job I worked in an electronics shop and most of the stuff we sold was re-branded Chinese stuff. Most of it was absolute rubbish! We got the odd thing that worked well but most things were unreliable or lacked functionality. And it's pretty hard to sell a product that you have no faith in!

And Alaska sounds great - I'd love to head there eventually to see what it's like. The snow is quite a luxury for us!

[tecnodave]

I've worked in electronics since the mid 60's but was always into the high end stuff, I never did consumer stuff. There is a Hugh difference in quality. I did bush plane radios, land mobile, early car phones, marine, etc. Did a lot of time at Motorola so I am spoiled, I have never liked doing consumer grade built for a price. In communications it was always made in USA with few exceptions.

Alaska is so beautiful in the summer you fall in love with it but winters take their toll, if you go don't before June and leave before October, the winters are brutal. I did 23 of them, that is why I am here on the left coast, but when the fishing is good, I get that Alaska fever again. Tall young mountains and sea level valleys full of wildlife that is a experience that most people never forget.

I guess I will need to research NZ some more, I thought you were south enough to get some snow there. I remember snowmobiling up to Blue Ridge Mountain at 8000 feet in Southern California (south east of Los Angeles)to service a radio repeater there, of course because I had more experience in the snow I was volunteered to do that job.

I do like snow but 86 below at Fairbanks is a bit much. I have also seen 55 feet of snow and snowstorms that were a total whiteout. You could not even go out into it ,you would get lost and they find you in the spring. Alaska has more satellite dishes and DVD's per capita than anywhere in the world! Cabin fever! The first time we got a sunrise in the spring there would be a huge party! In the middle of June the sun is high in the sky by 3:00 am and sets at 11:30pm, never gets dark ,hard to sleep, we used blackout curtains. I miss it but not the brutal winters.

[StrataNetNZ]

Yeah, I tend to try an avoid the unknowns as far as brands go!

I could imagine that the snow could be trouble! -86 sounds like a lot (of course I had to Google it to convert to Celsius, haha)! Crazy that the days are so long there too!

We definitely have a fair bit of snow in NZ, but nowhere near Auckland where we're located (which is great considering all the wireless gear that we use up here!). The North Island only gets snow on the mountains, but I know the South Island sees a lot of snow further down - but I've never been down that way in the Winter. I've seen it on Lord of the Rings and plenty of photos though!

[Cniemand]

I have been running an Off-Grid Home for over 200 days now on LiFePo4 Batteries. 16 cells. 100aH each. Comes out to a 5kWh bank. Which is more than enough for me when I use on average 2 throughout the day and only need the capacity at night. I have a 2000watt array and a 200V midnite solar charge controller. Of course living in the mountains in Colorado, I luck out without having to need huge days worth of backup.

I would say, the Midnite Solar CC works great. Having the ability to modify all the voltages makes it perfect for 'custom' chemistries.

As far as LiFePo4 is concerned. You do not need a BMS, but you do have to be determined in the beginning to make sure they are all bottom balanced before you string them all together for their first charge. So long as you bottom balanced them, they do not drift from each other or self-discharge etc.

[offgridQLD]

A few points,
                      The grills for the classic charge controller are included they should be in the box. We all make mistakes but it makes me wonder when a installer can't wire up a simple charge controller correctly. I know little of the other brand you ended up with but you usually get what you pay for so im sure its a nice unit. I  can agree the price variance across the globe needs to be taken into consideration it can make a difference.  If NZ pricing is anything like AU a classic is around $1000 or so. Yes I see them online over in the US for $600 US but then there is shipping to add on. A charge controller is the kind of product you want local back up for if there was a issue so I don't mind paying the premium for that.

Regarding the lithium (lifepo4) basically the BMS is just the last resort kill switch if things go astray. Voltage (somtimes temp is its a good one) to high, low on any cell then it pulls the pin and its lights out . With a reliable charge controller like the classic you really just need to tweak the voltage limits to avoid both ends and the BMS shouldn't come it to play at all unless something went wrong. A well balance pack and reasonable conservative charge profile avoiding the knee at both ends and you should have a very stable pack without the need for much balancing work. With a initial balance things should stay in check  regarding balance again if you avoided the knee (perhaps sacrificing 5 o 10% capacity by doing so) Some bms will include a balancing build into the BMS but typically on large cells (on cell) balancing shunts that run interdependently are more common. Often with a conservative charge voltage limits the balancing will not be activated and a once a month charge to the trigger point of the balancing board is all that is needed to keep a pack in check.

Given the criteria for charge controller that is compatible with lithium battery is one that has full user control voltage limits  at all stages of charging and the classic has this its more than compatible with lithium.

When my 63kwh of lead acid is retired I will be going to lithium cells as many have already.

Kurt

[RossW]

When my 63kwh of lead acid is retired I will be going to lithium cells as many have already.

I'm just waiting on my "starter kit" to arrive.
16 x 300AH LiFePO4 cells (about 14kWh).
Cell balancers (not merely the "this cell is full, waste power as heat" cell levelers) arrived yesterday and a quick test on the bench looks good.

[offgridQLD]

I will be downsizing to from 48V 1300Ah 2v cells (lead acid ) to 400Ah at 48V around 20kwh of lithium made up of 16 x 400Ah Calb lifpo4 cells being charged by two classic 150's and 8.2kw of PV.

I just cant kill the flooded lead acid. At them moment I am doing my best to give them a hard time. Running the house, Charging a Electric car and running a workshop, plasma cutters, welders and so on but they keep on ticking...to much sunshine here in QLD Australia. They are just on 6 years old I am guessing they will last another 4 years then its lithium.

No one ever regrets going to lithium cells.

Kurt

[TomW]

I will be downsizing to from 48V 1300Ah 2v cells (lead acid ) to 400Ah at 48V around 20kwh of lithium made up of 16 x 400Ah Calb lifpo4 cells being charged by two classic 150's and 8.2kw of PV.

I just cant kill the flooded lead acid. At them moment I am doing my best to give them a hard time. Running the house, Charging a Electric car and running a workshop, plasma cutters, welders and so on but they keep on ticking...to much sunshine here in QLD Australia. They are just on 6 years old I am guessing they will last another 4 years then its lithium.

No one ever regrets going to lithium cells.

Kurt

Kurt;

I am at the end of life on my 450 AH 24 Volt traction battery set at 11 years in use.

I have been looking into lead acids to replace but lithium is looking vert tasty to me. A bit expensive but seem to be more tolerant of (a)buse. It also seems like you can mix different age batteries if you want to upscale your capacity after you have had them awhile?

We hope to go off grid one day soon and lifespan and deep discharges may push me into lithium as they seem to provide longer service and more KW in / out for the cost but still not sure. I am not real big on being the guinea pig for expensive new technologies so I hope it is true that no one regrets going lithium!.

Tom

[Westbranch]

Kurt, have you looked into this option, the small 5Kw/10Kwh unit that can be 'stacked'? Very interesting...

http://redflow.com/

[StrataNetNZ]

The grills for the classic charge controller are included they should be in the box. We all make mistakes but it makes me wonder when a installer can't wire up a simple charge controller correctly. I know little of the other brand you ended up with but you usually get what you pay for so im sure its a nice unit. I  can agree the price variance across the globe needs to be taken into consideration it can make a difference.  If NZ pricing is anything like AU a classic is around $1000 or so. Yes I see them online over in the US for $600 US but then there is shipping to add on. A charge controller is the kind of product you want local back up for if there was a issue so I don't mind paying the premium for that.

Our grills weren't included - when I asked, our provider said that they're an option that you buy separately (and yes reading online they were supposed to be supplied).

Basically the issue was is that when the system was first installed a few years ago, the polarity of the panel outputs was mixed up, resulting in blue for positive and red for negative. Very confusing when someone else (in this case me) comes along and tries to change the controller over!

I think the Classic 250 was $1,700 over here! It was a while ago so I can't recall exactly but it wasn't a cheap unit, that's for sure! And yeah, our supplier doesn't really deal with them so advised against them anyway.